Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

cowcool

Is 100% Mechanical Trading Possible?

Recommended Posts

Reminds me in grade school when you couldn't spell a word the teacher would tell you to look it up in the dictionary. You would never find it if you thought it was like KAT. Some peoples can't spell and will never be able to. Some people can sing or play the violin and some never will even with a gun pressed to the side of their head.

 

I love the other answer that there are tons "on the internet offering to make you a millionaire". Of course thats true and their all frauds. Very helpful thank you.

 

I asked a simple question and I am assuming the answer is if you are not a good trader and can't program you are out of luck. Although none of you directly answered my question in a round about way I guess you did.

 

Not sure what other answer you are really looking for then? If you don't want to program and you think the systems available on the internet are all fraud, then what is your alternative other than just give up and finding something else to do?

 

I don't agree that some people will just never be able to do something. Not everyone can be good at something and become experts, but everyone can do the basics if you are willing to put a little effort in. There are numerous threads here where people are asking for basic help and went from having no experience to be able to write some code. However, you have to take the first step yourself and not give up before you even start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"you can see this Ninja example"

 

"Not sure what other answer you are really looking for then"

 

Downloaded Ninja awhile back to run with Trade Station. Could not get it to work. E mail support no help. They told me best solution was to delete Ninja program. Like I was saying I am not very good with computers.

 

In this post and others people responders in other posts I read have "said you have to develop your own program". Not one person has recommended a commercial trading program to use with Trade Station. Remarks like one from a previous poster was the are "ones on the internet that will make you a millionaire". Obvious he is being witty (in his own mind) and of little help.

So when you say what are you looking for how about some recommendations for some decent software to trade ETFS and stocks. In the 6 months I have been with trade station the closest I have gotten is develop your own. (Spend a few years learning programming and trying to put together a trading system?)

So the answer to you question "what are you looking for " is from the responses I have read in other newbie questions and responses I have received ed is nothing in these forums.

 

Tams thank you for you post about Ninja which I view as a sincere attempt at trying to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Reminds me in grade school when you couldn't spell a word the teacher would tell you to look it up in the dictionary. You would never find it if you thought it was like KAT. Some peoples can't spell and will never be able to. Some people can sing or play the violin and some never will even with a gun pressed to the side of their head.

 

I love the other answer that there are tons "on the internet offering to make you a millionaire". Of course thats true and their all frauds. Very helpful thank you.

 

I asked a simple question and I am assuming the answer is if you are not a good trader and can't program you are out of luck. Although none of you directly answered my question in a round about way I guess you did.

 

100% mechanical trading is the future of the market,, there will be war of the codes making the market even more efficient resulting in discretionary trading becoming a thing of the past . Algo trading is not new and most business is done using codes,,,

I use 100% aglo code myself

 

Grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

Downloaded Ninja awhile back to run with Trade Station. Could not get it to work. E mail support no help. They told me best solution was to delete Ninja program. Like I was saying I am not very good with computers.

 

In this post and others people responders in other posts I read have "said you have to develop your own program". Not one person has recommended a commercial trading program to use with Trade Station. Remarks like one from a previous poster was the are "ones on the internet that will make you a millionaire". Obvious he is being witty (in his own mind) and of little help.

So when you say what are you looking for how about some recommendations for some decent software to trade ETFS and stocks. In the 6 months I have been with trade station the closest I have gotten is develop your own. (Spend a few years learning programming and trying to put together a trading system?)

So the answer to you question "what are you looking for " is from the responses I have read in other newbie questions and responses I have received ed is nothing in these forums.

 

Tams thank you for you post about Ninja which I view as a sincere attempt at trying to help.

 

 

 

if you have TradeStation, why would you need anything else?

 

 

included in TradeStation are 100s of autotrade examples.

you can open up the code and explore the logic and see how people manipulate and analyze data.

 

TradeStation's manuals and tutorials are the best in the industry -- they have over 20 years of accumulated knowledge and experience.

if you can't understand TradeStation, there is no point in trying anything else, because there won't be anything more comprehensive and easy to understand than TradeStation.

Edited by Tams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100% mechanical trading is the future of market,, there will be war of the codes making the market even more efficient resulting in discretionary trading becomming a thing of the past . Algo trading is not new and most business is done using codes,,,

I use 100% aglo code myself

 

Grey1

Discretionary trading will never go away IMO.

 

Algos do work though, but then they still have to be managed, via DD and when to pull them offline and replace.... so that is discretionary in itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
100% mechanical trading is the future of the market,, there will be war of the codes making the market even more efficient resulting in discretionary trading becoming a thing of the past . Algo trading is not new and most business is done using codes,,,

I use 100% aglo code myself

 

Grey1

 

 

This is a big World... there is always room for discretionary trading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is a big World... there is always room for discretionary trading.

