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Nextek

Good poker players make good trader?

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Anyone have any opinion on this? Im not a poker player myself but the game seems fairly similar.

 

They are both a game of probabilities and discipline. In my opinion, a good poker player can transform himself into a good trader alot easier than a bad poker player. He has the basics done in terms of the mental aspect of the game.

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Anyone have any opinion on this? Im not a poker player myself but the game seems fairly similar.

 

I would have to say yes. I played professiona poker prior to trading. :) Probably the only reason why I changed careers was because of its similarity. One thing I learned from poker that has helped me in the trading businesss is discipline and consistency.

 

There are two kinds of players. A cowboy and a true grinder. I was a grinder aiming for consistent profits on a daily basis. Alot of poker players will never make it as a trader though. Most of the newcomers now play for the excitement and not for the money.

 

When I used to play 10-14 hours a day, poker was complete boredom. After a while, you design your own set of rules and system to follow by. You add a couple tricks here and there but overall the game is the same. Discipline and patience.

 

Trading is the same. At times trading can be extremely exciting. Other times completely boring. From my understanding, Chris Ferguson, the 2000 WSOP champion is a trader also?

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I think I read an article somewhere on Chris Ferguson and how he trades for a hedge fund now. I may be wrong.

 

Alot of traders are hardcore poker players. I host poker games every weekend and all my buddies are investment bankers or institutional traders. I think its in the blood.

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Both games require a similar set of skills. Losing money comes with the game. Learning to accept this is necessary for a trader. In no-limit holdem, you may invest a decent amount into the pot with a AK. However if the flop is useless and your opponent raises 20-30% of your stake after the flop, you will need to fold your hand.

 

Similar to trading, no matter good the setup may look there is always a possibility of losing on that trade. One must understand this concept or else you will trade on the tilt. Players on a tilt are sure losers.

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Im a good poker player... been playing for over 8 years now.

 

However I am a struggling trader. Poker and trading is very similar. But it does take some time to understand the similarities. Hopefully I can turn around my trading with more experience.

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I think the two are linked. At one of the trading firms I've been at in the past, every single trader played poker in their free time. Like others have mentioned before me, both require discipline and patience, both of which are traits which can be learned and improved.

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Playing Poker and Trading Stocks requires a similar kind of mentatility, and the ability to hold your nerve in difficult situations.

 

A good Poker player could easily become a good Trader, if they have an interest in the markets, as the skills are transferable. If you think about it, Poker players play Poker because they are attracted by the game, this is still the same with the Stockmarket and Traders.

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Interesting question... I think a good trader can be a poker player good enough to be able to live of it. As some may know, I am a former poker player turned trader. Alot of similarities in the game. The way you trade Torereo (2-3 trades a day) Im sure you will no problem raking money from the poker tables.

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I've never played much poker, but there is a social poker club I've been thinking of joining. I may learn a thing or two that might enhance my trading? But card reading can't be transfered to trading?!;)

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Excellent article! I have a few questions about the tactics.

 

 

5 Varying your bets. One of the most powerful tools in any game is the ability to change your bet when you have an edge. This is true for blackjack, poker, and trading. You don’t start a new strategy with 5,000 shares; you work up to bigger trade size.

 

 

I understand this might very important in poker. I haven't really used this method as I've backtested with the same size. Although there are tools out there, position-sizing skews statistics on probability of your strategy because it doesn't determine when your strategy is at its trading best. Only after a while do you know in what condition and situation your strategy is best can you size it up.

 

6 Betting for information. In poker, a small bet is sometimes used to gain information about your opponent’s hand. In trading, you may use a small trade to gain information about the presence of buyers or sellers. With both games, using that information is key to your eventual success.

 

I've actually heard some traders do this, putting a small position to determine if there is bid or ask out there to see where the buyers and sellers are. I don't use this myself since charts with volume already showed where they are likely to be at (ie. S/R).

 

2 Number of outs. The more ways you have to make a hand, the greater your probability of successes. In trading, the more ways you have to hedge a trade, the more outs you have, and the greater your chances of success.

 

I'm not sure about #2. I don't understand what this mean. Anyone can explain this point?

 

Any input on this or any other points from this article. It's a fascinating article.

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Hello Torero,

 

Man! I can talk about poker all day if I could. Poker is a game of pyschology and probability. Theres a good quote from the movie Rounders.

 

"If you dont know who the sucker is in the first 10 minutes... you are the sucker."

 

In poker, you can apply many different strategies just like trading. You can choose to trap your opponent, play him straight up, or make it manipulative in case your opponent is good enough to start reading your mind. A good poker player understands that predictability is no good. Therefore good players have a mixture of style. They play aggressive when they have to and tight or conservative at times.

