To Arm or to Disarm.

[Tams 20]

I nearly got shot in my sleep

 

I nearly got shot in my sleep - Imgur

 

 

[SunTrader 10]

"controlling" ?

 

"not done" ?

 

... "done"

 

On the surface of this post the apparent assumption is 'they' did something, anything to "control violence" which caused lower violence = hubris + more argumentum ad populum et ad nauseam

 

...meanwhile the number of illegal guns is as high as ever...

'Case in point NYC' - more likely the violent aspects of the culture in NYC changed on their own... not because of tough mayors or any of the other typical exciting stories told about how things change...

More incoherant babble from your part.

 

As Joe Pesci would say "Ad this". I am from NYC originally and know it was and is a change in how they police the streets.

 

The culture change was in the thinking of those who govern. Booting out those who were incompetent and/or corrupt.

 

But again it was not from the spread of more, more, more guns. Just the opposite.

[MightyMouse 12]

You’re projecting again… the ‘leadership’ word was used alone in my post… if we must qualify it, ‘strong and mean’ leadership would be a much better qualifier than ‘good’ …

 

Not projecting; instead, just having a good time. I thought it funny to envision tattooed skin heads singing choral tunes.

 

clarifying points for anyone who can follow… murders in a prison have a much higher “clear” rate than in a city… leadership must control occurrences more because, it is vastly easier to follow the chain of a gang kill in prison back up the hierarchy in prison than it is on the ‘outside’ ... and for individually or gang planned murders, it is much ‘easier’ get implicated and have sentence extended, etc, etc.

 

This may account for some of the reason why the homicide rate is low, but I doubt that it is all the reason.

 

 

… and instead of "chorus" and other activities, the leadership is busy on the ‘control’ of the (much tighter supplies of) objects and less reliable / harder to 'reinforce' human agents

 

It sounds like you agree that weapon control works in prison. Perhaps tighter supply and control of supply would work outside of prison too.

 

 

It is not comical to watch you focus all this energy into trying to stop future lanza’s that might “suddenly upset” you - by falsely associating those incidents with the all the violence in this culture, by trying to blame regular people for murders because some of us have guns, by thinking that taking our weapons would improve things “a little bit ”, and assert that would cause the murdering to fade away...

 

 

I might have argued against some of the reasons for you to want a gun, but I never once said that I want to take your gun away. If you are a nut, then sure I would want your gun taken away.

 

Meanwhile, while you stay energized by driving by Sandy H and fixated on all the wonderful things you could fix if you could get 1 gun off the streets, you drive by and don’t do a dam thing about incredible damage done to women, children, and other family members every day by those who would use force to get what they want… go away.

 

This is a thread on arming or disarming. I am not thinking about how many different things happen to people. Yes I was stirred to action by Sandyhook.

[MightyMouse 12]

Before you endorse policies, I implore you, consider a few questions:

 

1. What will this policy actually accomplish?

 

2. Who could conceivably benefit? I.e., cui bono?

 

3. What are the second-order effects of this policy? Is there any way it can be exploited or gamed?

 

I await your response.

 

If you don't mind, please list which proposed policy(ies) you would like me to share my opinion on.

[zdo 20]

Not projecting; instead, just having a good time. I thought it funny to envision tattooed skin heads singing choral tunes.

 

 

 

I might have argued against some of the reasons for you to want a gun, but I never once said that I want to take your gun away. If you are a nut, then sure I would want your gun taken away.

 

 

that mouse speak with forked tongue

 

 

 

It sounds like you agree that weapon control works in prison. Perhaps tighter supply and control of supply would work outside of prison too.

 

 

That is a very unrealistic “Perhaps”

… in our real world outside of prison “tighter supply and control of supply” is a TOTAL impossibility – unless you could and would extend the same strictures on movement of goods and people as are imposed inside, but then that would no longer be outside of prison, would it?

 

See where you’re really going with this?

Peep–control- freakn yet?

[zdo 20]

...it was not from the spread of more, more, more guns. .

 

more twisted reasoning in you ...and more word twisting from you...

 

I didn't claim it was from the spread of more guns...

I said the cultural changes - of which the factors we both mentioned are but a part - all occurred while the gun count (especially the illegal gun count) stayed relatively unchanged and high.

ie a "safer apple" was from a cultural change and not the spread of less, less, and less guns

[SunTrader 10]

I didn't claim it was from the spread of more guns...

