To Arm or to Disarm.

[smmatrix 11]

For ya'll from down under saying that gun control works, read this letter written by a Police Officer in Australia:

 

 

From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia

 

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

 

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to

surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

 

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,

Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

 

In the state of Victoria.....

lone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

 

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

 

The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

 

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?

WHY? You will need it.

[Tams 20]

For ya'll from down under saying that gun control works, read this letter written by a Police Officer in Australia:

 

 

From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia

 

Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

 

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to

surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

 

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,

Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

 

In the state of Victoria.....

lone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent.(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

 

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns....' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.

 

The Australian experience speaks for itself. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

 

Take note Americans, before it's too late!

Will you be one of the sheep to turn yours in?

WHY? You will need it.

 

I have been waiting for you to post this piece of s.

You are so predictable.

 

READ THIS:

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

[Ingot54 13]

I am not returning to the thread to debate or discuss, but to show the arms-toting-self-defending-gun-nutsos that there is indeed another way.

 

Put away your gun ... stop oiling it for 5 minutes ... yes ... you - put the damn thang in the locked cupboard and secure the key for just one hour - one hour ... and see if there is another way.

 

Please - do not comment on this video if you have not watched it right through.

 

If you make the effort, you might find another kind of hope.

 

(Posted in another thread)

 

[smmatrix 11]

I have been waiting for you to post this piece of s.

You are so predictable.

 

READ THIS:

snopes.com: Australian Guns Stats

 

There's still an increase in gun crimes after strict gun laws were passed. It may not be as much as the guy claimed, depending on who's statistics you're counting, but guns laws have increased gun violence... plain and simple.

[MightyMouse 12]

There's still an increase in gun crimes after strict gun laws were passed. It may not be as much as the guy claimed, depending on who's statistics you're counting, but guns laws have increased gun violence... plain and simple.

 

When you grow up, you'll realize how foolish your claim is. Your forefathers didn't want you to be foolish. So, don't be.

[SIUYA 11]

There's still an increase in gun crimes after strict gun laws were passed. It may not be as much as the guy claimed, depending on who's statistics you're counting, but guns laws have increased gun violence... plain and simple.

 

could not help myself......

 

smmatrix - please get a lesson in statistics about causation....until then - you actually do your side in the debate a disservice....these might help you. But of course it depends on whose stats you use....

 

Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide statistics

Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide weapon statistics

Australian Institute of Criminology - Robbery statistics

 

they quote...." The rate of homicide in Australia remains at about 1.2 incidents per 100,000 of the population with most of these involving family or domestic relationships."

 

as an example " In contrast, there was an overall decrease in male victimisation from 1.8 per 100,000 males in 2006–07 (n=185) down to 1.5 per 100,000 males in 2007–08 (n=161). Further, while there was an increase in the proportion of both acquaintance-type homicides from 2006–07 (36%) to 2007–08 (42%), and family-type homicides from 2006–07 (15%) to 2007–08 (24%), male victimisations in stranger-type homicides decreased to 16 percent in 2007–08 (from 25% in 2006–07)."

"In general, most homicide incidents in 2007–08 were domestic homicides involving one or more victims who shared a family or domestic relationship with the offender. Intimate partner homicides comprised the largest proportion of domestic homicides (60%)."

 

best watch out for those you live closest with .....

 

i am sure you will draw your own conclusions to fit your beliefs, kindly reminding many that the culture of the USA and that of Australia may also have marked differences that have an effect......until lthen please continue to trade in the markets using your statistical knowledge.

thank you have a nice day and please come again.

[smmatrix 11]

could not help myself......

 

smmatrix - please get a lesson in statistics about causation....until then - you actually do your side in the debate a disservice....these might help you. But of course it depends on whose stats you use....

 

Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide statistics

Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide weapon statistics

Australian Institute of Criminology - Robbery statistics

 

they quote...." The rate of homicide in Australia remains at about 1.2 incidents per 100,000 of the population with most of these involving family or domestic relationships."