 

IMHO Discretionary trading is not going to go away so soon I agree,, but the odds of win for a discretionary trader becomes so low that any 1 in his right mind would not look at it as a business,,

 

Grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what if you dont know programing? are there any mechnical systems for charts and ETFS that one can buy.

 

Not only that there are brokers that will run the popular ones for you so all you have to do is read your satements each month.

 

The thing is with 100% mechanical systems is there is still discretion to be applied. e.g. When to retire them, when to change parameters, how much to risk, which markets to run them on etc. etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Not only that there are brokers that will run the popular ones for you so all you have to do is read your satements each month."

 

 

 

 

can you name 2 or 3 popular mechanical trading systems for stocks and ETFS that you are refering to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMHO Discretionary trading is not going to go away so soon I agree,, but the odds of win for a discretionary trader becomes so low that any 1 in his right mind would not look at it as a business,,

 

Grey1

 

I disagree. I am of the opinion that traders with strategies that can be automated by computers do not have a lasting edge whereas discretionary traders that consider context and apply market logic do (i.e., traders with strategies that cannot be programmed or automated). Successful trading in the future will require creativity and pattern recognition - the sort of stuff where human beings excel over computers. I believe that discretionary traders have a better shot at competing in the markets, can better adapt to the ever changing markets, and are not in direct competition with the automated strategies run by institutions. A book that I would recommend on this is A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is my general opinion.

Edited by ant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree. I am of the opinion that traders with strategies that can be automated by computers do not have a lasting edge whereas discretionary traders that consider context and apply market logic do (i.e., traders with strategies that cannot be programmed or automated). Successful trading in the future will require creativity and pattern recognition - the sort of stuff where human beings excel over computers. And this coming from a software engineer. :) I believe that discretionary traders have a better shot at competing in the markets, can adap to the ever changing market, and are not in direct competition with the automated strategies run by institutions. A book that I would recommend on this is A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is my general opinion.

 

You must not be in your right mind then... :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree. I am of the opinion that traders with strategies that can be automated by computers do not have a lasting edge whereas discretionary traders that consider context and apply market logic do (i.e., traders with strategies that cannot be programmed or automated). Successful trading in the future will require creativity and pattern recognition - the sort of stuff where human beings excel over computers. I believe that discretionary traders have a better shot at competing in the markets, can better adapt to the ever changing markets, and are not in direct competition with the automated strategies run by institutions. A book that I would recommend on this is A Whole New Mind: Why Right-Brainers Will Rule the Future by Daniel Pink. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is my general opinion.

 

 

Interesting.

 

I don't think Daniel had experience of trading. Unless you are the one in a million who are not stressed when money is at risk then your brain operates differently during (and at various times during) the trading process.

 

Personally I have been coding the clearest elements of my discretionary trading to 1. take me out of the process for all sorts of reasons, 2. allow better testing to avoid the impact of cognitive distortions, and 3. permit me to trade more markets simultaneously and thus focus on the best setups/processes.

 

This has been interesting and one element that is of interest is that I also don't believe that each mechanical edge lasts forever - the markets twist and turn. Longer term system developers try to adapt with atr measures etc. I am taking the other approach which I think is more appropriate to short term systems where the market participants care about specific numbers and movement numbers and will adapt key numbers over time as the markets twist.

 

So real time is mechanical systems - mid term is discretionary/optimization based tuning - long term is system retirement and birth.

 

So - systems don't last forever but who cares?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree. I am of the opinion that traders with strategies that can be automated by computers do not have a lasting edge whereas discretionary traders that consider context and apply market logic do (i.e., traders with strategies that cannot be programmed or automated)..

 

New pattern recognition algos using fuzzy logic and its subset are dynamic and adapt themselves to market behaviour every day this is why they are so sharp.. You can not trade the market based on if MA1 crossed MA2 then buy for the rest of your life,,, you need codes which are adaptive and are self thought in real time using Neural Net and chaotic theories to tackle millions of combination of various inputs,,

WAR OF THE CODES WAR AGAINST THE WEAKEST

 

Grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Iraj,

 

Does this apply to all trading or is it specific to stocks ?

 

 

 

Paul

 

PAUL ,

 

This applies to all effecient market ,, the instrument is of no importance what so ever,,

 

Grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
New pattern recognition algos using fuzzy logic and its subset are dynamic and adapt themselves to market behaviour every day this is why they are so sharp.. You can not trade the market based on if MA1 crossed MA2 then buy for the rest of your life,,, you need codes which are adaptive and are self thought in real time using Neural Net and chaotic theories to tackle millions of combination of various inputs,,

WAR OF THE CODES WAR AGAINST THE WEAKEST

 

Grey1

 

 

very interesting....

