Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Trade Up

Can successful Traders have a conscience?

Can successful Traders have a conscience  

7 members have voted

  1. 1. Can successful Traders have a conscience

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      2
    • Not Sure
      1


Recommended Posts

This is a very interesting question, and not one which I have seen mentioned.

 

Can successful Traders have a conscience?

 

When a Trader is in working mode, I do not think that they can afford to have a real conscience, and also be successful. To have a conscience is to deal on emotion.

 

A good Trader will only see a commodity, not the investment itself. They are always dealing on trends / fundamentals, and have no feelings for or against the underlying investment.

 

E.g. they would have no problem dealing in Tobacco or Gambling stocks, to name but a few.

 

I believe that you could give a Trader a number of graphs, and not even price them, or say what they are, and they could make their mind up about a possible trade.

 

What do you think?

 

OBVIOUSLY THIS ONLY APPLIES TO LEGAL INVESTMENTS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont really think that a successful trader can have a conscience.

 

The best traders seem to deal on cold hard information, and not have "favourite" areas of investment.

 

Take "Black Monday" in the UK, when George Soros took on the Bank of England and won. He knew that the facts did not stack up with the reality and gambled on a change in policy by the UK Government. He was right, and he made a fortune.........

 

He dealt on cold hard information, with no guilt about what he was taking away from the Bank of England. A real Trader!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a bit of a loaded question, as to me the comments thus far seem to suggest that a professional trader suffers from a lack of ethics and I simply do not subscribe to that theory at all.

 

I also do not subscribe to the theory that successful traders are emotionless automatons when trading either. There is not a trader alive who is totally emotionless in the heat of trading. The difference is that he or she has learned how to both notice their emotions and control them. There was a study done of professional traders recently, by a prestigious university, that fully supports that belief, despite the common myth to the contrary which most often circulates amongst traders.

 

Also, supposedly everyone has a conscience and although I am certain that includes traders, there are undoubtedly some who choose on occasion not to be guided by what their conscience is telling them. That however is perhaps best left for a spirited discussion about ethics.

 

Happy Trading ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting but hard topic to answer. Traders by nature are very aggressive and thick-skinned. That does not necessarily mean we suffer from a lack of ethics or values.

 

Yes, I am sure you will find unethical traders such as the Enron traders who found it entertaining to shut off California's electrical power. (so they can profit from rising electricity prices)

 

I also saw an interview of a commodity floor trader in the CBOT who made a fortune on 9/11 trading gold. Is this unethical?

 

On the other hand take a look at Warren Buffett who just donated $30.7 billion to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. (respect to that man!)

 

I think it would be wrong to judge the entire trading population as unethical people. Just like any profession you are going to find ethical and unethical people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Soul.

 

There are undoubtedly some actions taken by certain parties that members of the general public might find in bad taste or even unconscionable, yet you will often find those self same people who were so quick to judge others taking similar actions on their own that they quickly excuse away as acceptable. There is just no accounting for the way some people treat other people. Their interpretation of the Golden Rule is that those who have the gold make the rules. That is indeed a shame, but a reality of Life nevertheless. Luckily, we don't have to become one of them in order to become and remain a professional trader.

 

Happy Trading ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if I have been a little misunderstood.

 

I am not trying to say that all traders have no ethics or values, just pointing out (like Soultrader said) that traders tend to be more thick skinned than most.

 

Its like the traders who sell airlines short after a crash - now I would not do that, but I know some traders who would. That opens another issue, if nobody acts on bad news then we risk a false market - after all the market is only a reflection of supply and demand.

 

Some people see gambling and tobacco stocks as unethical, but personally that would not stop me trading in these stocks.

 

I hope thats clears up any misunderstanding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its like the traders who sell airlines short after a crash - now I would not do that, but I know some traders who would.

 

I hope this does not make me unethical but I would disagree with that statement. We have become traders to profit from market inefficiency's. I say this because as a trader, I am looking for opportunities in the financial markets. If a trader can not short a stock because one feels unethical, I find it hard to make any money in the market.

 

Your profit is another man's loss. Is that considered unethical? I do not think it is fair to say traders are unethical since they would short an airline stock that just had an accident. (or other examples) We are trading supply and demand or numbers. When I trade stocks or futures, 80% of the time I do not watch the news. I just trade price action. I will find out any siginificant news on the market after the close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trading in general is amoral (setting aside hostile takeovers, pillaging companies, stock scams and the rest). You buy from people that want to sell, and you sell to those that want to buy. Your actions have no impact on the company.