 

as an example " In contrast, there was an overall decrease in male victimisation from 1.8 per 100,000 males in 2006–07 (n=185) down to 1.5 per 100,000 males in 2007–08 (n=161). Further, while there was an increase in the proportion of both acquaintance-type homicides from 2006–07 (36%) to 2007–08 (42%), and family-type homicides from 2006–07 (15%) to 2007–08 (24%), male victimisations in stranger-type homicides decreased to 16 percent in 2007–08 (from 25% in 2006–07)."

"In general, most homicide incidents in 2007–08 were domestic homicides involving one or more victims who shared a family or domestic relationship with the offender. Intimate partner homicides comprised the largest proportion of domestic homicides (60%)."

 

best watch out for those you live closest with .....

 

i am sure you will draw your own conclusions to fit your beliefs, kindly reminding many that the culture of the USA and that of Australia may also have marked differences that have an effect......until lthen please continue to trade in the markets using your statistical knowledge.

thank you have a nice day and please come again.

 

[zdo 20]

Folks – on both sides of this argument - we really need to get away from citing statistics. When dealing with human culture and society, statistics are tools for lying - mostly about causation.

 

… even Snopes tells the ‘truth’ to build and maintain credibility, then when it suits them to lie, they twist stats with the best of them…

 

… etc…

[Perrin 10]

Wouldn't a society without any guns be a nicer society to live in?

[smmatrix 11]

Wouldn't a society without any guns be a nicer society to live in?

 

Yes, it sure would, and if you can take all the weapons away from the government, criminals, and ill-minded people, there would be bliss.

 

but of course, this is just a fantasy, and we must stay awake to all possibilities.

[SunTrader 10]

........

 

thank you have a nice day and please come again.

 

 

Oh they will again and again no matter the reality they refuse to face.

 

Used to be (in the 50's, 60's & 70's) parents were concered about their children imitating the Three Stooges "might poke someone's eye out" or Superman "might break your arm jumping off a porch trying fly"

 

Modern times is imitating Rambo or The Rock or a video game shooter and bang, bang you die for real, accidental or otherwise.

[SunTrader 10]

Long before the 2nd amendment there was:

 

"The word is mightier than the sword."

 

"The tongue is mightier than the blade."

 

"Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart."

 

"The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr".

 

and the most famous of all, although a lot more recent (1839) than the other quotes:

 

"The pen is mightier than the sword"

[zdo 20]

SunTrader, not sure exactly what your points are lately.

 

For example,

Easier said than done sitting behind a computer keyboard.

 

...

 

…almost every act a human can do is easier said than done…

one breath, probably ‘easier done than said’… two breaths – already over the threshold and is easier said than done…

 

and btw, warrior is not something that is ‘said’ anyway… it is something done from within. Words get in the way of real warrior.

 

... and...Few are or should be ‘full time’warriors… but everyone – even the weakest among us - should be in touch with that side of themselves… for their own wholeness and safety, etc.

 

so - to modernize the phrase for us traders ---

“Better to be a warrior sitting in front of a trading screen than a trader in the war.”

 

...

 

the points of your other recent 'truisms' and 'quips' - just as smoggy...

just saying ...

:helloooo:

:haha:

...anytime you're making less sense than me, it's time to ...

[zdo 20]

Wouldn't a society without any guns be a nicer society to live in?

 

well duh

 

while we're fantasizing...

lately, I'm thinking a 'society' without addictions would even be a nicer society to live in than one without efficient lethal weapons.

[SunTrader 10]

.......anytime you're making less sense than me, it's time to ...

 

Pack it in.

 

:shrug:

 

But don't worry if you are paranoid about the government someday coming to take away your arsenal. You are probably right to be paranoid because the unreasonable gun owners on the right will be overmatched (yes, overmatched) by the unreasonable gun seizure types on the left if something can't be worked out.

 

And all of us in the middle will get to say ITYS. Google it if you don't know it already.

[Patuca 13]

Philippines shootings illustrate worldwide gun violence problem - Yahoo! News

 

apparently gun control doesn´t work in phiilipines either

[MightyMouse 12]

Philippines shootings illustrate worldwide gun violence problem - Yahoo! News

 

apparently gun control doesn´t work in phiilipines either

 

There is a huge drug problem in the Philippines. Drugs = guns = murder. If there were more guns there would be more murder. The Philippines should thank God that there are so few guns or it would be a lot worse. Delve deeper and your response will appear to be more objective.

