To Arm or to Disarm.

[DbPhoenix 42]

[Tams 20]

since the Newtown tragedy...

 

8 first responders have died of gun ambush.

[MightyMouse 12]

That was not simple enough for me…. Why not? Because

A heated argument ensues.

!

 

Both the gun nuts and gun grabbers tend to neglect that part. You just did.

When “a heated argument ensues”, “the bias in favor of life” goes poof. Whether ‘chronic’ or ‘episodic’ , the brain governs violent behavior. Research shows that ‘defects’ in the hippocampus can cause rage, "as if you poured gasoline on a fire-and it went whoosh!" states Benson E. Ginsburg, a geneticist.

 

You believe the issue is that people have violent tendencies? This smacks of "guns don't kill people, people do". That is fine if you think it, but it seems like some lobbyists got you to agree without putting you on the payroll.

 

I care about as much about why people have violent tendencies as I do about the reasons why people drink too much alcohol.

 

The goal with drinking laws is to keep drunks off the road. The goal with gun laws is to keep guns out of the hands of violent people.

 

People still drive drunk and kill people. No doubt. But, it is a lot less now that we have tougher drinking laws (please don't bother looking up the stats). We can achieve similar results with tougher gun laws. Only a drunken violent gun owner would not agree.

[SunTrader 10]

...... But, it is a lot less now that we have tougher drinking laws (please don't bother looking up the stats). We can achieve similar results with tougher gun laws .......

:thumbs up:

I don't have the stat to back it up except to say NYC is set to end 2012 with the lowest murder total for them in 50 years.

 

Tough gun laws and enforcement of them mainly the reason for this achievement.

[Ingot54 13]

Gun Buy-back "working"

 

LA residents swap guns for groceries - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

The Boxing Day buyback saw 1,016 weapons,

including 41 rifles, handed over.

 

Gun owners could take their arms to one of two

locations in return for a $100 grocery store gift

card for handguns, rifles and shotguns, or a $200

card for automatic weapons.

 

Los Angeles' police chief Charlie Beck said 8,000

weapons had been handed in since the program

started in 2009.

 

"We have literally cut gun violence by over a third,

a remarkable statistic when many, many parts of

our region and our country are not seeing decreases

in crime," he said.

 

Long lines of cars formed as Los Angeles gun

owners turned in weapons.

[MightyMouse 12]

Dick's Sporting Goods issued the following release, "We are extremely saddened by the unspeakable tragedy that occurred last week in Newtown, CT, and our hearts go out to the victims and their families, and to the entire community.

 

"Out of respect for the victims and their families, during this time of national mourning we have removed all guns from sale and from display in our store nearest to Newtown and suspended the sale of modern sporting rifles in all of our stores chainwide.

 

"The modern sporting rifle looks like an assault weapon, although it isn't one. It was removed from all Dick's Stores.

 

"We continue to extend our deepest sympathies to those affected by this terrible tragedy."

 

Translation: We noticed a huge drop in traffic at this store. Gun sales are only a small part of our business and we would be fucking dumb if we threw away the baby with the bath water. We did anticipate this and readily slashed prices on gun merchandise right after the incident. In doing so we really didn't have to take anything off the shelves since we sold most of it to other potential homicidal maniacs in the area. We hope you come in and buy our other merchandise in spite of the fact that we almost sold a gun to a monster (Adam Lanza was going to buy a gun at this location but did not want to go through the back ground check). When the dust clears we will once again indulge in the delicious and ever-so-flavorful profits of "Modern Sporting Rifles". But until then, we want you to still come in and buy our other stuff.

 

Taking out large numbers of people in public locations is apparently a sport (zdo this is flawed thinking). Maybe EA will create a new game called "Genocide" or "Elementary School " or "Mall Mauler".

 

Maybe in the future the EA website can have a menu of different psychological disorders that you can choose to develop. It wouldn't be right to hem everyone into one single stress disorder. What if there are homicidal maniacs that do not want to kill on foreign soil? Should everyone be forced to attack soldiers? What if it is only appealing to you to kill unarmed people? These guys should be able to choose who, how, and where they kill. Life is about choices.

