Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

JLJ

Leverage Only for Day Trading?

Recommended Posts

I always hear about using leverage for Day Trading, but I don't hear leverage mentioned re: swing trading. Is it not permitted by brokers (since they're basically lending you the money)? Or is it because leverage is too risky when you hold a position longer than a day, so people just _don't_ use it, even though they could?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you talking about margin requirements? There are different margin requirements for "patterned day traders" which is a term used in stock trading. I think firms have different rules/requirements regarding futures trading for those who employ stops and don't hold overnight vs. those who do. I'm not sure if these requirements are regulatory or firm risk management related.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In swing trading your basic options for buying/selling in a retail account are:

 

1) 1-1 ratio = You have $50k in your account, you can 'spend' $50k in trades.

 

2) Use margin (ratios vary) = You have $50k in your account and your broker allows you to use margin which increases your trading power but you also pay interest for that privilege.

Here's what Open ECry charges as an example.

 

Outside of that, you'd have to go the prop firm route to get even more buying power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally a way to think about them

Futures trading.....

the leverage is effectively given to you by the exchange and all trades are centralised. The margins they set allow you to leverage up.

CFDs, Swaps, FX....

leverage is given by the broker whereby there is no central clearing house and you trade with/against the actual broker. These are effectively continuous betting accounts whereby the account rises and falls depending on what happens with the underlying bet.

Stocks....

as you have to pay 100% for the stock through the exchange, the broker, or your margin lender effectively lends you this money and you owe them. (different but similar to going to the bank and borrowing the extra money and then going to the broker. eg; go to the bank with 50,000 deposit and say you wish to borrow another 100,000, then go to the broker and buy 150,000. But in this case the broker effectively is the bank. For this they will charge you an interest rate.)

 

As BrownsFan said, really understand what the broker, margin lender, spread better is offering.

It may result in different taxation positions and exposures. This can also delve into the world of understanding the differences between segregated accounts and non-segregated accounts.

The brokers should be able to completely explain this to you. If they dont adequately do this then either they dont know themselves or they are hiding something. There is no substitute for doing your own homework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would assume any retail broker offers margin, so that will probably be the quickest way for you to get more buying power. I used my margin quite a bit when I was swing trading to maximize my exposure. Of course, losses will sting even more - not only the loss of principal but you are also paying interest on that borrowed money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I see is that leverage IS available for swing trading, but most brokers will only give you half as much, because, yes, it is riskier when positions are held overnight. My broker gives 20:1 leverage for day trading, for example, but only 10:1 for overnight.

 

I always hear about using leverage for Day Trading, but I don't hear leverage mentioned re: swing trading. Is it not permitted by brokers (since they're basically lending you the money)? Or is it because leverage is too risky when you hold a position longer than a day, so people just _don't_ use it, even though they could?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have read this series of articles pertaining to leverage. The philosophy that for traders "Leverage is good, and more leverage is better" is maintained without reservations until the article "Leverage: Friend or Foe".

 

The author does not consider that a prop firm may give a lot more leverage. For daytrading, my broker gives 20:1 for Equities and Options.

 

After reading these articles, I wondered of there could be such a thing as TOO MUCH leverage.

 

 

 

 

 

There is a good article titled "Trading Using Leverage" at about.com. I think, it will be more helpful for you.

 

Source: Trading Using Leverage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have read this series of articles pertaining to leverage. The philosophy that for traders "Leverage is good, and more leverage is better" is maintained without reservations until the article "Leverage: Friend or Foe".

 

The author does not consider that a prop firm may give a lot more leverage. For daytrading, my broker gives 20:1 for Equities and Options.

 

After reading these articles, I wondered of there could be such a thing as TOO MUCH leverage.

 

You mentioned your broker gives you x20 buying power (leverage).

 

What broker do you use?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have read this series of articles pertaining to leverage. The philosophy that for traders "Leverage is good, and more leverage is better" is maintained without reservations until the article "Leverage: Friend or Foe".

 

The author does not consider that a prop firm may give a lot more leverage. For daytrading, my broker gives 20:1 for Equities and Options.

 

After reading these articles, I wondered of there could be such a thing as TOO MUCH leverage.

 

But I'd like to know what broker that offers you 20:1 leverage Flatbush?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're especially keen to trade with leverage, then you'll probably find it easier to obtain by focussing on instruments that a) are highly liquid, b) don't gap (24 hour session, or Cash plus Globex sessions), c) cannot lock limit.

 

This means focussing on instruments like stock index futures. As a daytrader, for example, you can readily control a single E-Mini S&P contract, which recently has had a value of between $60 and $70k, with about $500 in your brokerage account. Now I'm not suggesting that you should do that . . . but it gives you a good idea of where leverage is easy to come by.

 

Hope that's helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you're especially keen to trade with leverage, then you'll probably find it easier to obtain by focussing on instruments that a) are highly liquid, b) don't gap (24 hour session, or Cash plus Globex sessions), c) cannot lock limit....

 

that's right..and keep in mind that because you have a stop does not mean it will always be executed at the price you specified...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have read this series of articles pertaining to leverage. The philosophy that for traders "Leverage is good, and more leverage is better" is maintained without reservations until the article "Leverage: Friend or Foe".

