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brownsfan019

Measuring Strength of a Move Once in a Trade

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perfect risk managment strategy,,,

 

Grey1

Actually 'staying' with a third is only perfect "risk management strategy" ::helloooo: for a small subset of systems, good "risk management strategy" for another set of systems, at B.E. for another subset of systems, and disastrous for a sizable subset of systems.

 

More would definitely see the ridiculousness of just throwing up a post like

“The perfect risk managment strategy is to just take three ticks off every entry”

than would see the ridiculousness of

“exit two thirds of my position and let the other third run, and run, and run....”

but they are equally ridiculous as general advice!

 

...not criticizing your posts and intentions in general - just beating the drum some more from my recent posts for TL posters to abstain from discussing exits in isolation from the system behind it... it may seem like it helps others but it doesn't... and it's ET like...

Edited by zdo

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I'll say this on runners - they've NEVER worked for me. I'm all-in or all-out. That's just what works for me.

 

+1. I can never rationalize the total Risk : Reward variance in scaling out positions vs. a full stop out... but thats just my personal preference.

 

All in all out forces me to hold trades and stay accountable to my proper exits.

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I'm with zdo. It depends:

- what you are trading

- what your entry strategy is

- what moves you are trying to capture

 

My personal approach is to test each exit separately. If you then find that the pf on a quick exit is 2+ with a 60% win and the pf on a trailing or trailing+tightening exit is 2+ with a 30-40% win you might choose to combine them to give a result that:

- has an averaged profit factor

- has a smoothed return (and thus all the resulting system stats).

 

Or you might not find that. But only testing will tell. Generally I think the heuristic that the market rewards you for doing what is hard is true ... but ones personal psychology might combine with hard to generate unprofitable in some cases which could also argue for a staged exit.

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Actually 'staying' with a third is only perfect "risk management strategy" ::helloooo: for a small subset of systems, good "risk management strategy" for another set of systems, at B.E. for another subset of systems, and disastrous for a sizable subset of systems.

 

More would definitely see the ridiculousness of just throwing up a post like

“The perfect risk managment strategy is to just take three ticks off every entry”

than would see the ridiculousness of

“exit two thirds of my position and let the other third run, and run, and run....”

but they are equally ridiculous as general advice!

 

...not criticizing your posts and intentions in general - just beating the drum some more from my recent posts for TL posters to abstain from discussing exits in isolation from the system behind it... it may seem like it helps others but it doesn't... and it's ET like...

 

you obviously are new to this game,,,very new it seems.. get yourself a Neural net and keep all your inputs constant and optimise your out put ( exit) .. once done that then go back and edit your post above

 

Grey1

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yes....sorry about the ridiculous advice....I was not specific enough.

While I may take two thirds off and run the last third, it still carries a stop as well. Its just that it does not have a take profit level.

If you view that there are generally three levels/ways to exit, a stop with a loss, a stop with a profit, and a take profit level. I may enter a trade - use a take profit for two thirds of my position, and let the last third run until it is stopped out, by a trailing stop.

For me this actually has noting to do with risk management - thats factored in with the actual reason for taking a trade, the position sizing and stop settings etc;

This is more a physc thing that works for me, and works for when I believe the trade can be a real trender. It allows me to combine both short term trading and longer term trend trades.

Given the thread is about measuring the strength of the move, I hope it would add to the discussion.... basically in that by letting the move occur and me being a part of it without me trying to measure it or judge it allows me to stay on some big moves. I just let the stop take me out, not a profit target.

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+1. I can never rationalize the total Risk : Reward variance in scaling out positions vs. a full stop out... but thats just my personal preference.

 

All in all out forces me to hold trades and stay accountable to my proper exits.

 

There are millions of combinations in scaling out of pos which affects the final P/L out come but one can simulate the out come using Monta carlo ( assuming randon walk as a strategy for simplicity ONLY) and ATR as a means of measuring P/L for both stop and traget to find a reasonable risk managment strategy ,, The best tool I suggest is to optimise using a Genetic adaptive NN

 

Grey1

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grey1, " assuming randon walk as a strategy" ???????????????

... hopefully the noobies, including the quant noobies, perked their ears up on that one after the scent went straight to their hindbrains...

 

My naivite' astounds me

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grey1, " assuming randon walk as a strategy" ???????????????

... hopefully the noobies, including the quant noobies, perked their ears up on that one after the scent went straight to their hindbrains...

 

My naivite' astounds me

 

If I was you I would use a more techncial approach to reply to my posts .. We never get any where if you come up with statement as above ,, they are neither constructive nor mathematical ..

 

Grey1

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Like I said, it's a mental game I play w/ myself regularly - the 'what if' game... What if I stayed in all day and just MOC'd. the trade. Then the next day - good thing I got out when I did!

 

Got a few ideas working here, but it's all rudimentary at this point. In the end, my gut says that to just keep doing what I am doing and be happy.

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone. While the exit holy grail probably doesn't exist, sometimes I need to get a thread like this going to reinforce what I've been doing is not half bad.