 

I am a bitter bastard.

[zdo 20]

That's a fairly comprehensive trashing of everyone, ZDO.

 

And your position?

 

Are you on the side, and making "observations" ... or do you have another solution to the problem?

 

My own position - and I have not previously stated this - is that there is a missing link here.

...

 

The problem is not with guns.

...

 

 

Yep, guys, guilty as charged - “trashing everyone”

 

The points I so inadequately made in my reply to MM’s post were 1) that two guys scenario is just too simple, too much of single variable solution, to be of any real use. ie MM, I didn’t give you a straight answer to your scenario…. Mostly because there are two answers. One is the answer we all wish would work. The other is the one that would really be implemented circa the “heated arguments”

2) More importantly, the scenario is irretrievably complicated beyond being of practical value by the fact that in these mass murder/suicide cases, the “heated argument has already ensued” for the perpetrators long before the ‘meetings’ begin. An example: for Anders Breivik, the “heated argument had already ensued” for a decade…

 

Laws have different meanings for these ‘brain disordered’ souls than they do for normals. Anders Breivik is also a pretty typical sample of the persistence, the ‘by any means’, in obtaining weapons and ammo. It didn’t matter to him if the guns were legal or illegal – so long as the procurement process didn’t tip off his intentions to law enforcement. . (and btw, access to guns there was just about as restrictive as the big apple gun-grabbers want it to be here – and that didn’t prevent ‘nuthin’)

 

Murderers, and in this case mass murderer suicides, are statistically clustered in the mid teens to approx age 35. (24% of murders in the US are committed by 18 to 20 year olds, etc etc.) Delayed / disrupted development of THE PREFRONTAL CORTEX is involved in this clustering of course but that is only a small part of it. The whole brains are involved. Emotional/limbic/amygdala, etc ‘centers’ are always involved. Self prescribed pain ‘management’ is always involved. Plus - anthropologically, some of the stats Ingot posted about murder rates indicate the US population may even have more genetic markers for murderous disorders than do other regions. Doubtful, but still maybe a factor... nature + nurture, genetics + environment...

 

Yes, what Ingot labeled "national psyche", with what has been called a ‘wild west’ culture by some, a culture of hate and fear by others, a culture where life itself is losing value on the edges – the bias, my friends, is not exactly pro-life anymore… yes, that is involved, but it is not cause for mass murder suicides… and is an argument for arming as much as it is for disarming individuals.

 

Resources sent to identifying brain disorders, biochemical imbalances, the mentally disturbed would be much more appropriate and effective in getting at cause than sending the resources and energy to yet more bureaucracies for making the ‘tools’ unavailable to nutcases via making them unavailable to everyone... especially when those tools are already out ‘there’ in volume and can now be printed up from scratch.

 

Anatomical, structural, hormonal , and functional anomaly outliers are easier to ‘see’ than ever. If we as a culture really cared, (which we don’t imo, because we don’t even consider working with this kind of thing until a horrible tragedy evokes the fkn emotional hell out of us) – anyways if we really cared, we would learn to locally intervene as families, neighbors, and communities in the brain disorders. And yes it would involve keeping dangerous objects out of the hands of these brain disordered cases… and no! it would not involve knee jerk trying to keep dangerous objects out of the hands of everyone. The gun-owners I know are simply not that stupified and irresponsible...

 

Govt run wars on guns, alcohol, drugs, etc. never "might help" enough to alter the rates of the disturbances underlying personal misuse of the perpetrators/abusers ‘fixes’. Yes, govt systemic intervention might ‘prevent’ a small sample from ever occurring ( which I suspect is all the 'please do something for us mob' wants)... but it is also just as likely to trigger the manifestation of more incidents that would not have occurred sans gov’t solutions.

 

If it makes you feel better, which apparently it does for a whole bunch of you, then go ahead and “make it simple”...

just to be sure though, you can never say that no one told you that “make it simple” won’t work.

 

Trashed yet?