[smmatrix 11]

There is a huge drug problem in the Philippines. Drugs = guns = murder.

 

Not true. I've lived in Cebu, Philippines for the past five years and I can assure you the drug problem in the U.S. is far worse. Yes, you may have a greater amount of glue sniffers in the Philippines, but little else. Penalty for getting caught with hard drugs = life in prison. This is the case with much of Southeast Asia including Thailand, Singapore and most other countries. Drug users are short lived on the streets.

[Tams 20]

I have lived in The Philippines (Subic Bay), and have traveled extensively in the country; please do not make remote comments on things you do not have an intimate knowledge of.

Anybody trying to justify automatic hicap assault rifle ownership in USA by making comparison to the situation in The Philippines, has really ran out of legitimate excuses. You might as well make a comparison to Congo in Africa.

[MightyMouse 12]

Not true. I've lived in Cebu, Philippines for the past five years and I can assure you the drug problem in the U.S. is far worse. Yes, you may have a greater amount of glue sniffers in the Philippines, but little else. Penalty for getting caught with hard drugs = life in prison. This is the case with much of Southeast Asia including Thailand, Singapore and most other countries. Drug users are short lived on the streets.

 

It looks like your glue sniffers found P1billiona a day to spend on Meth when you weren't looking.

I am sure the that the dealers and traffickers are concerned about the hard time they might do if they don't continue to pay off law enforcement while they drive their sick ass Bentleys.

(Shabu).Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) or Ecstasy. Marijuana.Cocaine. Ephedrine.

 

These are some of the commonly abused drugs in the Philippines. Recently, the drug problem is quite alarming.The increasing number of arrested drug traffickers, seizures of big volumes of dangerous drugs, controlled precursors and essential chemicals and dismantling of clandestine laboratories since the conception of the Philippine Drug Enforcement Agency show the extent and impact of the drug abuse and drug trade problem in the Philippines.

 

The illegal trade of methamphetamine hydrochloride commonly known as "shabu" has grown into a P1 billion-a-day industry, but the drug has now become more expensive, making it “the poor man’s cocaine no more,” antinarcotics officials and international drug reports said. Recently, the average street price of "shabu" in the Philippines ranges from P15,000.00 - P17,000.00 depending on the demographical location (regional, provincial, city, or municipal). The increase of prices of shabu was due to the government success on dismantling of clandistine laboratories nationwide.

 

 

Thus, these problems don't limit on trafficking and production of drugs but go beyond the problem of drug addiction. Drug addiction is the cradle of heinous crimes committed by persons. 65% of the suspects are drug addicts. Drug addiction respects no boundaries.

 

The worsening drug abuse in the country can be gleaned from the fact that in 1972, there were only 20,000 drug users in the Philippines. In 2004, this figure has climbed to an astounding 6.7 million. Methamphetamine hydrochloride or "shabu" and marijuana are the illegal drugs preferred by one in every 29 Filipinos aged 10 to 44 years.

 

While drug abuse is alarming in the country, the government is strong fisted in the fight of eradicating the supply and demand of illegal drugs.Thus, drug lords, big time drug pushers and transnational syndicates are laughing their way to their banks using the "dirty money" which is the proceeds of illegal drugs and invest the money to legitimate businesses. They are having a field day destroying lives and future of the people courtesy of inutile and corrupt government agencies.

 

The law enforcers cannot do it alone.The prosecutors and judges cannot move on without harmonious relationship. The problem rest upon us. It starts within ourselves.

 

Schools, churches, civic organizations, non-government organizations and private groups and individuals must all do their share and contribute to the battle against illegal drugs.

 

This country cannot afford to waste its future to drug addiction. If the war on illegal drugs is lost, the future of the country will follow the wrong direction. Despite and in spite of the government, Filipinos must remain resolute in their resolve to win the war against illegal drugs.

 

PLEASE WATCH THIS PRESENTATION... MAY EVERYONE CAN REALIZE THE EFFECTS OF ILLEGAL DRUGS.