 

If you want to hold stocks for longer terms and don't want to get all icky by associating with tobacco, for example, then remember that shares tend to be a net loss to companies as they pay out dividends. The money raised from a public offering is a one-time affair, and after that the shares just drain money. By holding shares, you are taking money away from a company you don't like. Maybe that eases your conscience. (Of course no one cares who holds these shares and you know someone will, so we come back around to trading being amoral :) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a simple addition: if you're so magically, supernaturally good as a trader that you know the stock will drop, then by shorting, you are depriving someone from their potential profits. So if you think you're God, you shouldn't trade.

 

Speaking personally, if you think you're God, I would like you to trade. To ease your conscience, why not tell me what you're trading so I can take the other side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some interesting comments, and maybe not the poll vote I had expected.

 

There appears to be some difference of opinion as to what may or may not be ethical, but no matter what we think, the market will always react to different situations and the "true" price will always show through.

 

I think a good trader will just see a situation as that, and not think of the underlying reasons / factors. Follow the Trend has been my main rule since I began trading (with the odd exception of trying to catch a fallng knife), whatever that trend may be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only in the right context. Virtually all business endeavors are based on the notion of providing value, and the profits are the exchange for that value delivered.

 

Gambling and trading do not create or provide value to the one putting in the money. It's a win-lose situation and winner's profits have to come from somebody's pocket. Even the Casinos express their profits in gambler's losses and trading is very analogous.

 

If you're okay with the competitive nature and the fact that it is clear to the prospective loser that he is risking his money on a wager, then no guilt is due.

 

However, if one of your core beliefs is that you wish to make the world a better place by provide value to others, then trading may present a subconscious challenge, as your subconscious knows the win-lose scenario exists here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Colorado

 

I think you just hit the nail in the head. I cound't agree more with your coments.

 

It's unbelievable but there's still some traders/investors outhere who believes that shorting a stock is totally un-american. Sometimes I watch comedy central, you know in order to entretain my self, and this guy....whats his name/ oh ok..Jim Kramer always is buy, bullish, etc. It's unelievable how many people calls that program for advice...oh boy..This is just my opinion please apologize if I offended anyone.

 

Regards

 

Raul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am so sorry

 

It's not comedy central...it's CNBC.

 

for some reason I don't understand, I mix CNBC, Comedy Central and Cartoon Network. Maybe there's some sort of subliminal message implanted in my brain, well I don't know. They're not similar rigth??

 

My apologies

 

Regards

 

Raul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One can inject ones views, beliefs and concerns into trading as much or as little as one wants. eg, only long on your countries stocks, only short on opposing countries stocks and futures, no purchases of suspect stocks etc etc.

 

No problem; only two issues. 1. Don't actively trade the beliefs just use them as a filter to remove trading opportunities. 2. Recognize that the beliefs limit some opportunities which may occasionally cause frustration followed by the satisfaction that you're sticking to your beliefs (but the opportunities are nearly infinite anyway).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am so sorry

 

It's not comedy central...it's CNBC.

 

for some reason I don't understand, I mix CNBC, Comedy Central and Cartoon Network. Maybe there's some sort of subliminal message implanted in my brain, well I don't know. They're not similar rigth??

 

My apologies

 

Regards

 

Raul

 

lol.... we might as well have Dave Chapelle come on CNBC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CNBC is Comedy Central LOL! Freudian slip it may be but many ways similarities are uncanny. These "comedians" make us laugh with their "recommedations" one after another and they are out on the line trying to forecast and predict. Worst, the hot fund managers make their money on fees, not from their stock pick wizardry. I prefer to see floor traders whose livelihood depends on their trading. Charts tell me more quickly and honestly than some talking head tooting their own horns and their picks.

 

I used to avidly watched their shows that result in losses before I turned it off and turned a profit. My opinions of their performance was in some ways linked to my past performance: recommendations don't work without your own homework involved.

