SIUYA

the hunt brothers are a classic. Enron definately... IMHO.... I dont think the crude oil short covering rally is manipulation though - that to me is a trade, the hedge fund trade is an interesting one - on one hand i view that as a trade as well, and yet Corporate shennanigans are were the biggest manipulations occur and this is an example of good - the reason i see it as this is because they did not set the price, they simply took advantage of a situation - clearly this would not be possible on every takeover. I have seen other examples whereby takeovers are thwarted by corporate negotiations, or someone holding out....think about it this way - you have a company that is practically bankrupt in a dying industry etc...you are short, and then some m..f comes in and takes it over --- is that a manipulation? I would not think so. ............... Here is an other example recently which is more a trade IMHO. Apple raised $17bill in bonds yet has all this cash on hand - tax arbitrage reasons - but is this gaming the system, perfectly sensible or manipulation? http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2013/05/apples-bond-issue ......I am more interested in the examples that affect everyday accounts, OR real big time true manipulations like trying to corner the markets. Was the London whale an example?

Mark to market v Mark to Model (a simple example within a firm) A lot of manipulation of prices occurs because of issues surrounding mark to market v theoretical valuations. Basically when portfolios or individual instruments are traded the easiest way to keep track of them is via a PL....and the two simplest ways to keep track of a PL is. Mark-to-Model refers to the practice of pricing a position or portfolio at prices determined by financial models, in contrast to allowing the market to determine the price. Often the use of models is necessary where a market for the financial product is not available, such as with complex financial instruments. Mark to Market refers to using market prices as the most accurate measure of a PL. Believing that the market knows best and is the most accurate measure of what a portfolios value is at any given time. Each has their advantages and disadvantages, various firms use different approaches and ideally the best ones use a combination to ensure fraud and internal accounting manipulations dont occur. So how does this show it self in market manipulation? The simplest way markets are manipulated as a result of this is when a trader is trying to hide the PL of a position by ensuring the market prices reflect 'what they want' as opposed to what the market is really prepared to trade at.(**) Usually this is only possible in the more illiquid or over the counter products available, and often in derivative prices that have different 'valuation' methods....as the more established liquid markets push prices back to a more market determined price pretty quickly. Why would a trader do this? .....money. Imagine a trader has a short position in an option series that is rarely traded - his model says its worth $1....but he knows if he can get it marked in the market at $0.70 his PL looks better than maybe it would if he had to exit the position. Who knows - maybe the trader is about to be paid a bonus and wants to mark it there for a few weeks to get a bigger bonus. ......risk In much the same way sometimes a trader may wish to alter the risk profile that the risk managers of their firm monitor, by showing a reduced risk of the overall portfolio. They can sometimes do this by altering what the risk managers beleive the prices are. Again internal risk controls 'should' pick this up....but often dont or are ignored. .........margin Modifying prices can also help with margining requirements as many margining systems base the amounts required as margin directly off the prices that are set. How do they do this? If the instrument is not very liquid a lot will be determined on how their internal systems work, and or the exchanges work - there is often a degree of gaming the system (which does not necessarily make it fraudulent) Lets say the instrument is listed on an exchange and is a rarely traded option series, but it has a big open position and so can affect a lot of PLs and margining requirements. The exchange every day sends out a close of day price which is the offical price to determine margins, risk, PL etc, and this exchange price (the mark to market price) is set by the last sale price, or if there is not a last sale for the day a theoretical model. The trader can either sell one contact occasionally to force the price down, or make markets without trading to give the impression that the price is lower than it should be. Often other traders will not either trade against them as they have the same position as well, are smaller and hence dont want to trade against the biggest guys in the room, dont trade the more illiquid series as it ties up resources or simply base their prices off what the exchanges say....and hence traders can manipulate some prices over a period of time. for OTC trades then unless there is a market whereby buyers and sellers freely transact and it is transparent then its even easier to set prices at particular levels and keep them there, until demand or supply forces you change them. ................ There are advantages and disadvantages in any system but to me this is where a lot of the problems occur at a base level. Usually it is small scale stuff that individual traders or managers use to hide things or paint a rosier picture of their portfolios - and usually ultimately its demand and supply that catches up with and reveals the real prices. Unfortunately the bigger the problem, the more tempting it is to hide the issue and not in any fraudulent way but almost as this is how its done, so dont rock the boat. when it comes to derivatives and intra firm portfolios - they usually expire and hence either need to be rolled or the position unwound, but there have been many firms left with 'time bombs' whereby the true extent of a problem has been hidden until well after a trader has been paid or left the firm....but in the meantime if you are sitting watching and wondering why a certain option series if constantly priced differently - this might explain it. (**As a lot of it has to do with accounting and hiding things - as per usual I blame the accountants for all the worlds woes )