 

;)

 

bf, sounds like you may be done with this thread but I’ll make a few more comments about the ‘stay - no stay’ decisions that traders must make all the time. Most systems should not have any ‘stay’ type exits, and per system, exits should be target (fixed or % of margin or… etc.), PA, trailing (via 'trend'lines see below or other trailing stop methods) or some combo. The dissonance from missing the occasional great move is part of it – hence your “be happy”. Also, some systems should have a mix of ‘stay’ and ‘no stay’ exits.

 

The main point of all my posts in this thread is that the exit methodology must be matched as precisely as possible with the system itself. Most systems are designed to play for points and that is what they should do via ‘no stay’ exits and they are as you say “not half bad””. Joe Montana had no long ball and he played for points, but he turned sub 30 yard throws into super, etc.

 

A very few systems are ‘stay’ unconditionally period and the number of traders who are sufficiently ‘comfortable’ with systems that reward ‘stay’ unconditionally (with the ‘trend’ btw) is also small. These systems play for position, not points. With full ‘stay’ systems “ … the most important aspect of any trading decision is never the condition of the market, but rather that of your own position. The trick is to be constantly moving toward a position of strength, both within an individual trade and within the marketplace at large. Just like basketball, chess, or any other activity that requires focus, you know you’re in the ‘zone’ of trading when you start playing for position, not for points.” Jonathan Hoenig, CapitalistPig

 

Personally, I can make very good money 'scalping', a little bit of money swinging, sporadically good money breakout trading - but my really homerun years were when I had (just barely) enough stones to ‘stay’ and the seasonal / trend went parabolic. It has taken me nearly 20 years of work to really accept / assimilate / accomodate / routinely include this way of trading as my nature is more suited to ‘start clicking them in and then start clicking them out’. And, btw, this system is still not ‘trend’ trading proper – I still got a ways to go before I’m ready for real trend trading. :(:roll eyes:

 

re the lines... Am currently starting to build a short position in the indexes and as previously discussed will use the right most line (see attached) to determine my ‘stay’. It should be noted that the right most ‘live’ line is extremely mutable - I have changed its angle 3 times in as many days on this half day chart and it may be considerably steeper by Monday. I would not be surprised or disappointed if most of the position is stopped out at the green line and look forward to putting more on at a higher level. I would also not be surprised if this ‘collectively inevitable’ next leg / crash down doesn’t analogue typically (in ndx/usd terms at least), but I do want to be positioned for the possibility.

 

To review - the optimum exit methodology is determined by the system itself. Your bringing up the topic may indicate a need for just a tiny tweak to your exits rather than a need to make a big shift along the ‘stay – no stay’ continuum… hth Have a great weekend all.

StayLines090925AM.thumb.jpg.7ac2427ccaa0e13598f573efbdeca82a.jpg

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Tams - just looking for some ideas, maybe something will spark an idea on my end. I'm not averse to indicators, but prefer to have 'cleaner' charts. To each his own though.

 

 

actually I wanted to tell you all you need is to watch the volume...

but knowing your aversion to the value of volume analysis, I gave you the next best thing.

 

 

 

p.s. channels help too.

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actually I wanted to tell you all you need is to watch the volume...

but knowing your aversion to the value of volume analysis, I gave you the next best thing.

p.s. channels help too.

 

I appreciate the assistance. When I find something that shows how to use volume w/ a consistent result, I'll consider it. Till then, I'm going to have to accept it as is b/c I'm sure not going to be drawing crazy lines all over my charts or coloring different stacks of volume with crazy lines on those as well... ;)

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bf,

fwiw, I'm 'bloggin' - not specifically about "Measuring Strength of a Move Once in a Trade"

but about whether and how to 'stay' or 'no stay' once in a trade...

It doesn't use volume but unfortunately it does have lines - but only one active line at any given time.

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I appreciate the assistance. When I find something that shows how to use volume w/ a consistent result, I'll consider it. Till then, I'm going to have to accept it as is b/c I'm sure not going to be drawing crazy lines all over my charts or coloring different stacks of volume with crazy lines on those as well... ;)

 

 

there are more than one way to skin a cat... I won't suggest you to sweat it.

 

 

.

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BF surrendering to indicators ??? my, the World must be changing.

 

 

Here's a little "indicator" that might help:

 

set the look back to 2 bars,

if the price never closed beyond the 2 bars, there is really no reason to exit.

(of course you have to tune to a resolution that does not give you the noise,

or increase the "look back" so that you don't get taken out by a spike)

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f46/scalpers-hl-bracket-sound-6084.html'>http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f46/scalpers-hl-bracket-sound-6084.html

 

11041d1243739733-scalpers-hl-bracket-sound-scalper_hl_bracket.jpg

 

 

Hope the idea helps

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f46/scalpers-hl-bracket-sound-6084.html

Tam

 

Have you got an mt4 version of this Indicatore available

 

 

Barry

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I use a market internal display that gives read out of advance decline and Volume

of NYSE and NASDAQ also measures the amount of ticks and I can tell by tracking these numbers if market is getting stronger or weaker.

It was written in spreadsheet and it tracks live

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I use a market internal display that gives read out of advance decline and Volume

of NYSE and NASDAQ also measures the amount of ticks and I can tell by tracking these numbers if market is getting stronger or weaker.

It was written in spreadsheet and it tracks live

 

Care to share some examples of this?

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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