[Patuca 13]

There is a huge drug problem in the Philippines. Drugs = guns = murder. If there were more guns there would be more murder. The Philippines should thank God that there are so few guns or it would be a lot worse. Delve deeper and your response will appear to be more objective.

actually it might be right the opposite (at least for public deaths) if the public could defend themselves against the drug people. they are outgunned as in mexico..honduras...etc. police are out gunned....people shaking in their boots...no recourse..no guns to fight back with....so they can kill the bastards. they are at the mercy of the drug people. gov can't handle it. people should be armed to the teeth and put some FEAR in the drug people and gangs.

 

in mexico drug people hang people in broad daylight from the main roads at pedestrian cross ways over the highway. they do this in broad daylight ..in the city...in the day...in front of public...they hang them by their feet via a rope ALIVE above the highway then in plain view of the public they shoot them. Public shaking in their boots...no arms or if they happen to have an illegal pea shooters it isn't powerful enough. afraid to use it...so mr MM IF you lived there would you like to ramble around unarmed in city and see this happen? other times they may at random capture off the street 15 to 20 people...take them off. chop their hands and feet off then chop their heads off and load them back up and in broad daylight dump the bodies on the roads in the cities. other times they open fire publically on groups of people at random. police can't handle it. military can't handle it...ONLY the people could if they were armed as well as the drug people and trained to shoot and kill the bastards on the spot wherever, whenever. put some fear in the drug cartels. then of course it might help if USA would cut down on drug consumption.

 

however you want to legalize drugs. i suppose you think that doing so would eliminate the cartels. may i ask you a couple of questons?

 

1) is cocaine dangerous? meth? acid? ....etc

 

2) are guns dangerous?

Edited January 5, 2013 by Patuca

[Patuca 13]

I don't think you have read my responses. You have mistaken my stance.

 

I was in the military; I was trained in using guns. I have fired more rounds than you will ever in your life time. I was a marksman, I know all about guns, and how to use them, including using them as self defense machines and killing machines.

 

which all means nada...zip..zero..sh$t..if you ain't got a peashooter to shoot with.

[Patuca 13]

I have lived in The Philippines (Subic Bay), and have traveled extensively in the country; please do not make remote comments on things you do not have an intimate knowledge of.

Anybody trying to justify automatic hicap assault rifle ownership in USA by making comparison to the situation in The Philippines, has really ran out of legitimate excuses. You might as well make a comparison to Congo in Africa.

tams why don't you go live in philippines in the "drug infested section" and MM lets say in honduras (i could take MM to good place to live..there lots of action (i.e. bad action)....lets say live there for 5 years...no guns..allowed...get a taste of the fear the people face....you might be singing a different song when you come back after seeing bodies hacked up with machetes..mowed down with guns..and no way to stop it. i am not so sure these drug people can be sweet talked into laying down their arms..know what i mean? ...do you catch my drift?....perhaps mm could convince them it is best if they disarm. if you guys can cure the evil without arms then i might listen to you...however, doubt you would live very long.

[Patuca 13]

It looks like your glue sniffers found P1billiona a day to spend on Meth when you weren't looking.

I am sure the that the dealers and traffickers are concerned about the hard time they might do if they don't continue to pay off law enforcement while they drive their sick ass Bentleys.

(Shabu)

 

The law enforcers cannot do it alone.The prosecutors and judges cannot move on without harmonious relationship. The problem rest upon us. It starts within ourselves.

 

Schools, churches, civic organizations, non-government organizations and private groups and individuals must all do their share and contribute to the battle against illegal drugs.

 

This country cannot afford to waste its future to drug addiction. If the war on illegal drugs is lost, the future of the country will follow the wrong direction. Despite and in spite of the government, Filipinos must remain resolute in their resolve to win the war against illegal drugs.

 

finally somebody with some sense. gov should allow all churches civic organizations,,private groups and individuals arm to the hilt and get some basic training in use of arms and then turn them loose to kill the bastards anywhere anytime for any reason. soon it will stop...once they are all dead. they cannot win against an armed public.

[MightyMouse 12]

actually it might be right the opposite. the public could defend themselves against the drug people. they are outgunned as in mexico..honduras...etc. police are out gunned....people shaking in their boots...no recourse..no guns to fight back with....so they can kill the bastards. they are at the mercy of the drug people. gov can't handle it. people should be armed to the teeth and put some FEAR in the drug people and gangs.