 

can you post a chart(or whatever illustration) showing such workout?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
very interesting....

 

can you post a chart(or whatever illustration) showing such workout?

 

Hi

 

You can not show a complicated concept on chart,, it is not a double top or a trend line chart pattern which can be show using a chart,,

 

Using a NN the ALGO looks for a chart pattern which could be totally different to one TRADITIONAL CHART PATTERN ANALYST EYE's is used to and once found it trades it in when it expects to re occur again.. I donot like to advertise for any software but if you search the net then you will find at least 3 commercial ones available .. if you could not find it then email me tgafar@btinternet.com and i give you a name .. The rest is up to you buddy

 

Grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Keith,

 

What is CoolTrade?

 

Im also looking for a way to program my semi discretionary strategy. Without success for many months.

 

So hopefully this can be done successfully.

 

Jan

 

Mine has two modules ,,, Heuristic and a mathematical module,, the heuristic algo uses fuzzy rules but the maths algo exploits the conventional maths..The fuzzy algo causes issues in TS8.6 which I donot yet know why it is but the maths module is easy enough to code .. the screen shot below shows the first trade including P/L

snapshot-770.png.a11963c99788ac2fa4d847797bf15896.png

snapshot-773.png.0019516fba61c42d25289874458fd92b.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Iraj,

 

You said earlier that automated trading is almost the only way to go, was this intr-day only or for EOD as well ?

 

Also have you now switched to TS8.6 ?

 

 

Paul

 

I switched to TS8.6 because of the complication with TWS's API and TS2000i .. it was not robust at all specially when I needed to fake my order flow on a larger size hence other algo codes were trading against me .

,,, My swing trades are more and less based on FA and only use TA for entry .

hope this is clear

 

grey1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the screeen shot of the next trade and the application of a heuristic ( discretionary ) trade and a 100% mathematical trade,,, the heuristic module is adaptive and follows the intra days's market cycle which is dynamic but the mathematical algo is only an static view of the market,, if you look at the entry points for both trades then you see a vast difference in exit strategy ,,,

 

hope this sheds some light on the use of discretionary trading in today's market,,, these are all LIVE real time trading P/L

