zdo

db, Thanks for your reply – so elegant so arrogant :o I was not questioning your paradigm at all. But, despite your excellent observations about “difference(s) in perceptual and conceptual constructs”, etc, I continue to question how clearly you actually communicate it to others vs how clearly you think and feel you communicate it to others. And your points about screen-time and study are not lost here. I have no doubt you see something and that you see that others are missing seeing it – but I can guarenfreakintee you it isn’t only and broadly ‘price action and volume’ or SR lines on a short time frame. For example: The “stretching” itself in any given WRB, wide spread bar, high range bar, etc, may generate just as much ‘resistance’ as does some horizontal zone or line indicating some quality and quantity of ‘memories’. In real time, this same “stretching” may also not happen to generate any resistance at all, just as any given horizontal R line may perhaps provide no more resistance than a jet vapor trail would to an ascending space shuttle. And either case can occur regardless of volume / activity patterns! Happens all the time. You’re scaring me db. I’m starting to suspect you are seeing things you aren’t conscious you are seeing. I’m wary that you may start manifesting things you are not conscious you are manifesting. Have a good one.

re: "…The "WRB", in other words, disappears when the price action is displayed in another interval. The price action is the same; the only thing that's changed is the means by which it is displayed." Yes that is true. But, in other intervals, a run up into resistance (etc) does not disappear. Please be careful here - and I know we've had to deal with this issue before on T2W. You are again questioning the other's representation system without really fully explaining how yours is different / better. Even though I could see how you might feel you have explained it ad infinitum elsewhere, there are aspects to it that you are possibly so 'unconsciously competent' at seeing that you don't even realize they are a part of but not explicit your processing of price action. I'm not making you wrong. And please don’t let anyone run you off. I’m asking you to explain the difference – besides the obvious fact of different representations of the same market action. Everything we see on our screens is a representation of the market – not the market itself. It is all at least a once removed map of the auction – whether one is looking at T&S, MP, Ohlc, Candle, Tic, CRB, P&F, MarketDelta, or lord knows what else. And Eiger - I can say with certainty that all these posters you are chiding for going off topic are actually here in this thread to learn VSA and also that there is no way on earth they can suddenly divorce their old representation systems and ‘think’ pure VSA just like you or Tom or… Taking those same time periods and showing the VSA interpretation of the same market activity, rather than make others wrong for the way they represent the action to themselves is the best way to keep them on track.

You might consider a one month subscription to TradeStation. $100 ?? It's good for prototyping and visual marking etc.

The long and winding fork that leads to this point... "You left me standing here A long long time ago Dont leave me waiting here Lead me to your door"

Hi mister ed, Those screen shots didn't turn out very well - maybe because I was taking wide shots or maybe TS jpg's aren't that great. They show fine in desktop viewer though. Anyway - These are one minute ohlc bars with a 'gold' color. The range is not impacted by the HA's at all. They are a paint bar overlay. The modified HA's never extend beyond the high or low. so Yes - regular 1 minute bar have the same range as the modified HA bars Hth. If not pls rephrase the question - we'll get it straight.

Too late to edit previous post. The first picture was from yesterday not today. I just scrolled back and snapped something. Here is one from today during approximately same time period. Shows same tendencies (Also Admin/Mods, please feel free to move all three of these posts to the WRB thread if you like...)

More re voracity of exiting on WRB's from a couple posts back… Attached is an illustration of this concept from midday today on a 1min YM. It's not parabolic action, but the Dow did trend climb 100 points in the two hours shown. The blue dots mark any bar whose range is greater than 2.8 StdDev of the last 100 bars ATR (or AR ?). Almost all of them portend a turn or a correction of some magnitude on next or next after bar - even if it’s only a pause or tiny “RossHook” type of pullback. This is only to illustrate that the concept of exiting on very WRB is not completely bogie. Better than staying in? Again, that seems to be an issue of individual style and tactics. Notes: This only measures wide range, not WRB’s proper, but most instances of very WRB’s would be in any sample of these. Also note these are modified HA’s, not candles. Stats are even better on tick charts...