 

in mexico drug people hang people in broad daylight from the main roads at pedestrian cross ways over the highway. they do this in broad daylight ..in the city...in the day...in front of public...they hang them by their feet via a rope ALIVE above the highway then in plain view of the public they shoot them. Public shaking in their boots...no arms or if they happen to have an illegal pea shooters it isn't powerful enough. afraid to use it...so mr MM IF you lived there would you like to ramble around unarmed in city and see this happen? other times they may at random capture off the street 15 to 20 people...take them off. chop their hands and feet off then chop their heads off and load them back up and in broad daylight dump the bodies on the roads in the cities. other times they open fire publically on groups of people at random. police can't handle it. military can't handle it...ONLY the people could if they were armed as well as the drug people and trained to shoot and kill the bastards on the spot wherever, whenever. put some fear in the drug cartels. then of course it might help if USA would cut down on drug consumption.

 

however you want to legalize drugs. i suppose you think that doing so would eliminate the cartels. may i ask you a couple of questons?

 

1) is cocaine dangerous? meth? acid? ....etc

 

2) are guns dangerous?

The cartels would go into other businesses or become legitimate drug producers. The illegal drug trade would be pointless. Drug related crime would sink. Likely, there would be a marginal increase in other crimes, but nothing in comparison to the crimes that are committed regularly to attain money to purchase drugs or to steal drugs, etc.

 

Drugs are dangerous. That is why I do not do them. That is also why I have taught my children not to take them. I personally do not need a government to police my family to prevent us from taking drugs, drinking, etc.

 

It should be clear to most that drugs are available everywhere. If you really want them, then you can get them easily. If they were legal in a manner such as alcohol is legal then, you can have them but you wouldn't have to go to bad areas to buy them and they would be a much higher and safer quality.

 

As odd as that might sound, it will save lives. If, for instance, you had a 21 year old child who wanted to smoke pot, would you rather him buy it from a state regulated "pot store" or would you rather him go to the seedy end of town to buy it in an alley? I won't even bother talking about the huge savings from fighting a futile BS war against drugs. The lure of easy money is too high. It's a whac-a-mole prospect. Dealers keep popping up when you get rid of one.

 

You might think that this would increase drug use and it may, but if someone wants to get hammered everyday today, they already can and a lot already do and that is really not my problem. I do not think that legalizing drugs will tremendously increase the number of habitual users. If it does, it will be at a fraction of both the financial cost and cost of lives if done properly.

 

Guns are dangerous. So are nail guns, chain saws, circular saws, and as your friend pointed out, so are hammers. Cars, and houlsold chemicals as far as accidental loss of life is concerned are far more deadly than guns. The ranking of accidental death is Cars 34% poisoning 24%, and then accidental death by firearms is .5%. We would save more lives if the goal were to save the most lives for the least amount of money if we spent time and money educating drivers, prohibiting dui, etc. Aside from accidental death, guns are the primary weapon of choice for homicide: 71%. Would there be less homicide with less guns? yes. Would there be less attempted homicides with less guns? I don't know, but probably not. I think there would be more unsuccessful attempts. The primary way to reduce crime of almost every type is to make drugs legal.

 

Your solution of arming everyone ( I really don't think you mean it, but I am still making you the owner of it since you said it) would double the number of accidental death by firearms in the same way that you would double the number of accidental death by poisoning if you double the households that have poison. there are 47 million gun owners and 600 or so accidental shooting deaths. With 100 million gun owners it is safe to assume that we would have 1200 accidental deaths by shootings. So, if arming everyone saved 20 of the 26 people that died in Sandyhook, it would come at a cost of 600 additional accidental shooting deaths. I would rather gun ownership stay the way it is.

 

I would prefer that guns are prevented from being in the the hands of law abiding citizens who should not be allowed to possess a weapon. I would also recommend that a gun owner be made responsible for the proper sale or disposition of a firearm currently in their possession.

 

If you are a law abiding citizen who should be allowed to own a gun and take the steps to properly dispose of a gun when you no longer want it, or want to sell it, then you will have no issue.