Patucca - please explain how naked selling (as opposed to legitimate short selling) manipulates the prices. I assume you are against naked short selling only? Also while white collar crimes and fraud are all interesting - I mean Bernie Maddoff was very good at manipulating his clients and books - his prices were complete fantasy - but he did not really manipulate the markets as he never traded! It would be good to have your views on HOW naked short sellers manipulate the markets. thanks.

I suggest a new thread out of the gold one to discuss such things as above. As for Germany not getting there gold back - stick it it there as well. It might be an interesting thread. http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-markets/16458-markets-manipulation.html#post180314

A thread to discuss market manipulation. There are always a lot of claims of market manipulation, its impact and its origin. This can cover all sorts of ideas including those that think; their brokers manipulate their client accounts, the larger traders manipulate markets and prices, and how governments manipulate the markets and distort prices. Various jurisdictions will change how people view this and in certain places what is considered manipulation is normal business practices. A lot will depend on how broad a definition you approach it with For a simple but broad definition with examples lets stick to - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation "Market manipulation is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market and create artificial, false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a security, commodity or currency. " ........................ Rather than just populate the thread with wild conspiracy theories and other claims about governments, evil organisations or individuals, if you think something is a market manipulation then please give evidence of it, OR an example of what you have seen directly. If you have an urban myth disclose it as one, maybe myth busters can bust it. Keep it to examples around markets and out of the political or religious sphere (even if you think they are related) The internet has enough of these already. Some will disagree, some will tell you thats life, thats business etc - thats fine - but if possible keep it civil and maybe it might end up being an interesting discussion on what many consider is manipulation v normal practices - what is accepted as being fair, or just or what the alternatives are. We also might educate ourselves as to some of the more devious practices out there that actually happen (not those you have heard of) that you were unaware of and/or we might educate ourselves as to what we thought was a manipulation is really just considered normal to many others. To many new players often believe wild stories, and equally too many old hands think some market practices are fair just because thats the way it has always been done.... so try and keep it balanced without hype. Lets see what happens - if kept civil (wishful thinking maybe) it might reveal a lot of how some aspects of markets work behind the scenes.

First lets make the distinction between equities and futures/options and short selling v naked short selling. In equities- If you think short selling or naked short selling can run any company into bankruptcy you must have found the secret sauce to investing - most short selling issues come about because of other criminal activities and short selling is only part of it. You need to find the right company - usually they have other issues and are susceptible to it. you should love short sellers as a value investor - the idea of being able to pick up things below their real value should have you salivating. (I bet you probably bought Lehman's right because it had real value was not an overlevergaed bloated company - but it was just these stinking short sellers that drove it into the ground. ) Naked short selling in equities is not the devil anti american issues many make it out. the shorters also have to buy it back, and provide liquidity etc, plus as per usual, how many naked short sellers do you reckon make money? or are you wanting to quote the few times naked short sellers have had a good time of it, or were in fact using their shorts as just one part of a scam. Finally lets not forget that 'manipulation' and other spurious methods also occur (I would guess in far greater numbers and examples) from the long side - or should we forget about this? In fact if you are a totally free market capitalist maybe you should encourage it....and if my memory serves me correctly you are a little bit against governments interfering in markets or your life - except when it suits maybe? ...................... but lets stick to futures - as this is the gold thread. Please explain how the gold market was manipulated (I assume by the short sellers) for the recent move to prop up the dollar? where have these people been the last ten years? The mechanism by which it was done and for who? So far all you have done is make a claim with zero evidence of how its done, or why.....

