[Ingot54]

Every time I hear someone recommend a good trading book - out trot the old chestnuts ... Mark Douglas, Van K Tharpe, Brett Steenbarger, Janice Dorn, Curtis faith, Rick Bookstabber and even Jack Schwager ... all come out as "the best book I ever read" ... or ... "the book I would recommend first."

But do these books really make a difference? Can anything we read really make a difference to how we approach trading? Is the "Psychology of Trading" a legitimate therapy for traders, or just a convenient add-on, taken up by Psychologists and Psycho=therapists who want to cash in on yet another field ripe for the picking?

I have certainly read my share of good books - and I have even recommended a few at times too. But I am yet to meet one trader whose trading success is down to the efforts of Psychological intervention in their approach to trading.

Sure, there are those who swear by NLP, but there are also those who have received zero assistance from this therapy too. And I can tell you that through my 2 readings of each of "Trading in the Zone" and "Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom", I have to say that I can not, today, remember any single piece of instruction from either, that has lifted my trading to another level.

I think it might be time to take a second look at this industry.

We are so indoctrinated these days to think - "It's not your fault. You were emotionally damaged as a child. You need to have some therapy to deal with your demons, and then you will be fine," that we lose sight of the fact that real men have "true grit".

Think about it - did your daddy or your mummy solve their head problems through going to a shrink ... reading books, 230 sessions with a psychologist? ... or did they just get on with it, and knuckle down and deal with things as they came?

Look, I am not saying that there are not real cases where issues of confidence or procrastination, impulse and so on can be helped by having someone more experienced to bounce ideas off. Of course such situations exist, and of course professionals might have some sort of role in that.

But for goodness sakes, why do we always tend to blame our damaged psychology every time we stuff it up in executing our trades?

It's wrong, in my view. And to put it as bluntly as I can, I think it is time traders found some balls. It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency - otherwise known as (you guessed it - the most clichéed and least understood word in trading) ... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.

Face it - if you can not handle the markets you trade, then it is probably likely that you lack a half-proper trading plan, strategy, money management and strict WRITTEN rules. Or you are attempting to trade with insufficient capital, too much leverage, the wrong instrument for your personality and risk profile, or the wrong timeframe.

Have you EVER seriously looked at those issues, instead of running off to read the latest "self-help" guru's offering? I'll wager right now that 95% of traders on this site do NOT have a Written Trading Plan ... a number that strangely coincides with the same number of traders that fail to make any profits in the markets!!

The next thing a mature trading approach might call for, is to study ONE instrument, in ONE time frame and MASTER that single entity, before attempting to move on to other situations.

What I am getting at here, is that we really need to STOP navel-gazing, and STOP wondering if there is some elusive demon driving our trading decisions.

Instead, why not spend some time actually getting to really KNOW the market you are attempting to trade, and stop being like a butterfly and jumping from one bright flower to the next. Stop hoping that the trading idea of the century is just one more system/strategy/signal service/indicator or different instrument away.

You mother doesn't trade - stop expecting someone to do it all for you. Get some cojones and get serious about some decent learning effort. Stop the wishing and the yearning. Learn to master your market.

Now there's a good topic for a book!

[JEHs]

Interesting observations about the books and "the psychological side of trading". The same, of course, could be said of forums, such as this. There is very little of any value here...anything that will take you to that next level.
...but if there is anything that someone else can say to us to help us, your posts are coming about as close as one could get. I had all but stopped reading anything here and my visits had gotten fewer and farther between, but lately I find myself checking back daily...
A while back I got a restaurant gift card from here for $25.00 for starting a thread here:
I should give it to you since I live 200 miles from the nearest restaurant that would take it. Your posts are certainly more deserving of it than mine was...

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks,

JH

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

We are so indoctrinated these days to think - "It's not your fault. You were emotionally damaged as a child.

... why do we always tend to blame our damaged psychology every time we stuff it up in executing our trades?

... I think it is time traders found some balls. It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency ...

... if you can not handle the markets you trade, then it is probably likely that you lack a half-proper trading plan, strategy, money management and strict WRITTEN rules.