[DbPhoenix 42]

[zdo 20]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YleZvTSDC6s]Best of Christmas Story - You'll Shoot Your Eye Out.m4v - YouTube[/ame]

 

 

[MightyMouse 12]

Yep, guys, guilty as charged - “trashing everyone”

 

If it makes you feel better, which apparently it does for a whole bunch of you, then go ahead and “make it simple”...

just to be sure though, you can never say that no one told you that “make it simple” won’t work.

 

 

The complex case works as well as the simple case. It is best to look for solutions to problems by first simplifying them. The intuitive solution emerges when the problem is simplified.

 

Real data points to an increase in homicide rates when you increase the availability of guns. Homicide rates drop when you decrease the availability of guns. It really is that simple. Not the BS propaganda put out by pro-gun groups. Sure, if you add in large amounts of relatively cheap but addictive drugs, then you can have an increase in the homicide rate with a decrease in legally purchased guns.

 

in my opinion, what happens to someone's brain when they are "heated" is certainly interesting, but I do not feel that it is important to consider what happens to someone's brain when considering whether or not to increase or improve control of guns.

 

If we remove the availability of guns from a very large group of people and let them be or if we ease the availability of guns to a very large group of people and let them be, then which group will experience the higher homicide rate?

[DbPhoenix 42]

An unnerving number of people swerve in order to kill small animals when driving, according to the findings of a student at South Carolina’s Clemson University. As the AP reported, Nathan Weaver, 22, inadvertently witnessed the sadism in action when he placed rubber turtles on a busy road and observed as part of a project intended to help box turtles — a species in the decline — to safely cross the road. One in 50 cars purposefully aimed to kill the fake creature — which, Weaver noted, is a significant number given that a real turtle can take around 10 minutes to cross the street.

 

“This was a bit shocking,” said the student.

 

According to the AP, Weaver’s observations align with a study by Western Carolina University psychology professor Hal Herzog, who found that 34 people out of his class of 100 had intentionally run over a turtle or been in a car with someone who had at some point. Two-thirds of those who admitted this were male.

 

“They aren’t thinking, really. It is not something people think about. It just seems fun at the time,” Herzog said. “It is the dark side of human nature.”

 

Natasha Lennard

[SpideySense 10]

The complex case works as well as the simple case. It is best to look for solutions to problems by first simplifying them. The intuitive solution emerges when the problem is simplified.

 

Real data points to an increase in homicide rates when you increase the availability of guns. Homicide rates drop when you decrease the availability of guns. It really is that simple. Not the BS propaganda put out by pro-gun groups. Sure, if you add in large amounts of relatively cheap but addictive drugs, then you can have an increase in the homicide rate with a decrease in legally purchased guns.

 

in my opinion, what happens to someone's brain when they are "heated" is certainly interesting, but I do not feel that it is important to consider what happens to someone's brain when considering whether or not to increase or improve control of guns.

 

If we remove the availability of guns from a very large group of people and let them be or if we ease the availability of guns to a very large group of people and let them be, then which group will experience the higher homicide rate?

 

Yes.

 

Given the populations around the world it shouldn't be too hard to use multiple regression to establish whether there are statistically valid links between various explanatory variables and the response variable "murder rate." So there must be relatively unbiassed studies out there. What was the outcome?

[Tams 20]

From 1933 to 1974, it was illegal for U.S. citizens to own gold in the form of gold bullion. If you want to buy gold bullion, you have to apply for a special license. But you can own guns anytime anywhere.

[DbPhoenix 42]

While we are discussing and demanding what to do, may I respectfully ask that we stop and take a look at what I believe are the three extenuating factors that may answer the question of why we Americans have more violence than most anyone else:

 

1. POVERTY. If there's one thing that separates us from the rest of the developed world, it's this. 50 million of our people live in poverty. One in five Americans goes hungry at some point during the year. The majority of those who aren't poor are living from paycheck to paycheck. There's no doubt this creates more crime. Middle class jobs prevent crime and violence. (If you don't believe that, ask yourself this: If your neighbor has a job and is making $50,000/year, what are the chances he's going to break into your home, shoot you and take your TV? Nil.)