I didn't say you did. I was making a point. And you as usual are not making a point - that is reality based anyway.

 

From a couple of years ago - and things have only gotten better since:

 

NYPD Press Release | NY Safest Big City

 

“The data reflects in no small measure the dedication and hard work of New York City Police officers, and the Mayor's commitment to keeping New Yorkers safe, year after year,” said Commissioner Kelly."

[MightyMouse 12]

more twisted reasoning in you ...and more word twisting from you...

 

I didn't claim it was from the spread of more guns...

I said the cultural changes - of which the factors we both mentioned are but a part - all occurred while the gun count (especially the illegal gun count) stayed relatively unchanged and high.

ie a "safer apple" was from a cultural change and not the spread of less, less, and less guns

 

The changes were for multiple reasons. The changes occurred across the country in other large cities during that time too. David Dinkins, knowing that he would be running against Guilianni, who had a reputation of being a tough crime fighter, increased the ranks of the police force. Over time, the added protection paid off. Guilianni came to office and he employed the "broken window" theory. Simply it is based on the idea that 80% of crime is committed by 20% of the people. It was an effective approach which helped too. The US economy had been improving for a period which generally means that there is less reason to steal. At the same time a tough gun policy was enforced.

 

Unconventionally, the author of Freakonomics makes a really good case that the overall drop in the crime rates was due to roe v wade. R v W had the impact of removing unwanted children from our planet. The argument is, loosely, that unwanted children are generally the children of poor people who would have a baby because they couldn't afford the procedure. Wealthy people could still afford to have abortions so the truly unwanted wealthy children would be disposed of in spite of abortion being illegal prior to R v W.

 

18 or so years after R v W the crime rate started dropping. Go figure. Freakonomics is a good read if anyone has not read it. I am only giving you a part of the story. Read it if you want to argue with me.

[Tams 20]

You, the gun enthusiasts, deserve a vote

 

Meet the Press

[zdo 20]

The changes were for multiple reasons.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Unconventionally, the author of Freakonomics makes a really good case that the overall drop in the crime rates was due to roe v wade. R v W had the impact of removing unwanted children from our planet. The argument is, loosely, that unwanted children are generally the children of poor people who would have a baby because they couldn't afford the procedure. Wealthy people could still afford to have abortions so the truly unwanted wealthy children would be disposed of in spite of abortion being illegal prior to R v W.

 

18 or so years after R v W the crime rate started dropping. Go figure. Freakonomics is a good read if anyone has not read it. I am only giving you a part of the story. Read it if you want to argue with me.

 

 

Actually “R v W” is just as good of one of those ‘multiple reasons’ as the other stories and opinions being thrown up as the truth. We could also factor in the ease with which the ‘dependency class’ was allowed to grow, etc etc...

 

SunGunner was pushing a single variable “point” that it was a shift in gov’t and law enforcement (while sneaking in as much ‘gun control’ propaganda as possible of course) that turned the crime tide in NYC. His opinions are not facts. ... he was not the only one "there" ...

I don’t discount those gov't and enforcement variables one bit…but, a point he doesn’t seem to want to allow is that a leading, independent, top down shift in the criminal element culture also occurred – many crime orgs ‘matured’, went into ‘legit bidnes’ , etc etc etc.

 

... and, meanwhile - the argumentum ad populum used by the to Disarms that urban US is “safer” because of gun control is false. Through the whole period being discussed – all the pertinant gun counts stayed relatively stable.

[zdo 20]

Another way of seeing it wasn’t all about a new ‘special’ mayors and ‘new attitude’ police, etc. in town:

> daily life in a (temporarily) less violent ‘NYC’ = the stealthy ascendance of

1) institutionalized, unprosecuted “accounting fraud” and

2) first gubmnt carried the hedge ‘expenses’ for risks taken, then proceeded on to transferring the risks to taxpayers... etc

These and other easy buttons in ‘tricking’ drastically reduced the need for ‘criminals’ to use force, violence, and weapons in taking .

 

( meanwhile

> daily life in amerika = they drive to walmart… again…and again…’forever’...:doh: )

 

 

 

_______________________________

 

 

"Don’t seek truth… "

[SIUYA 11]

Zdo - do you deliberately miss spell government etc;?