Or you are attempting to trade with insufficient capital, too much leverage, the wrong instrument for your personality and risk profile, or the wrong time frame.

... study ONE instrument, in ONE time frame and MASTER that single entity...

... spend some time actually getting to really KNOW the market you are attempting to trade, and stop ... jumping from one bright flower to the next. Stop hoping that the trading idea of the century is just one more system/strategy/signal service/indicator or different instrument away.

Your mother doesn't trade - stop expecting someone to do it all for you ... get serious about some decent learning effort.
Stop the wishing and the yearning.
Learn to master your market.

A few of the above points were probably covered in this thread:

http://traderslaboratory.com/forums/...ader-9208.html

But the point of THAT thread is that for things to change, YOU have to be FED UP with your current situation. The Youtube clips on posts #3 and #6 have a VERY powerful message - ONLY when you are SO disgusted with your situation ... when you are totally at your limit of frustration ... when you are on the point of giving up, or breaking through, will you find the drive to do what you HAVE to do.

Take responsibility for the silly ( a euphemism for something more vernacular) trading decisions that are repeated trade after trade, and STOP what you are doing, until you FIX what is wrong.

If you can't objectively look at my first post in this thread, and identify even ONE factor that you could really do something about this weekend, then I doubt you are serious about ever making money in this game.

I can tell you that I have some issues to overcome - and one of them is ... IMPULSE! The way I overcame that, is to follow my written trading plan. You can NOT enter an impulse trade if you are following a trading plan to the letter.

If you ignore the plan, and just trade on hunch ... just once ... then you are NOT READY to succeed at trading ... and perhaps you might be better spending your time working on a lotto plan!

How many times have we heard that the trading world is full of sharks ... that we are trading against other VERY smart traders ... that we can not win every trade ... that draw down is a big part of every trade ... and so on. yet despite all those warnings, we have traders who fail to have a written plan, and who persist in trading instruments, time frames and markets, in an under-capitalized state, with too much leverage, and then complain that they can't make trading pay.

Yep. The idea of this thread is that you have to cut the strings with your mother. She is NOT going to show you how to trade. Trading is NOT a boys game. You have to get to a point where you show you have the 'nads to succeed. Persistence, passion, patience, perception, are all good things to possess, but totally useless if, in the final execution of the trade, you fail to observe all the preparation that has gone before.

Success is finally up to YOU.

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by JEHs »

Interesting observations about the books and "the psychological side of trading". The same, of course, could be said of forums, such as this. There is very little of any value here...anything that will take you to that next level.
...but if there is anything that someone else can say to us to help us, your posts are coming about as close as one could get. I had all but stopped reading anything here and my visits had gotten fewer and farther between, but lately I find myself checking back daily...
A while back I got a restaurant gift card from here for $25.00 for starting a thread here:
I should give it to you since I live 200 miles from the nearest restaurant that would take it. Your posts are certainly more deserving of it than mine was...

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks,

JH

Thank you for your very nice sentiments JH.

The truth is that I am just one very fed up trader too. I got to the stage where I knew that I can trade successfully but was constantly sabotaging my accounts by taking trades that were well outside my own rules.

It doesn't get any more pathetic than that, I can tell you.

I can tell you one thing though - I never stop asking questions and seeking out the things that successful traders do, that is different from what I do. You know what? There is very little to be changed.. So far all I have been able to discover is that other traders who I believe ARE successful, have different systems and trade different markets and different time frames, but they STILL have to deal with the SAME issues that I deal with.

So ... what to do?

The answer is not going to be found in a seminar, or a book, or a coaching session - that sticks out like the dog's credentials. If the answers WERE found in those things, then most traders WOULD already be successful, because word would soon get around that a certain coach, course, book, seminar ext was the answer, and traders would be lined up nine deep to get that information for themselves.

They are not. The book sellers/coaches go to #1 for a year, then drop into obscurity - only to surface when someone suddenly remembers "oh, that is a good book ... course ... coach". The truth is, 99% of what the coach said, or what was heard at the seminar/webinar, or what was in the book, is forgotten on Monday morning, and the other 1% is never applied with zest.