 

2. FEAR/RACISM. We're an awfully fearful country considering that, unlike most nations, we've never been invaded. (No, 1812 wasn't an invasion. We started it.) Why on earth would we need 300 million guns in our homes? I get why the Russians might be a little spooked (over 20 million of them died in World War II). But what's our excuse? Worried that the Indians from the casino may go on the warpath? Concerned that the Canadians seem to be amassing too many Tim Horton's donut shops on both sides of the border?

 

No. It's because too many white people are afraid of black people. Period. The vast majority of the guns in the U.S. are sold to white people who live in the suburbs or the country. When we fantasize about being mugged or home invaded, what's the image of the perpetrator in our heads? Is it the freckled-face kid from down the street -- or is it someone who is, if not black, at least poor?

 

I think it would be worth it to a) do our best to eradicate poverty and re-create the middle class we used to have, and b) stop promoting the image of the black man as the boogeyman out to hurt you. Calm down, white people, and put away your guns.

 

3. THE "ME" SOCIETY. I think it's the every-man-for-himself ethos of this country that has put us in this mess and I believe it's been our undoing. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! You're not my problem! This is mine!

 

Clearly, we are no longer our brother's and sister's keeper. You get sick and can't afford the operation? Not my problem. The bank has foreclosed on your home? Not my problem. Can't afford to go to college? Not my problem.

 

And yet, it all sooner or later becomes our problem, doesn't it? Take away too many safety nets and everyone starts to feel the impact. Do you want to live in that kind of society, one where you will then have a legitimate reason to be in fear? I don't.

 

I'm not saying it's perfect anywhere else, but I have noticed, in my travels, that other civilized countries see a national benefit to taking care of each other. Free medical care, free or low-cost college, mental health help. And I wonder -- why can't we do that? I think it's because in many other countries people see each other not as separate and alone but rather together, on the path of life, with each person existing as an integral part of the whole. And you help them when they're in need, not punish them because they've had some misfortune or bad break. I have to believe one of the reasons gun murders in other countries are so rare is because there's less of the lone wolf mentality amongst their citizens. Most are raised with a sense of connection, if not outright solidarity. And that makes it harder to kill one another.

 

Michael Moore

[SunTrader 10]

This would be great (actually it wouldn't) if it were true:

 

"Free medical care, free or low-cost college, mental health help"

 

The air we breath is free, nothing else in life is. In the USA or in the EUSS European Union of Socialist States.

[Ingot54 13]

 

I'm not saying it's perfect anywhere else, but I have noticed, in my travels, that other

civilized countries see a national benefit to taking care of each other. Free medical

care, free or low-cost college, mental health help. And I wonder -- why can't we do that?

 

I think it's because in many other countries people see each other not as separate and

alone but rather together, on the path of life, with each person existing as an integral

part of the whole. And you help them when they're in need, not punish them because

they've had some misfortune or bad break.

 

I have to believe one of the reasons gun murders in other countries are so rare is

because there's less of the lone wolf mentality amongst their citizens. Most are raised

with a sense of connection, if not outright solidarity. And that makes it harder to kill

one another.

 

Michael Moore

O Golden Rule ... wherefore art thou?

 

I think this bit of analysis nails it - nothing more to say.

 

Goodnight all.

[MightyMouse 12]

While we are discussing and demanding what to do, may I respectfully ask that we stop and take a look at what I believe are the three extenuating factors that may answer the question of why we Americans have more violence than most anyone else:

 

1. POVERTY. If there's one thing that separates us from the rest of the developed world, it's this. 50 million of our people live in poverty. One in five Americans goes hungry at some point during the year. The majority of those who aren't poor are living from paycheck to paycheck. There's no doubt this creates more crime. Middle class jobs prevent crime and violence. (If you don't believe that, ask yourself this: If your neighbor has a job and is making $50,000/year, what are the chances he's going to break into your home, shoot you and take your TV? Nil.)

 

America is fantastic! It is the only place on earth where you can wear expensive clothes, have cable tv,, a cell phone, an xbox, and eat out 7 days a week and be considered poor. Our poor people still make as much as 8 times the amount that the average Chinese worker does.