 

The author does not consider that a prop firm may give a lot more leverage. For daytrading, my broker gives 20:1 for Equities and Options.

 

After reading these articles, I wondered of there could be such a thing as TOO MUCH leverage.

 

For those with lack of discipline and risk management, anything greater than 1:1 is too much leverage.

 

Michael Toma, CRM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
that's right..and keep in mind that because you have a stop does not mean it will always be executed at the price you specified...
If someone has a problem with this then they might as well pack it in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
it is like learning how to drive in a F1 racing car...learn how to drive before you try to break speed limits...

 

For day trades, I would second this.....learn how to drive the Volvo first (with paper money first)....then, when ya' get that down packed....consider the Ferrari....

 

But for swing trades...longer term trades....I advocate avoiding margin (but not leveraged ETFs which essentially have built in margin) alltogether...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For day trades, I would second this.....learn how to drive the Volvo first (with paper money first)....then, when ya' get that down packed....consider the Ferrari....

 

But for swing trades...longer term trades....I advocate avoiding margin (but not leveraged ETFs which essentially have built in margin) alltogether...

Hey btw it is down pat, not packed.

 

Volvo, really? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Be careful who you blame.   I can tell you one thing for sure.   Effective traders don’t blame others when things start to go wrong.   You can hang onto your tendency to play the victim, or the martyr… but if you want to achieve in trading, you have to be prepared to take responsibility.   People assign reasons to outcomes, whether based on internal or external factors.   When traders face losses, it's common for them to blame bad luck, poor advice, or other external factors, rather than reflecting on their own personal attributes like arrogance, fear, or greed.   This is a challenging lesson to grasp in your trading journey, but one that holds immense value.   This is called attribution theory. Taking responsibility for your actions is the key to improving your trading skills. Pause and ask yourself - What role did I play in my financial decisions?   After all, you were the one who listened to that source, and decided to act on that trade based on the rumour. Attributing results solely to external circumstances is what is known as having an ‘external locus of control’.   It's a concept coined by psychologist Julian Rotter in 1954. A trader with an external locus of control might say, "I made a profit because the markets are currently favourable."   Instead, strive to develop an "internal locus of control" and take ownership of your actions.   Assume that all trading results are within your realm of responsibility and actively seek ways to improve your own behaviour.   This is the fastest route to enhancing your trading abilities. A trader with an internal locus of control might proudly state, "My equity curve is rising because I am a disciplined trader who faithfully follows my trading plan." Author: Louise Bedford Source: https://www.tradinggame.com.au/
    • SELF IMPROVEMENT.   The whole self-help industry began when Dale Carnegie published How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936. Then came other classics like Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins toward the end of the century.   Today, teaching people how to improve themselves is a business. A pure ruthless business where some people sell utter bullshit.   There are broke Instagrammers and YouTubers with literally no solid background teaching men how to be attractive to women, how to begin a start-up, how to become successful — most of these guys speaking nothing more than hollow motivational words and cliche stuff. They waste your time. Some of these people who present themselves as hugely successful also give talks and write books.   There are so many books on financial advice, self-improvement, love, etc and some people actually try to read them. They are a waste of time, mostly.   When you start reading a dozen books on finance you realize that they all say the same stuff.   You are not going to live forever in the learning phase. Don't procrastinate by reading bull-shit or the same good knowledge in 10 books. What we ought to do is choose wisely.   Yes. A good book can change your life, given you do what it asks you to do.   All the books I have named up to now are worthy of reading. Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, Robert Greene — these guys are worthy of reading. These guys teach what others don't. Their books are unique and actually, come from relevant and successful people.   When Richard Branson writes a book about entrepreneurship, go read it. Every line in that book is said by one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time.   When a Chinese millionaire( he claims to be) Youtuber who releases a video titled “Why reading books keeps you broke” and a year later another one “My recommendation of books for grand success” you should be wise to tell him to jump from Victoria Falls.   These self-improvement gurus sell you delusions.   They say they have those little tricks that only they know that if you use, everything in your life will be perfect. Those little tricks. We are just “making of a to-do-list before sleeping” away from becoming the next Bill Gates.   There are no little tricks.   There is no success-mantra.   Self-improvement is a trap for 99% of the people. You can't do that unless you are very, very strong.   If you are looking for easy ways, you will only keep wasting your time forgetting that your time on this planet is limited, as alive humans that is.   Also, I feel that people who claim to read like a book a day or promote it are idiots. You retain nothing. When you do read a good book, you read slow, sometimes a whole paragraph, again and again, dwelling on it, trying to internalize its knowledge. You try to understand. You think. It takes time.   It's better to read a good book 10 times than 1000 stupid ones.   So be choosy. Read from the guys who actually know something, not some wannabe ‘influencers’.   Edit: Think And Grow Rich was written as a result of a project assigned to Napoleon Hill by Andrew Carnegie(the 2nd richest man in recent history). He was asked to study the most successful people on the planet and document which characteristics made them great. He did extensive work in studying hundreds of the most successful people of that time. The result was that little book.   Nowadays some people just study Instagram algorithms and think of themselves as a Dale Carnegie or Anthony Robbins. By Nupur Nishant, Quora Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/    
    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.