Bob - this seems to be where people dont actually read or understand what they are buying. A very quick search on the net (less than 2 seconds typing the words 'redeeming from a gold etf') brought this up. Read the first paragraph. Gold ETF - What You Need to Know There were plenty of articles. This one from India was pretty good. http://www.nsegold.com/KNOW%20ALL%20ABOUT%20GOLD%20ETF.pdf In fact most seem to point it out right at the start Merk Gold ETF To Be Redeemable In Bullion When it comes to pure futures - you have to ask to convert it and then pay for at the time - and not just have a margined futures contract. http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/files/MT-023_NewMetals_WhitePaper_SR.pdf Page 4 gives a brief summary you can follow up. Now I am sure this is clear to people who bother reading their prospectuses or understand what they are buying - but we know from experience that many dont bother. What you are describing is purely and simply the case of the buyer being a lazy idiot in my opinion. the sales man might have been good, he might have been duded and lied to if he asked the right questions, but if he does not know what he is buying - what can we say. This is a very different position to a fund/etf etc not doing what it says - which technically is a breach of contract, and at extreme examples will see more regulatory or criminal consequences -- but here is a piece of advice for everyone.... Those prospectuses, information memorandums, contracts etc - when you read them understand that the disclaimers are not there to protect you - they are designed to protect the seller from you - for when you buy something you say you understand and yet dont.

I agree with you Patucca that if you want to hold physical gold as an investment then replicating it with futures is a different proposition, but your 'manipulations' is simply the market and the participants doing what they do, and the intra day spoofing, pulled orders and games like that have always happened in some form (I used to be a market maker, I also often put orders in and pull them out even today) - if you call that manipulation then thats fine, but a 20% move in a gold price - please explain how this has been manipulated? It seems you are blaming the naked short sellers - if so i repeat my previous post - this sounds like the same BS when equity short sellers were blamed in 2008. If you are a long term holder then i am not sure you should be worried about the intra day 'manipulations' If you are a long term holder then it appears you are basing your investment on different analysis and should be welcoming these 'buying' opportunities rather than proclaiming the poor retail guy is getting screwed whilst trading.....I mean how many retail guys get to trade the physical - last i looked it was illiquid and costly and trading is very different to investing so you do it in the most appropriate instrument. As for price action - well its a way of trading, you dont need to understand the manipulations or the reasons why - you trade what you see and not what you think or believe and I think I have seen more money lost by people who think they know whats going on behind the scenes in the market even if their PL tells them the opposite. (I have actually participated in some of your supposed market manipulations before (even though I would just call them buying and selling decisions) in the past in equities whereby we moved some large stocks with large orders and I can tell you all the idiots who came up with all the reasons why the moves occurred, all the stories, the ideas the conspiracy theories and 'news stories' to explain why these moves occurred usually missed the f...n obvious----. It was an order to sell or buy that was large enough that at the time did not find the desired liquidity and so it had to move the price. Period. Sometimes a fund/client is liquidated, sometimes market models trigger orders, mistakes occur, sometimes people want to take a trade and want to have an impact, other times its simply the vacumm that occurs when sellers rush for the doors at the same time, maybe it was a long term holder exiting, maybe it was someone hedging (do you know when a futures sale is a hedge or a naked short ???)) Sooooo please explain how the 20% market drop was manipulated? Or is this just your way of trying to describe a 'trade decision' by either a random participant or a very talented trader?

How then do they manipulate the price? I have both bought and shorted gold before with zero intention of delivering it..... If you get caught and the demand really pushes the price i have to either cut my position or roll....again - please explain how the manipulation by the short sellers work? Those 'shorters' those manipulators must have taken an absolute bath over the last ten years - why is it suddenly an issue now?