We part with $39.95 for a book; $2,000 for a seminar; $3k to $7k for a coach. And are we better traders for it?

Look - I have to get right back to my original point here - all these things are props ... hand-holding. In my analogy, they are "your mother" standing by to rescue you. I have news for all those who fit that picture - your mother can't trade. She is not going to help you on this one - even if she wanted to.

Trading is NOT for boys - it is for those who have learned to stand on their own feet, and take responsibility for the necessary learning, planning, commitment and discipline (consistent application of the plan) that is required to make a trade come together.

There is nothing much more to it than that. I do not like to waste my time or anyone else's with BS - anything I post is designed to take others forwards, or bring myself closer to an understanding of something lacking in myself. Even my blog - taken as the exercise that it was - was a confirmation to myself of what is necessary.

The things I have written in this thread, and in the one in the link in post #3, is as serious and as genuine as I can get. I can not put it any more plainly - you will learn to trade well when you are ready to do what is necessary to win. I have listed ALL of the requirements.

I can trade successfully myself, but I still seek a further edge to lift my trading to the wildly successful level I know I can achieve, and which I know is waiting for me. I WILL succeed in this - nothing can stop me. I have it in my bile, my gut, my waking and sleeping moments, and in the time I spend reading and writing on forums. I have a desire to bring struggling traders along with me, and that is why I write the way I do.

No one has to know or understand my background, but I can tell you there are things that cause us to crash, or crash through.

Do you have any of that?

If you do, then you WILL get there mate. Do not give up.

[TradeRunner]

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

And I can tell you that through my 2 readings of each of "Trading in the Zone"

Hi Ingot

How did you get on with the exercise in chapter 11 of "Trading in the Zone"?

TradeRunner

[Cory2679]

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency - otherwise known as (you guessed it - the most clichéed and least understood word in trading) ... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.

I admittedly have not read through this entire thread, but I did want to say that in my experience, the trading psychology books (ie Douglas) advocate the very same thing that I quoted you saying here!

I disagree with the notion that rather than addressing psychological issues, people should just man up and shut up, and push through. While it is certainly one way to go, I feel like it's not the best way. I think the best way is to address and attempt to resolve the real psychological issues.

To me, it's like driving with all flat tires...you can just keep on going and push through it, not addressing the problem directly, but wouldn't it be a much better idea to stop, inflate the tires to the proper pressure, then continue on your way? It's certainly going to be a hell of a lot smoother journey!

[dryfterwylde]

Hey Ingot,

I have been a lurker in this forum for quite awhile, though after reading this post I feel the overwhelming urge to comment this time!

WELL SAID....believe it or not I think this post will help my trading. It’s almost like on some unconscious level we are all looking for an excuse outside ourselves to blame for our lack of achievements, whether in trading or life...like we are looking for someone to save us. I think the sooner you realize no one is coming to your rescue and that YOU are responsible for any and all of your results, the sooner you can take real, actionable steps towards making your goals come to realization.

Imagine if in the armed forces of any country just told the troops..."ok guys, new training program in from the brass...rather then eat mud, dig trenches and run PT and work till we drop everyday, we are going to become better soldiers by talking about the lack of love we received as children and how it might affect our ability to become better warriors for the next few months, then its off to the frontlines with our new found knowledge, the enemy will fear us for sure!!......."

While I do believe psychology has its place, it is no replacement for the willingness to stare deep into yourself to find the real problem and be willing to go up, over or right through the problem by putting the work in.

Anyways, well said man. Good no nonsense post.

[simonyadig]

Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am, but had I had a coach or mentor to help, it would have made things go a bit smoother at times. I have been helping many people learn to trade, and there is one in particular who at 18 months is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at that time. He picks my brain and applies that to his experiences, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't be at the same point without my assistance. My point isn't toot my horn, it's to say that there is benefit to be had from some of the things you mentioned. I read Van Tharps book, and while it didn't revolutionize my trading, it did get me to think about some very important things and in the end, I'd say that it was well worth the 40 bucks or whatever.