 

On the other hand, the poor areas have lots and lots of drugs. If you are rich or middle class and want to buy drugs, you, generally, have to go to a poor area to buy them. It is true that occasionally someone in a wealthy area sells drugs, but commonly they are distributed in poor areas. Drugs have the quality of making you do really stupid things to get more of them if you do not have the money. So, a poor person, gets desperate for drugs sooner than a wealthy person will. Drugs are also a commodity that if stolen won't get reported to law enforcement. Is it better to steal an item that will get reported to the police or one that won't get reported to police? Drugs simply increase incidence of violent crime. Firearms are the weapon of choice for violent crime. The US has more guns per capita than any other country.

 

2. FEAR/RACISM. We're an awfully fearful country considering that, unlike most nations, we've never been invaded. (No, 1812 wasn't an invasion. We started it.) Why on earth would we need 300 million guns in our homes? I get why the Russians might be a little spooked (over 20 million of them died in World War II). But what's our excuse? Worried that the Indians from the casino may go on the warpath? Concerned that the Canadians seem to be amassing too many Tim Horton's donut shops on both sides of the border?

 

No. It's because too many white people are afraid of black people. Period. The vast majority of the guns in the U.S. are sold to white people who live in the suburbs or the country. When we fantasize about being mugged or home invaded, what's the image of the perpetrator in our heads? Is it the freckled-face kid from down the street -- or is it someone who is, if not black, at least poor?

 

 

Racism exists. No doubt. It is a natural phenomenon. Theoretically, we would not exist if it were not for racism or prejudice, When our most recently genetically mutated ancestor emerged, it was very likely that he or she was shunned by the other non-mutants and he or she had to keep to her own kind and a new strand was able to get stronger. If he or she was completely accepted, then there is a good chance that we would still be swinging in trees. In spite of it being natural, I do not think that racism is as big a problem in the USA as it is in other countries.

 

Racism has become something that is used for political gain. We constantly get racism jammed down our throats because certain groups use it to get what they want. They, therefore, need it to exist. If the perception was that racism did not exist or wasn't so bad, then they would not get as much as they could.

 

It is very difficult for me to believe that racism is so prevalent in a country that just re-elected a black man for a second term. In addition to being black, he is poor. In my opinion it exists, but it is far less of an issue than we are sold. Again, we have a black president in office for a second term.

 

Until this moment, I have never seen the face of the perpetrator in my home invasion fantasy. At this moment it is a black man, but that is because you made me do it. His face naturally fades to a scruffy, dirty, shadowy white fact when I think about it, but that is just before I crack it with a bat. It is a fantasy you know.

 

I am certain that if we got rid of the illegal drug problem, the violent crime rate would diminish. If we had far better gun control, the homicide rate would decrease. This is not rocket science. The US states with the least gun ownership have the lowest rate of gun related death.

 

The countries who produce drugs have very high gun related deaths. The countries who consume the most drugs and have easy gun ownership policies have the highest gun death rates. The poor countries which do not produce drugs, have the lowest drug consumption and gun death rates. The gun and drug relationship is incredibly evident to anyone with a brain.

 

Unfortunately, in the US, making drugs legal and tightening gun control will not be seen as a solution. We will opt for the short term pacifying solution of putting an armed person in every school. That makes the parents happy. It makes the gun nuts happy. And it allows for the continuance of monopoly drug profits.

 

Drugs

Stoned Nation: International study of drug use places US in the lead. – Greg Laden's Blog

 

Guns

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk

[zdo 20]

Yes.

 

Given the populations around the world it shouldn't be too hard to use multiple regression to establish whether there are statistically valid links between various explanatory variables and the response variable "murder rate." So there must be relatively unbiassed studies out there. What was the outcome?

 

Here you go... pages of more well crafted lies, damn lies, and statistics...