So are you talking about a scam involving a fund that did not do what it said it would, or are you talking about manipulation of the gold price or are you now talking about the exchange and its warehousing and margining process? Very different things - they may be related....they also might not have anything to do with each other. There seems to be a jump from one to the other here.....and your example is a little confusing. Jimbo got back what it said it was worth - what is wrong with that - what planet are you living on whereby your average price is what it is worth as opposed to the price someone will pay on the day you wish to redeem? Do you think the Comex/CME actually trades against you? What about the seller of the future - but lets stick to the example of Jimbo and his investment in a fund that is meant to be buying physical gold. ....and not sure how your example shows manipulation - if the fund is actually trading against Jimbo then in your example all they did was a good job....even if they are not meant to....or maybe it was those other smart investors that redemmed when Jimbo bought - funds do have two way action. If a fund that you have invested in are not doing what they say they do then this is a different matter --- still not manipulation - a scam yes - commonly referred to as a ponzi scheme whereby new investors pay off older redemming investors - but where is it that these funds dont have the gold? (note not all funds are physically baked and when you read the small print might be surprised - redemptions are often in cash) If the warehousing system is missing gold that is meant to be there and meant to be allocated to people then this is theft - still not manipulation (Thinking MFGlobal etc; - this is no different to anything whereby something is stolen - I have always said, holding gold in a bank account in Switzerland when you are stuck in the USA/Oz/UK aint going to do you much good if the SHTF) You example shows nothing about this being a scam or manipulation or anything - it simply shows that Jimbo got it wrong. Where is the proof that these funds are scamming people? .............. Crazy rant---- When it comes to the leverage and the growth of the paper market v the actual numbers around the physical supply and demand of gold (or any commodity for that matter) then this has been going for decades - which has affected which (chicken and egg) is always debatable. - Thats how futures markets, speculation etc work. (You know your house, that you paid $1mil for - then insure it for $1mil, then the insurance company uses reinsurance companies to spread their risk.....does not make you house worth $3mil) Are you suggesting that we do away with futures markets, leverage and speculation? or are we simply talking about the way futures markets swing between contango and backwardation? I keep reading about the disconnect of futures markets and the phyiscal - hello - one is a derivative of the other - its priced and traded based on what costs etc are required.....its not just a bet on thin air (though plenty of things are) --- end rant ............... ....................................... As for Patucca - If the markets are rigged against you, here is the question you need to ask yourself - what sort of idiot are you to trade in a rigged market whereby you are going to loose? Contact Bob for that bridge - it sounds like something you might be interested in. Remember the job of the Fed is to manipulate the market :doh: - if it does a good or bad job is entirely up to you decide and for you to then bet against them. (but lets stick to gold) If you are concerned with theft and have proof of it, or can actually put away the political PR then it would be interesting to hear how exactly (the mechanism and process as opposed to baseless claims) this manipulation occurs. ...................... Here is another take on it.... If there is a massive scam, gold has been stolen and the whole instrument is plagued with massive amounts of fraud......how many such instruments can you think of that have gone up in price after this is revealed....maybe if you think the system is rigged gold is not where you want to be when people rush for the door to salvage what money they can. Sort of like the housing market when it gets leverage on leverage - price collapses - it does not rise. Which is why i think a lot of instruments (not just gold) are potentially a game of musical chairs. (hope this makes sense - its a Sat afternoon typed vomit)

Well everyone is making the distinction between paper gold and physical gold now as it comes down and people are complaining its short sellers pushing the market down...... Well most of the buying and expansion in gold buyers in recent years has come from the paper buyers.....they were asset allocators and not interested in taking physical delivery. Some did....but most used ETFs and futures and rolled them etc. The analogy with the short sellers are to blame is because it always comes out when a market goes down - even when the short sellers make up a very small percentage of the overall volumes, they are never patted on the back when providing liquidity when the market is rising and when it comes to futures - someone has to be selling them for the buyers to get hold of the opposite position. (In 2008 there where equity bans on short sellers who were blamed for the market demise - all a load of BS) A shortage in the underlying is certainly possible - it is called a short squeeze (oil had one in Feb 2009 from memory on the last day a big spike in the futures over the next month), but i think if you checked a lot of the paper ETFs will be rolled as per usual and it will only be if there is a massive demand for physical to be delivered - if this occurs, as some suspect the exchanges may turn around and say well lets allow these to be cash settled.....plus do you think people will be able to demand gold when some of the larger players say here is a cash settlement - take it or leave it. To me it would appear the market is not overly concerned as if it was the spreads between the physical and the spot would have really blown out - not just be out of kilter a bit. It does not explain the drop of late....this to me is simply the game of musical chairs for which gold is just one (as are many instruments) when the music stops. Gold is just another store of value among plenty that people get a little too religious about. These as in most days the simplest survival technique is diversification and an ability to live in different countries.....cause that gold you have in a vault in Switzerland, or have built your back yard wall out if is worthless if you cant get to it. ...and no I am not a believer in big market manipulations - granted there are some small variations that can occur but if the last few years have taught us anything those who are supposedly doing the manipulations are not manipulating the markets but the laws and the politicians....far easier and less costly. for some balance.... http://www.bullionbaron.com/2013/05/rumors-of-my-death-have-been-greatly.html