snapshot-776.png.071ee201c12fd2d723e4ed29d94e963e.png

snapshot-777.png.8a155699fb52f2a03bc5debd88af4adf.png

snapshot-778.png.2c7aa0ffb6d4d226c7c21a0b2c17e905.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • Date: 11th July 2025.   Demand For Gold Rises As Trump Announces Tariffs!   Gold prices rose significantly throughout the week as investors took advantage of the 2.50% lower entry level. Investors also return to the safe-haven asset as the US trade policy continues to escalate. As a result, investors are taking a more dovish tone. The ‘risk-off’ appetite is also something which can be seen within the stock market. The NASDAQ on Thursday took a 0.90% dive within only 30 minutes.   Trade Tensions Escalate President Trump has been teasing with new tariffs throughout the week. However, the tariffs were confirmed on Thursday. A 35% tariff on Canadian imports starting August 1st, along with 50% tariffs on copper and goods from Brazil. Some experts are advising that Brazil has been specifically targeted due to its association with the BRICS.   However, the President has not directly associated the tariffs with BRICS yet. According to President Trump, Brazil is targeting US technology companies and carrying out a ‘witch hunt’against former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, a close ally who is currently facing prosecution for allegedly attempting to overturn the 2022 Brazilian election.   Although Brazil is one of the largest and fastest-growing economies in the Americas, it is not the main concern for investors. Investors are more concerned about Tariffs on Canada. The White House said it will impose a 35% tariff on Canadian imports, effective August 1st, raised from the earlier 25% rate. This covers most goods, with exceptions under USMCA and exemptions for Canadian companies producing within the US.   It is also vital for investors to note that Canada is among the US;’s top 3 trading partners. The increase was justified by Trump citing issues like the trade deficit, Canada’s handling of fentanyl trafficking, and perceived unfair trade practices.   The President is also threatening new measures against the EU. These moves caused US and European stock futures to fall nearly 1%, while the Dollar rose and commodity prices saw small gains. However, the main benefactor was Silver and Gold, which are the two best-performing metals of the day.   How Will The Fed Impact Gold? The FOMC indicated that the number of members warming up to the idea of interest rate cuts is increasing. If the Fed takes a dovish tone, the price of Gold may further rise. In the meantime, the President pushing for a 3% rate cut sparked talk of a more dovish Fed nominee next year and raised worries about future inflation.   Meanwhile, jobless claims dropped for the fourth straight week, coming in better than expected and supporting the view that the labour market remains strong after last week’s solid payroll report. Markets still expect two rate cuts this year, but rate futures show most investors see no change at the next Fed meeting. Gold is expected to finish the week mostly flat.       Gold 15-Minute Chart     If the price of Gold increases above $3,337.50, buy signals are likely to materialise again. However, the price is currently retracing, meaning traders are likely to wait for regained momentum before entering further buy trades. According to HSBC, they expect an average price of $3,215 in 2025 (up from $3,015) and $3,125 in 2026, with projections showing a volatile range between $3,100 and $3,600   Key Takeaway Points: Gold Rises on Safe-Haven Demand. Gold gained as investors reacted to rising trade tensions and market volatility. Canada Tariffs Spark Concern. A 35% tariff on Canadian imports drew attention due to Canada’s key trade role. Fed Dovish Shift Supports Gold. Growing expectations of rate cuts and Trump’s push for a 3% cut boosted the gold outlook. Gold Eyes Breakout Above $3,337.5. Price is consolidating; a move above $3,337.50 could trigger new buy signals. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Back in the early 2000s, Netflix mailed DVDs to subscribers.   It wasn’t sexy—but it was smart. No late fees. No driving to Blockbuster.   People subscribed because they were lazy. Investors bought the stock because they realized everyone else is lazy too.   Those who saw the future in that red envelope? They could’ve caught a 10,000%+ move.   Another story…   Back in the mid-2000s, Amazon launched Prime.   It wasn’t flashy—but it was fast.   Free two-day shipping. No minimums. No hassle.   People subscribed because they were impatient. Investors bought the stock because they realized everyone hates waiting.   Those who saw the future in that speedy little yellow button? They could’ve caught another 10,000%+ move.   Finally…   Back in 2011, Bitcoin was trading under $10.   It wasn’t regulated—but it worked.   No bank. No middleman. Just wallet to wallet.   People used it to send money. Investors bought it because they saw the potential.   Those who saw something glimmering in that strange orange coin? They could’ve caught a 100,000%+ move.   The people who made those calls weren’t fortune tellers. They just noticed something simple before others did.   A better way. A quiet shift. A small edge. An asymmetric bet.   The red envelope fixed late fees. The yellow button fixed waiting. The orange coin gave billions a choice.   Of course, these types of gains are rare. And they happen only once in a blue moon. That’s exactly why it’s important to notice when the conditions start to look familiar.   Not after the move. Not once it's on CNBC. But in the quiet build-up— before the surface breaks.   Enter the Blue Button Please read more here: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/netflix-amazon-bitcoin-blue  Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
    • What These Attacks Look Like There are several ways you could get hacked. And the threats compound by the day.   Here’s a quick rundown:   Phishing: Fake emails from your “bank.” Click the link, give your password—game over.   Ransomware: Malware that locks your files and demands crypto. Pay up, or it’s gone.   DDoS: Overwhelm a website with traffic until it crashes. Like 10,000 bots blocking the door. Often used by nations.   Man-in-the-Middle: Hackers intercept your messages on public WiFi and read or change them.   Social Engineering: Hackers pose as IT or drop infected USB drives labeled “Payroll.”   You don’t need to be “important” to be a target.   You just need to be online.   What You Can Do (Without Buying a Bunker) You don’t have to be tech-savvy.   You just need to stop being low-hanging fruit.   Here’s how:   Use a YubiKey (physical passkey device) or Authenticator app – Ditch text message 2FA. SIM swaps are real. Hackers often have people on the inside at telecom companies.   Use a password manager (with Yubikey) – One unique password per account. Stop using your dog’s name.   Update your devices – Those annoying updates patch real security holes. Use them.   Back up your files – If ransomware hits, you don’t want your important documents held hostage.   Avoid public WiFi for sensitive stuff – Or use a VPN.   Think before you click – Emails that feel “urgent” are often fake. Go to the websites manually for confirmation.   Consider Starlink in case the internet goes down – I think it’s time for me to make the leap. Don’t Panic. Prepare. (Then Invest.)   I spent an hour in that basement bar reading about cyberattacks—and watching real-world systems fall apart like dominos.   The internet going down used to be an inconvenience. Now, it’s a warning.   Cyberwar isn’t coming. It’s here.   And the next time your internet goes out, it might not just be your router.   Don’t panic. Prepare.   And maybe keep a backup plan in your back pocket. Like a local basement bar with good bourbon—and working WiFi.   As usual, we’re on the lookout for more opportunities in cybersecurity. Stay tuned.   Author: Chris Campbell (AltucherConfidential) Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/   
    • DUMBSHELL:  re the automation of corruption ---  200,000 "Science Papers" in academic journal database PubMed may have been AI-generated with errors, hallucinations and false sourcing 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.