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Globa_study_on_homicide_2011_web.pdf

( Ingot, I’ll see your statistics and raise you these )

 

Since everyone is lying with their dam stats...

let’s randomize the propaganda a little bit

50 Random Facts About Guns, Gun Control and Gun Violence

Articles: Murder by Numbers

[zdo 20]

FakeBook

(where can I buy some of that stock? :helloooo:)

 

Facebook bans Gandhi quote as part of revisionist history purge

[DbPhoenix 42]

[zdo 20]

To Arm or to Disarm... that is the question. Massmurdersuicides is why we is discusn it.

Be careful...

 

A fringe opinion… at least at the moment …

Feinstein's Gun Control Bill Will Trigger The Next American Revolution

[SunTrader 10]

...

 

A fringe opinion…

 

Indeed!

 

Certifiable.

 

The other fringe are those who do want all guns confiscated.

 

Most times, the middle wins out with reasonable limits, just like most things in life. So when things swing too far one direction it gets corrected.

 

"Everything in moderation"

[zdo 20]

While we are discussing and demanding what to do, may I respectfully ask that we stop and take a look at what I believe are the three extenuating factors that may answer the question of why we Americans have more violence than most anyone else:

 

1. POVERTY. ...

2. FEAR/RACISM. ...

3. THE "ME" SOCIETY.

 

As our bodies (and time itself) clear the emotional peptides about the massmurdersuicide, we get more and more discussion and ‘concerns’ showing up about ‘preventing’ murders in general…and theft, etc… and ‘understanding’ the underlying social issues involved… and how ‘vanishing’ the weapons would fix that…

 

Ie our collective wisdom is showing through now [snik].

I’d like to be more nice about it db, but… that post is ‘collectivist’ drivel.

….in my years relating to those who spout this kind of stuff – those who hate hate the most, hate the most … ironic ain’t it.

 

POVERTY in the US has a 60 inch flat screen, ebt cards, iPhone or at least a smartphone… currently, however unsustainable…

making money honestly means creating something other people value, not necessarily what you value. The more money I want, the more I have to think about what other people want, and find better, faster, cheaper ways of delivering it to them. The reason someone is poor - and, yes, I know all the excuses for poverty - is that the poor do not produce more than they consume. Or if they do, they don't save the surplus.

Doug Casey.

 

Two equally valid and stupid sentences:

Poverty doesn’t cause murders.

Murder doesn’t cause poverty.

 

RASCISM. I’m one of those with an armed and alarmed home. But guess what? The first home invasion imago I get is a white frkn psychopath – not a black dude. I think you are projecting.

 

ME Over 50% of my income is now transferred to others… and the gubmnt has made promises to the mob democracy in that “safety net” that CAN NEVER BE KEPT.*

What few dare admit, much less state publicly, is that the Constitutional limits on the financial Aristocracy and the Tyranny of the Majority have failed. This guarantees a future Constitutional crisis as each political class – the financial Aristocracy, the top 24% who pay most of the taxes, the dwindling middle class and the bottom 50% who depend on Federal transfers – will battle for control as the Status Quo collapses under the weight of its unsustainable promises.

CHSmith

 

I personally think ME could allocate most of those funds more wisely… even more compassionately… with less killing too.

I’d also bet you have a limit where you say “enough! This isn’t “fair” to ME anymore. What about ME and mine? ”

… and when you do get your ME back, db, guess what … it won’t make it any easier to (as the hypocrite Michael Moore says it) “kill one another.”

 

three extenuating factors ... maybe... but maybe not.

certainly no reasons to disarm the peeps

jmo

Edited December 28, 2012 by zdo

[Patuca 13]

more guns are needed in publics possesion. only way to end this crazy stuff. more people need to pack "heat" and not leave their arms at home where they do no one any good. the problem is not gun ownership. it is a lack of gun carriership.

 

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

 

if we give gov right to regulate guns they will end up regulating them right out of our hands and we will have no recourse against tyranny.

[MightyMouse 12]

more guns are needed in publics possesion. only way to end this crazy stuff. more people need to pack "heat" and not leave their arms at home where they do no one any good. the problem is not gun ownership. it is a lack of gun carriership.

 

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

 

if we give gov right to regulate guns they will end up regulating them right out of our hands and we will have no recourse against tyranny.

 

You need more drugs. The drugs you are taking are not enough.