funny how no one seemed to mind when the paper traders where making an asset allocation to gold without any intention to take physical and as a result they pushed price up.... now its all manipulation and conspiracy, market is rigged..... Remind anyone of 2008 when the banks wanted a short selling ban?:doh:

yes from my own subjective opinion and experience - there is a time and a place for it....unfortunately they are very rare and too often traders fall into the trap of trying to do it all the time. Thats a tough game. There are only a few times an instrument (maybe once a year?) really provides a good opportunity to do this IMHO (clearly depends on your time frame and expectations) . These are the times when if you are on the wrong side of the trade, (meaning you did not cut early) and you get that feeling of 'I want to puke in a bucket - i feel so sick, i should have cut this a long time ago' - thats the day when if you can put yourself in the long traders shoes, it might be worth having a go at catching a falling knife.....to be able to do this you clearly have to have been in that position at some stage to recognize what it would feel like. Maybe Patuccca a new thread on attributes to keep an eye out for when applying the falling knife safety trick? As for Gold IMHO - it had it the other day, at <1350....and now the bounce has occurred and subsequently fallen again - this is not the time to catch it - the reason being - its not a falling knife - its undecided as to continue down, or consolidate, etc here. My personal preference would be to sell rallies now, or hold longer term shorts from an unbiased immediate trading point of view....but unless you are in the habit of looking for higher lows and do that well....this is not a falling knife anymore.

sing along all together now....catch a falling star lyrics by Perry Como catch a falling knife, put your severed fingers in a bucket try and fade the trend of the day catch a falling knife, put your severed fingers in a bucket save them for a rainy day.

for an interesting take on the Fed and Bernake.....from a trading perspective Brad DeLong : Moby Ben, or, The Washington Super-Whale: Hedge Fundies, the Federal Reserve, and Bernanke-Hatred

Two books that helped me decide many years ago and i have quoted them both here. One was "trading with the gods" - there are variations of the website around the other was "The Trading Rule That Can Make You Rich" - Dobson One is about the magic of fibonacci, and BS IMHO, the other basically telling you to wait until you have a 50% pullback of which ever direction you choose to go in before entering a trade. Overall they tell you the same thing....one applying some magic to it, the other common sense. The key point that anyone should take out of what ever 'idea' you like is that you work out a system that gives you a method of waiting for a trade, allowing you a way to work out if the trade is wrong, what to do when its wrong and what to expect when its right....blah blah blah - you know the stuff - a plan, structure and a method. Its not scientific, its certainly not magic its not measurable, it requires context and discretion for when to apply it, it has some pros and cons, it sometimes misses you trades.....etc; I like 50% which is not even a fib number, but if you use a fib number its likely you need the same thought process to make it work. There is no magic number or secret sauce, nothing sacred about any number, but if you can use a number to help enter on pullbacks, and that number is a better than not number for forcing you to have some patience, give you structure and help read the market - then great. If not, move on and find something that might. (I actually think overall despite the variations in opinion many are arguing for the same thing in this thread - you need more than just a set of numbers to apply to a market to money)

most advice as to what to buy and sell is likely to be less than 50/50 or the advisor has a vested interest. TL is more about supporting those who want to learn and develop their own system in order to make their own trading decisions through strategy discusssions, trade methods, policy discussions - its not necessarily about advice for what to buy or sell....even though this is here as well. there are plenty of places where this advice will be available - they will usually charge you for this, but if you dont understand and have your own method then this advice is likely to be only as good as a 50/50 decision. If you have specific questions or ideas about trading questions then TL is a good place to start. There is plenty here to read and absorb first.

yes - you can buy and sell most options like this any time you want. (You cannot exercise certain options at any time - this may be where you are confused - this is the difference between American and European options) Also dont be sucked into thinking you have to exercise the option in order to sell it as well. The option is simply an instrument that has an expiry date by which time it is either worth something (in which case you roll it to another option series, or exercise it or be assigned) or worth zero You are clearly new at this and i would suggest you keep asking these type of questions (which is a good thing) and read a lot more - options are not necessarily that simple to grasp.