Is that so that when the UN 50 shades of grey helicopters come snooping around your internet posts will either not show up in the scans, or show up as someone who cant even spell hence is not a concern?

[SunTrader 10]

Another way of seeing it wasn’t all about a new ‘special’ mayors and ‘new attitude’ police, etc. in town:

> daily life in a (temporarily) less violent ‘NYC’ = the stealthy ascendance of

1) institutionalized, unprosecuted “accounting fraud” and

2) first gubmnt carried the hedge ‘expenses’ for risks taken, then proceeded on to transferring the risks to taxpayers... etc

.....

 

So now it is .... well violent crime is down but white collar crime isn't.

 

This is the arm or disarm thread. Not white or blue collar thread.

 

And 50 YEAR record low is not temporarily.

 

:haha:

[zdo 20]

So now it is .... well violent crime is down but white collar crime isn't.

 

This is the arm or disarm thread. Not white or blue collar thread.

 

And 50 YEAR record low is not temporarily.

 

 

ya'll brought this cultural sht up in the thread, not me ... and you tried to use it as 'reasons' to Disarm

 

the (temporary) low is great ...

 

meanwhile, non correlated gun count is still high - ( thankfully )

 

so, you've been making a fruitless gun control argument...

parroting the corporate media shills...

arguments published as 'truth'... ass nauseam

they need you and your just special little dittos.

 

 

 

 

 

_________________

 

"Don't seek truth...."

[zdo 20]

( thankfully ) here and there, others are starting to catch on

 

Washington State Democrats have sponsored Senate Bill 5737, which has a little provision that apparently was to go unnoticed that would have said that police have a right to search a private citizen’s home once per year if they own certain types of firearms.

 

According to the legislation:

In order to continue to possess an assault weapon that was legally possessed on the effective date of this section, the person possessing shall … safely and securely store the assault weapon. The sheriff of the county may, no more than once per year, conduct an inspection to ensure compliance with this subsection.

 

Yes, that means liberal Democrats pushed forward this legislation in open and defiance of the Fourth Amendment. But that’s not all. When they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they exclaimed it wasn’t their fault and that they made mistake.

 

“I have to admit it shouldn’t be in there,” said Sen. Ed Murray (D-Seattle). “I made a mistake,” said Sen. Adam Kline (D-Seattle). “I frankly should have vetted this more closely.”

 

Yeah, there was no mistake. This was deliberate. Murray and Kline were sponsors of the bill. They knew exactly what was in it. This is just more BS from the Left.

Murray also told a gun-control rally in January, “We will only win if we reach out and continue to change the hearts and minds of Washingtonians. We can attack them, or start a dialogue.”

 

Interestingly, Danny Westneat at the Seattle Times writes about Lance Palmer, a Seattle trial lawyer and self-described liberal. “I’m a liberal Democrat — I’ve voted for only one Republican in my life,” Palmer told me. “But now I understand why my right-wing opponents worry about having to fight a government takeover.”

 

He added: “It’s exactly this sort of thing that drives people into the arms of the NRA.”

 

Now this part is actually somewhat encouraging. If a self professed liberal Democrat, a trial lawyer at that, understands why we believe a real danger of government takeover and abandonment of the law of the land is genuine, then that is at least one guy who is thinking.

 

 

Dems Sponsor Bill To Violate Fourth Amendment Rights Of Gun Owners : Freedom Outpost

 

 

 

_________________

 

 

"Don't seek truth...."

[SunTrader 10]

...

 

the (temporary :rofl: ) low is great ...

 

so, you've been making a fruitless gun control argument...

parroting the corporate media shill..

 

 

There are corporations against guns, huh? Which ones are those. Maybe a shyster lawyer or two. But what corporation has a financial benefit from guns not being sold.

 

I know about the corporations for guns. Such as Smith&Wesson etc and your favorite retailer Walmart.

[zdo 20]

Zdo - do you deliberately miss spell government etc;?

Is that so that when the UN 50 shades of grey helicopters come snooping around your internet posts will either not show up in the scans, or show up as someone who cant even spell hence is not a concern?

 

"50 shades of grey" is already when

 

I "deliberately " don't edit for spelling, readability, sentence run on's and on's and on's... I don't have time. Often makes for difficult reading. If it ain't worth it to you... push the bignore button

and SunGun continually reminds us of how senseless my writing is... he's welcome to edit it for readabilty... for the forums' sake

He has also pointed out that I can’t make a point… yet I just made four

Here's two more .