BlowFish, What brownsfan019 has observed is sound statistically. As you have clearly supported in your post, WRB are not good signs of an end of trend. However, a large % of very large range bars (and WRB’s) on shorter timeframes do mark a temporary turn or presage a retracement (however large or small) turn by one bar - and do so with increasing frequency when they occur deeper into the impulse. Getting the most out of the current impulse may be all he is looking for. (ie this is getting more relevant now to individual dispositions, preferences, tendencies, and tactics than it is to understanding markets / charts in general...) In the ideal one would exit at the extremes of WRB neighborhood and skillfully re- enter at an optimal place in the ensuing retracement to fully participate in the ongoing trend...

re: "What data feed you use?" Tradestation - I think they are on Gain datafeed... Don't know...I trade futures Here's why I was asking about that fork Had to fudge the bottom of the fork to get it to fit. It took an unusually long time to develop / unfold And was just wondering what the experts' impressions of it were?????? In the last hour, it has breeched the center line by a little bit on my chart Somethings got to give soon - all three EURUSD, USDJPY, and EURJPY are going up. Usually two are contra directional and one drifting or two going in one direction while one goes in the other... I guess you could consider USDJPY the drifter for the day since it'e move is weaker but... Thanks

(Dear Mr. Morge) What's wrong with this picture?

please spec out a little bit more about what you mean by 1 "upward trend". is the lowest low >= 4 bars ago or must the trend members lows all be higher than previous low or _______ ??? thx

This thread could also be titled : The slow group needs help from the smart group We need help shrinking / resolving inconsistencies between 1 VSA (Williams book, TG, and purists’ commentary, et al) and 2 Wycoff purists and 3 SMI and 4 DbPhoenix work Step 1 Order of analysis ?? (First you look at _____, then you check ___, etc) VSA ?? Wycoff purists ?? SMI ?? DbPhoenix ?? help! Step 2 Terminology ??? Example: Here’s one way I am currently shrinking / resolving any inconsistencies between VSA (book and purists’ commentary) and the other approaches. Whenever I read or infer the terms ‘professionals’ or ‘smart money’, I substitute the word ‘size’ – particularly in any VSA content. An example from MTMv3, I would read “…markets move because of the effect of professional accumulation or distribution. If a market is not supported by professional activity, it will not go very far… ” (pg 39 pdf) as “…markets move because of the effects of size accumulating or distributing. If a market is not supported by size, it will not go very far…" need help making other differentiations and distinctions where terminology may be impeded our understanding of these various volume approaches. Step 3 Stability Context ??? (continuing from Step 2... "go very far…") ... And, yes, size needs to be smart or it won’t stay ‘size’ for long - but that’s not the point. Neither is it the point that size, to be effective / create results, may need to be size ‘known to be in the know’ (ie ‘professionals’). The point is that at and during the occurrence of all these Wycoff and VSA based volume dynamics / patterns, the market is not in a place of precarium (where a single car could trigger a bifurcation). Size participates in high volume wide range, etc and either size participates in tests or no test even occurs, etc. And size is intrinsic to the whole prerequisite process where a ‘crossing the stream’ can occur, etc Db’s volume dynamics / patterns / processes are a slightly different animal. Db’s processes / volume indicators (that oughta wake him up! just zinging you buddy :haha::helloooo: Just a tiny bit more seriously, I hope it will elicit new contructs or perspectives or ways of describing it from you) form in a more local context at pre-selected potential SR and are much less dependent than Wycoff or VSA patterns on a broad sequence of activity and its ‘correct’ result on the chart (ie on a background formed by many ‘bars’). i.e. Although size has dominated at least some occasions in the formation of an SR zone (or line, etc), his work does not require the same background / size setup / footprint as VSA setups His triggers generally occur in more routine market conditions that are actually closer to instability but it is still less likely a single car could trigger a bifurcation. (and, also, the order of analysis may be quite different from the VSA contexts – comments anyone?) A step closer to precarium … Then there are those more rare moments / dynamics / processes when a single car could and does trigger instability and in these conditions, size will often contribute to / exacerbate the sudden instability by ‘gettin the ‘#vck’ out of the way Step 4 Pattern size / Number of bars needed to form a gestalt ???? help! Step 5 ???? help! Step 6 ???? help! .... Please offer your additions, perspectives, fill in the blank areas, and make corrections where content is 'out to lunch' to help clarify the differences between these 'volume' approaches. Thanks

Good distinctions btwn coaching and mentoring and teaching, Candle. All three want to help the student help themselves Teachers want to impart the information and methods and get out. Coaches want to work with the individual or unit at levels beyond information and skills. Mentors want to model exploration in a ‘right living’ sort of way. As I have posted elsewhere, the chances of finding a trading coach that can see the fine details (like Tiger’s coach) of how you can improve instead of trying to impose his own subjective improvement plan onto the student are EXTREMELY low. 90% of trading coaches are ‘wounded healers’, really in it to fix themselves. Mostly they attract traders who have already sustained significant ‘psychological damage’ (in the MarkDouglas sense), and they are not anywhere close to competent enough to help the trader recover… They leave a trail of low value service behind them - and as soon as they ‘get it’ for themselves they no longer coach Golf is a single game to refine a limited number of swings. Trading is thousands of games. Of the remaining 10% of coaches, one would still have to find one with an sufficient level of style and personality match. “It’s not whether you can be a good trader; it’s whether you can find the trading that’s good for you.” (B Steenbarger in ETP) and if you are being coached by someone who has style biases even just a little bit out of phase with yours– the relationship accomplishments will be drastically reduced. Bottom line – finding a coach who “construes” across enough dimensions almost the same as you is like finding that one particular single cell individual in the ocean. ____________________________________ Darth, exposing that baby to such material is just plain wrong and you know it. I'm calling Child Protective Services. :o