Dont worry the French are redefining the word 'austerity' in order to deflect the the fact that current 'policy' does not work.

buying options is sometimes referred to as death by a thousand cuts because the time decay slowly reduces your investment. (Practically no different to continually shorting and stopping out in an uptrend) The alternative is picking up pennies in front of a steam roller by shorting them. Which IMHO is why in both cases you really need a proper strategy to apply them with rather than just a hunch.

The shares of a company are basically the equity of a company - it can be divided in any way legally possible (and quite frankly for a lot of companies is simply an accounting entry). I was not clear on your example so i will give a rough guide in the hope it helps? In very basic terms when a company goes public it is usually either raising money and for that issuing new shares OR Existing owners are selling some or all of their existing shares Usually a public offering has a restructuring of the share capital of the company first in either case. This is where the decisions on how many shares to issue, the issue price and other such things. eg; you have a company worth $10mil you can sell 20% of the company to the public in an IPO and in doing so you will be selling 2million shares at $1 each OR you can sell 20million shares at 10c each. Based on the choice, there will be a total number of shares of the company eg; 10mil or 100mil - but the underlying value placed on the company does not change....this should be the stable part. (unless its a ponzi scheme or similar), For existing owners it will be up to them to decide how many shares they wish to sell, or purchase. With all the added issues of exchange rules, different types of shares available etc etc - you need to be more specific over and above that. more info here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_public_offering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorised_capital

Trial and error usually --- much the same as trading. Oh and dont forget the most important part of it - learning from the errors. Welcome to TL - you will find lots of info here by searching and reading regards ideas, platforms and such - some info good, some rubbish some hilarious. Basically you have so much freedom with trading and the decisions you make its up to you to squander that freedom as you see fit.

I have posted a ton of research on the net which is easy to find, has a lot of various opinions about the pros and cons of bitcoins from many many different people and sources but no real conclusion. you can find the index at any one of the large number of internet search engines around. For my research I am sorry i dont have an assistant to answer every question for those who cant be bothered, funds are tight in this era of austerity. Please send a bitcoin to help fund my efforts.

The question is why trade if you think the market is random - as a mathematician you should know this. You may as well just be a passive investor - this is central to the debate about random markets. It has nothing to do with if your broker is supposedly ripping you off because half the time they have nothing to do with any of it. If you are going to qualify your discussion about the bucket shops mainly in FX that are set up purely for this, and are essentially market making against you in the aim that most will blow up and they keep your account - yes this happens but whats this to do with randomness and markets - the OP is in the equities indexes? Plus your maths --- what is that for? You say.... if you traded 5 times in a row thats 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = approx. 3% chance of winning for an UNBIAS SYSTEM, so imagine taking 100 trades. should you be saying..... if you traded 5 times in a row thats 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = approx. 3% chance of winning 5 times in a row. what about the old risk reward part of it? As for casinos - I have no interest in a game whereby even if you can beat them you will loose regardless of how you do it - I would suggest you start a thread here on TL, reveal it to everyone. :missy:

1a2b3cppp - i read your non TL thread, or some of it, - i dont think it is in your best interests to critisize others for not posting trades etc - there are lot of "what if", "i am thinking", "but", and a few discrepancies/holes regards when hedges were applied that quickly stood out.....additionally if your trades are really random its all irrelevant right? As to comparing this to being consistently profitable immediately after an example that has zero to do with consistency seems odd. Criticisms around systems are designed to point out the flaws, pitfalls and downsides to a system - and to determine if a system is worth while doing, not just because it makes some money, but because it makes more money that just investing and then going off and doing another job, or sitting on the beach. Plus dont underestimate the effect of luck on a system - recognizing that is very important for long term profitability. (Luck is not necessarily about random behavior unless you choose it to be so) There are plenty of ways to trade and view the markets - yours does have some attributes that I dont think you are adequately recognising and giving credit to whilst at the same time you might be overselling (for want of a better word) other aspects of it. (Otherwise qudos for ignoring the off thread topics in your thread, posting a system that might be full of pitfalls and is open for discussion is all good)