Fish are becoming easier to catch 'because traces of anti-depressants are getting into water supply and making them more relaxed' | Mail Online

 

 

 

 

"Doctor, my eyes have seen the years

And the slow parade of fears without crying

Now I want to understand

I have done all that I could

To see the evil and the good without hiding

You must help me if you can

Doctor, my eyes

Tell me what is wrong

Was I unwise to leave them open for so long

'Cause I have wandered through this world

And as each moment has unfurled

I've been waiting to awaken from these dreams

People go just where there will

I never noticed them until I got this feeling

That it's later than it seems

Doctor, my eyes

Tell me what you see

I hear their cries

Just say if it's too late for me

Doctor, my eyes

Cannot see the sky

Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry "

Jackson Browne

 

 

 

( meanwhile

> daily life in amerika = they drive to walmart… again…and again…’forever’... )

 

whoops maybe not 'forever'

Retail Apocalypse: Why Are Major Retail Chains All Over America Collapsing?

 

:haha: good to know that at least SunGun's 50 year low is forever ...

 

:spam: warning

Self-inflicted psy-ops: Are you a victim of your own 'false flag' operation?

 

 

 

__________________

 

"Don't seek truth. ..."

[SunTrader 10]

Gun ban would protect more than 2,200 firearms

 

Gun ban would protect more than 2,200 firearms - Yahoo! News

 

What a joke," said former FBI agent John Hanlon, who survived the 1986 shootout in Miami. He was shot in the head, hand, groin and hip with a Ruger Mini-14 that had a folding stock. Two FBI agents died and five others were wounded.

 

+ + +

 

Indeed. What a joke. Well except the dying part.

[SunTrader 10]

"Doctor, my eyes have seen the years

....

 

You quote Jackson Browne to make a point about guns. He is a libber, don't you know.

 

:doh:

 

And it is SunNoGun to you mister.

[SunTrader 10]

 

:haha: good to know that at least SunGun's 50 year low is forever ...

 

 

"Don't seek truth. ..."

 

You should seek math.

 

50 year trend is closer to forever in a city 200+ years old (which unlike you I didn't mention) than temporary.

[smmatrix 11]

An excellent video outlining the true differences between a sport rifle and assault rifle.

 

[smmatrix 11]

Here's some interesting data, that I'm sure is ignored by the libnut gun grabbers.

 

[zdo 20]

Read at your own risk

 

 

 

SunTwister,

 

re "math" dang you're right. 2013 - 1625 does = 200 +

 

while we'd hope this "trend" does go on 'forever', some of us would also have to be realistic and see the possibility that it might gradually, or even suddenly, reverse...

 

and some of us would also have to be realistic and see the possibility that its continuation or reversal might not be caused by guns at all - like you and the completely in the tank to Disarm media 'corporations' try to keep telling us to believe...

 

 

 

You quote Jackson Browne to make a point about guns. He is a libber, don't you know.

 

:doh:

 

And it is SunNoGun to you mister.

 

SunNoPoint

 

The random Jackson Browne quote from a libber with a history of domestic abuse was not one of the points at all... The two points were made before the quote... you missed them (again).

sht, bud, I'd put my record of 'making' points up against your record of 'missing' them anyday. :rofl:

 

Just for you, I'll make another one - in bold this time

 

.

 

 

 

You're either 'twisting' points or you are 'missing' points

Example: when I added more to the very incomplete list of multiple variables (that all far outshine gun control as factors, btw) that contributed to the cultural changes in NYC you reply with

"So now it is .... well violent crime is down but white collar crime isn't."

as if I'm making an exclusive, one item assertion about "crime" or causation.

For what?

You're either 'twisting' points or you are 'missing' points

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________

 

"Don't seek truth. ..."

[zdo 20]

Please find amusing picture attached

[SunTrader 10]

 

SunTwister,

 

re "math" dang you're right. 2013 - 1625 does = 200 +

...

 

Dang after you get edumaketd with math go on to history.

 

Nu Yawk Shity is 200+ years old. New Amsterdam and also the period after the Dutch got booted when there was only some of Manhattan and nothing to do with the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island is not the "city" that I am talking about.