 

In poker a small bet is usually done to obtain information about your opponent. Of course if your opponent is good enough he will raise you on top. However, if the opponent calls (just matches my bet) this can be indicated as weakness and I can raise bigger on the next card. It all depends on the size of the pot you are trying to win. No reason to push your chips in the pot if the pot size is small to begin with. Good hands may come once an hour.... it is up to the player how to monetize off this.

 

I like to raise on most decent hands. This forces the weaker hands to leave the action. The last thing I want happen is a weak hand to turn into a monster because the opponent had some free draws. You better pay to see the next card... and I will make it expensive for you.

 

In no-limit holdem, a player can bet his entire stake in any given hand. "Outs" are referred to as the cards that you can catch to help improve your hand. If I am holding two cards AK suited spades, and the board shows 2 spades... I have 9 outs to make a flush. However, whats important to keep in mind is that there is a possibility that a player who folded before you was holding a spade. So in my opinion, whenever I am in a situation for a flush draw, ideally I would have 9 outs but I like to substract 3 cards from it. (making it 6 outs in theory)

 

Poker on a professional level is mainly about picking your opponents and understanding his strength and weaknesses. If I sit down on a table... the big chip leader is the last person I want to mess with. The little guys are the ones I want to battle to build my stake. Chip size is king. Without chips you are pressured with every raise. Therefore the chip leader is the bully and good players want to be on good terms with him.

 

Very similar concept in trading.... we want to follow the big players not the little guys. Afterall most of the little guys end up losing.

 

The pyschology of understanding your opponent is very similar in poker and trading as well. Big traders leave footprints.. and it is my job to understand what they are trying to do. In poker, I watch for tells. I will watch every single player see his hand before I see my own. I ask these questions:

 

Why did he spend a few seconds longer this time to watch his cards? Why did he take a bigger drag out of his cigerette? Why is he looking quiet all of a sudden? Why the bigger raise all of a sudden? Why blink? Why talk before he bet? etc... All these information are clues for me to understand my opponent. There are times when I can completely guess the two cards my opponent is holding without looking at his cards. I understand what type of cards he plays and his tells. I compare this information to the set of cards I am holding and the number of players in the pot... and I am able to assume his holding hand. Very similar concept in trading dont you think?

 

I can go on and on about poker.... so Ill end it here for now. :)

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I guess this one of the reasons why it's a difficult adjustment for floor traders to electronic traders like us. Without seeing the human interactions and body language and only charts, this is something new to them to get used to.

 

You also bring up something very interesting. The big pockets usually the ones that can take you of the game. I read a trading book or article (this the above article) somewhere that make a comparison to poker that the odds of making it also depends on your funds level. The probability of smaller players will get wiped out is much higher. So in all, the average investor has very little chance of survival?

 

So is card reading more important than player reading?

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Its a combination of both. Its important to know what type of cards each player likes to play with. Also the style he uses depending on the hand.

 

With the ability to read the player and the ability to understand the cards folded by other players... you can increase your odds of knowing what your opponent has just by looking at the flop. (I hope this makes sense)

 

I did make the transition from playing poker to playing online poker. Although I am still very profitable in both I find online a harder game. Probably related to the adjustments floor traders need to make when going electronic.

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Just like poker, I think sports betting and trading are also very similar; from my experience, when I put my money on the line win or lose I just don't look back; it takes the edge of off the uncontrolled emotions during trades.

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I would have to say yes. I played professiona poker prior to trading. :) Probably the only reason why I changed careers was because of its similarity. One thing I learned from poker that has helped me in the trading businesss is discipline and consistency.

 

There are two kinds of players. A cowboy and a true grinder. I was a grinder aiming for consistent profits on a daily basis. Alot of poker players will never make it as a trader though. Most of the newcomers now play for the excitement and not for the money.

 

When I used to play 10-14 hours a day, poker was complete boredom. After a while, you design your own set of rules and system to follow by. You add a couple tricks here and there but overall the game is the same. Discipline and patience.

 

Trading is the same. At times trading can be extremely exciting. Other times completely boring. From my understanding, Chris Ferguson, the 2000 WSOP champion is a trader also?

 

James,

 

Just to confirm, yes I remember reading that Chris Ferguson and apparently a few other WSOP bracelet winners trade with Bright Trading....not sure if they still do, but Don Bright, the owner of Bright Trading made that claim a little while back.

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Anyone have any opinion on this? Im not a poker player myself but the game seems fairly similar.

 

stop pokering around. you will lose your money. 90% does. Only the serious onces, whi study for reak, and take good moneymanagement, and stoplossed can earn something. no pokerplay at all! :crap:

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To my mins, they cannot be compared.

Price is either gonna go up....or it's gonna go down.

 

I am going to be right or wrong....not worried about who is on the other side. All the theory and degrees in the world isn't gonna change price either moving up or down. I make the most intelligent decision I can...and back it up with a few bucks. That's trading.

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