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Old 04-01-2010, 07:54 PM   #9

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

All prfessional traders Ive met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:06 PM   #10

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktartarotti »
Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

All prfessional traders Ive met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.
I've been a full time trader for 8 years, with the Emini SP being my bread and butter since the liquidity and spreads on Eurex went off a cliff. Ask away...
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:17 PM   #11

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

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Originally Posted by Gabe2004 »
Your logic seems flawed.
Are you saying that if one is aware of the risk associated with trading then they will not lose?
I am sure most people are aware of the risk. What kills them (their account rather) is lack of a plan, lack of training, lack of discipline and lack of capital.

Gabe
That's not the only logic that is flawed from his reasoning. If you only trade with risk capital, this means you have enough funds, or other income to live on besides the risk capital that you can afford to lose. This means you are not really trading for a living; you are only playing around, or supplementing or hoping to supplement, your income.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:22 PM   #12

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktartarotti »
Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

All prfessional traders Ive met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.
I'm curious to understand what you expect to learn from the answers? If a couple of people say they are doing that, how is that going to help you? I'm sure there are plenty of people who are doing that with the e-minis. How do you expect knowing that someone else is doing that, is going to help you? And why do you think people doing it with other instruments is not going to help you?
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:39 PM   #13

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

86834, the [problem for newbies is that they really don'y even know the questions, let alone the answers. Trading is one of the most complex processes yet is simple to execute. Therein lies the failure rate of traders.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:58 PM   #14

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Sevensa,
I believe that the answers would be very informative if those that share give a little insight on their personal journey.
Also, information such as why they chose the e-minis over other markets, what is weekly, montly, yearly expected %ROI ( I know that this varies from each individual, but what % makes it worth your while?!).
Because the e-minis are highly leveraged and sometimes a "good" money management strategy suggests not risking more than 2% of your trading capital per trade and on the other side of the coin some people are trying to have a 4% ROI per year I ask the question if anyone solely trade the e-minis for a living or if there is a good money management advice that once a treshold is crossed (based on personal opinion) one should start diversifying into less leveraged markets?
Certainly there is a lot more, but if someone could elaborate on those questions I would start getting some answers I am looking for!
86834 - Ive read some of your posts and your blog, certainly very good advices! Ive read in your blog that you have not traded much while the market has been so quiet, youve not traded only the e-minis or nothing at all?
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:30 AM   #15

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Ktartarotti,

Currently you have a big ad running that will attract all vendors to you.
In your OP you did ask them to leave you alone, but that wont stop them.
I can see that you have at least one vendor that has responded to you several times.

The best way to get the information your looking for is to use the search feature and do a lot of reading and then ask suddle question. you will then get a feel for the different personalities that post here and their motives. Some post here because they are lonely, some are wanabes, some need to vent, and some are here to learn and to share and finally there the few that truely serve other traders and share some very valuable trading knowledge. When your at that point then you will know who is giving you answers that will genuinely help you and who is trying to sell you a service.

One last thought... until you can convince your self, independent of others opinions, that trading profitably can be accomplished, you will allways be walking on very shakey ground with respect to trading. Specially in real trading situation where self reliance and confidence is key.
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:46 AM   #16

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Re: Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktartarotti »
Sevensa,
I believe that the answers would be very informative if those that share give a little insight on their personal journey.
Also, information such as why they chose the e-minis over other markets, what is weekly, montly, yearly expected %ROI ( I know that this varies from each individual, but what % makes it worth your while?!).
Because the e-minis are highly leveraged and sometimes a "good" money management strategy suggests not risking more than 2% of your trading capital per trade and on the other side of the coin some people are trying to have a 4% ROI per year I ask the question if anyone solely trade the e-minis for a living or if there is a good money management advice that once a treshold is crossed (based on personal opinion) one should start diversifying into less leveraged markets?
Certainly there is a lot more, but if someone could elaborate on those questions I would start getting some answers I am looking for!
86834 - Ive read some of your posts and your blog, certainly very good advices! Ive read in your blog that you have not traded much while the market has been so quiet, youve not traded only the e-minis or nothing at all?
I haven't done much on the emini's this year because of the trading enviornment. I think people forget that the markets have had their biggest crash in the history, and the market will put in some down time before it picks up again. Anyone trading through the dotcom crash should know what I mean.

There have been opportunities in ES if you're only trading small size, but I trade quite a lot of size and I need to iceburg my orders in, so for me personally, there have been better opps out there, rather than trading outrights in ES. The money I make from ES trades more than qualifies earning a living out of the emini's, but the emini's are not my sole market. I run my own fund and manage a lot of other peoples money, so sticking to just one product and style isn't the name of my game. So far this year, a lot of the stuff i've been doing have been various spreads like 10's under 2's flatteners as the yield curve has dropped, TuT's, Eurostoxx/Dax spreads, schatz, bobl, bund flies etc. Also been active in cable and the yen.