On one level a mentor would not charge one thin dime – unless s/he needs the money. (and then the question becomes is s/he eligible to mentor :hmmmm: ) The mentor would feel ‘payed’ by being blessed to have found someone willing to do the work, answer the tough questions, and develop in accordance with their own nature. Most potential mentors believe that the most important function is imparting knowledge / sharing shortcuts and techniques. NOT! The mentor’s most important function is asking the right questions of the student at the right time - Questions that engage the ‘whole brain’. Qualified questions will test of the efficacy of the relationship for both sides and will prevent either party from ever ‘wasting’ the other’s time or money. Ask the mentoree to clarify their goals for the process. Ask the mentoree to place a value on what that would be worth to him/her when goals are accomplished and s/he is operational at new level. Have mentoree contract to pay that amount ( or percentage of profits) if s/he feels the original goals were accomplished in the training period.

Yes GV is useless for back testing. Only holds one / real time / current value hth

milliard , et al, would it ever be to certain parties advantage just to shut down the retail data feed for a while? does that happen? just heard that most fx feeds had interuptions today in hardly fast conditions... Many thanks, zdo

Bumped or not :\ - in general RSI will cause far more trouble than benefit - unless one really knows how (and when!) to use it. RSI(c,2)...:did I say that?:

zeon, Think fast - I’m going to sling some Mark Douglas at you :idea: “Anything can happen” and “What happens if you take this setup 30 times?” …same applies to the ‘frustrating’ trade you posted the other day (over in VSA2 I think) zdo

That does illustrate some of the differences my original and general question was about. Thanks Db. A regular chart with a volume study would also be appreciated as that is what most of us are studying RT. Does the same period on a regular time bar chart show the same process? Yesterday, jjthetrader replied to my question about volume patterns in value and volume patterns away from value area with “I don't find them any different at extreme levels. If they're going to happen they're going to look the same where ever you are. It's just way easier to take the trade when you're at S&R.” I too have observed that they can and do pop up anywhere. But, if nothing else, the ‘background’ is different for SR’s in ‘value area’ and SR’s outside of ‘value area’ in tails. Let’s narrow the question some to triggered ‘no demand’ and ‘no supply’. Is there consensus that no differentiations should be made about whether price is in value area or out of value area? And only that it’s preferable for these ‘patterns’ (using the word for brevity only db ) to occur at SR? Thanks, zdo

Thanks Db. Any observations on this from the VSAers - Do you find Volume patterns at SR’s near ‘central tendency’ (POC, etc, not nec MA mean) different than Volume patterns are at extreme SR’s (tails, spikes, etc.)?

Hi all, Hope this question does not turn out to be ‘too general’ and it is intended for all – Wycoffers, VSAers, and PVers in general. Threaded through this material are concepts associated with ‘reversion’. Are the crucial Volume patterns used at SR’s near ‘central tendency’ (POC, etc.) different from the Volume patterns found at extreme SR’s (near tails, spikes, etc.)? Thanks, zdo

Db, Curiosity question -where and when did you get / come up with the oval concept. thx zdo

Db, So what are your optimum ‘ages’ of SR levels for the time frames you trade for you to have maximum confidence in them? A related but much more general question – what is your criteria for placing your S and R lines? Importance equals ?? And if you have discussed this at length elsewhere, links would be appreciated. Thanks. zdo

db Everything you have posted in this thread has been off topic and off color, AND everything you posted has been extremely grounding and helpful! so stop trying to stop getting off topic and stop trying to stop hijacking and only get out of VSA II if you keep referring ppl to your blog instead of answering their questions... ie just keep on coming with plain speak… re: “When I see selling drying up at support, I go long.“ “When I see buying dry up at resistance, I short” For those who have never actually perceived ‘selling drying up’ what is the actual process you see. If chart patterns (or indicators, etc) aren’t used, then what is the process by which you ‘see’ selling drying up? Basically, instead of what are the chart patterns? – What are your brain patterns? Many thanks, zdo

Calling all you cynical VSA’rs Got any commentary on this chart? Actually the less jaded (like dbPhoenix) are also encouraged to Wycoff / chime in. zdo PS And welcome aboard db. Not as much button pushing here as over on t2w. All the best.