For most of you guys you shouldn't be risking more then 1% per trade, or per day when day trading. You're simply not experienced enough to handle more risk. Even at 2% you're gonna surprise yourself how much captial you chew through on a bad run, and you will have a bad run. Also you have to be realistic about how much you're going to make from the markets. Yes you get the odd person once every blue moon who turns a $5k account into $1,000,000, but you've got more chance of winning the lottery than being that guy. If you want to earn millions from trading, then you need to be trading millions. I earn multiple 7 figures in a year, but i'm trading multiple 7 figure accounts for clients. If you want to earn hundreds of thousands a year, then you need to be trading hundreds of thousands, on so on down the list we go. If anyone tells you otherwise then they're living in a fantasy land or they haven't been trading for very long.

This isn't going to be what most people want to hear, but if you're serious about trading full time for living, then the very least you need in trading captial is $100,000. Forget all that $500 margin rubbish because it's complete bollocks to sucker you into thinking you can make a fortune off a small amount. You can trade 10 contracts in ES per $100,000, then ontop of that, you need cash reserves in the bank for when you hit downdraw etc. Out of the profits you make each month, you're gonna only be paying yourself 50% and leaving the other half in the trading account for your trading captial to grow.

Lets say you turn out to be a good strong trader, and you can average 30pts a month over a year by day trading (a lot harder than what you think!), so without even taking into consideration commissions which are completely ridiculous for you retail guys, this is what you're gonna make.... and this is completely hypothetical and in a perfect world... which we don't live in..... oh and it doesn't take into consideration any over heads.

10 ES contracts = $500 per point.
30pt profit a month average = $15,000
50% wage to yourself to live on = $7500

Now lets include some basic costs.... and lets say you average 6 round trips a week at $4.80 a roundie working on a 4 week month to keep it simple....

30pt profit = $15,000

Cost of Round Trips -$1152
TT X trader - $1500
CQG - $600
News Feed - $300
Net Costs - $3,552

Net Profit - $11,448
What you pay youself.... $5724

So this is a very basic example, and doesn't take a lot of things into consideration, and it is making the assumption that you can consistently make 30pts a month, and we all know how assumptions are the mother of all screw ups. So on a $100,000 account you're walking out with $5724 a month as a wage that you're gonna live on. The other half is staying in your trading account to build up your trading captial.

I bet 99.9% of you don't have $100,000 trading captial, let alone savings ontop of that to last you a year. I'm not saying that to be a moron, but it's just the reality that you have to accept. I've been there, done it, got the t shirt. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just spinning their own ego off. I mentioned in my blog post, the expectations that 99.9% of retail traders have about trading are on the same level as people getting up one day and deciding they're gonna start an oil company out of their bedroom on $10,000 and they're gonna take on the likes of Shell, BP, Mobile etc

Now if you do have the captial to get involved with trading properly, then you need to find someone to train you properly. Going to webinars your broker sends you is pretty much searching through the 'never has been anything' box. You have to accept that retail brokers, and retail education on the whole is just a fools gold market and the only people making money in the retail world are the people selling the shovels.

If you haven't got that type of trading captial, then all this is going to be is a part time hobby that you'll be able to pay for a few holidays with if you get good.

These are your options....

1. You're suffeciently funded to give trading a go full time... You need to find an experience trader that will mentor you. I would only class someone as an experienced mentor if they've consistently earned over $300,000 a year for 3 years or more. Be realistic too, mentorship isn't going to be cheap, just like going to college to be a doctor or a lawyer isn't cheap. It's going take time for you to learn the business, and they're probably going to want a take of your profits. For example I take 20% of profits a month from someone I decide to mentor... What do you want... 100% of nothing or 80% of a few grand?

2. You haven't quite got $100k type money to trade with.... You can still get a mentor but obviously it's gonna hit your bottom line more. If you're a single young person, then it could work for you, otherwise you fall into catagory 3.

3. You not properly funded to trade full time..... Either save up more money, or this is just a part time gig for you. Give it a go and see what happens. Like I say, you might be able to pay for the odd dirty weekend away with the girlfriend/boyfriend. For you young ones, you need to be trying to get in at a firm. Unless you're a rich kid and you're parents are gonna back you a few hundred grand, you need to stay in school, work hard, and get good at writing C.V's and be thinking of a good speech for when asked 'why do you want to be a trader' If you get knocked back at interviews, just keep on applying. It shows persistence and dedication, and that's what we like to see in someone when we're hiring a grad.


It is what it is.
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