 

Sorry, back to the question at hand, the rules were set for most. Some started trade without knowing the rules but this is what free enterprise is: as long as you don't break the rules, the world is yours if you can outsmart your competitor to get customers to your door. Some chose to be ignorant and trade until ruin while others go slowly and learn all the rules then trade to become profitable. Most of us chose the ignorant way (I included) but everyone is accountable for their actions to participate or not and their way in participating. So conscience shouldn't exist because the rule applies to everyone and ignorance is no excuse (as cops like to remind infractors of this). I paid my dues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a good and successful trader and i don't buy the crap you are saying. I have got a good conscience and i trade well. They have nothing to do with each other. Your conscience don't in any way affect your trade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Date : 23rd October 2020.Dollar Dips as Equities escalate.EURUSD, H1 The Dollar fell back concomitantly with rallying European stock markets and US index futures, which was likely a repositioning dynamic after declining over the last two weeks.EURUSD rebounded quite strongly, rising back above 1.1850 from a three-day low at 1.1787. Preliminary October PMI data in the services and composite readings out of the Eurozone and UK undershot the median forecast of economists, but didn’t impact the Euro or Sterling. Technically, the H1 chart has moved over the 50-hour moving average (1.1835) to test R1 at 1.1852; above here is Wednesday’s high and R2 at 1.1885. Today’s pivot point is next support at 1.1830, below the 50-hour moving average. The MACD histogram has broken the zero line and the signal is starting to rise, although still south of the zero line, RSI is positive and trades at 64.50, Stochastics are moving into the OB zone.Cable settled at near net unchanged levels around 1.3090-95 after dropping back from a high at 1.3124. The UK currency remains comfortably up on week-ago and month-ago levels against the Dollar and Euro, and others, with market participants anticipating a limited trade deal between the EU and UK. The two sides are amid intensive face-to-face discussions. The UK and Japan today signed the trade deal that was agreed in principle a month ago.USDJPY is modestly softer after upside forays over the last day stalled at 104.93-95. At levels around 104.70, the pair remains down by 1% on the high seen on Wednesday. AUDUSD rallied to an eight-day high at 0.7158, floated by higher stock markets in Europe and an above-forecast composite PMI reading out of Australia. Global asset markets are likely to remain skittish, notwithstanding the rally today, with investors pondering the uncertainties presented by the surge in Covid cases in Europe and elsewhere, including now in many US states and in Canada, and which are leading to ever more restrictive countermeasures. The ongoing delay in new US fiscal stimulus and the event risk posed by the upcoming US elections are also in the mix. Regarding the elections, polls point to a Biden presidency, but it is less clear if his Democratic party can take control of the Senate. If not, then Congress will remain split at least until the mid-term elections in two years, which will limit the scope for policy changes and crimp Democrat ambitions for expansive fiscal policy.US data later is topped by flash PMI data, Manufacturing numbers are expected to show a slight rise to 53.5 from 53.2 last time, whilst the more important and significant Services numbers are expected to increase by a single tick from 54.6 to 54.7. The data is due at 13:45 GMT.Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.Click HERE to access the full HotForex Economic calendar.Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!Click HERE to READ more Market news. Stuart Cowell Head Market Analyst HotForex Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Good examples, near the top, for those who are time and attn. challenged https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/news-analysis/how-the-elite-use-attila-and-the-witch-doctor-to-keep-power/ Grasp alternatives https://tomluongo.me/2020/10/20/about-two-years-anarchy-capitalism/  
    • Date : 22nd October 2020.Volatility and US elections.US Elections had been and always expected to be an event historically extremely volatile globally. Elections similar to other political or banking sector events are notably treated by market participants with anticipation and speculation. As discussed in our HF Markets Q4 Outlook, markets look to have already pricing in the possibility of Biden’s victory even though they overall maintain an increasing cautious optimism, holding US Dollar basket to 2018 low territory.Election-year fund flows, 1993-2020Historically, it has been noticed that during election years, market participants due to the heightened uncertainty, shift their investments into Money market funds instead from the safety of stock and bond funds, AS THEY waiting out. The 2020 is not any different but it’s been a unique one as we have seen an extreme money flow into currency assets in comparison with past election years, due the sluggish US and worldwide economic activity as the Covid-19 crisis resumes, the truce with China again which is under scrutiny, the lockdowns in several areas, the lack of additional fiscal stimulus from central bankers, Brexit frictions and the fear of double dip recession in Europe.Year-to-date fund flows, through June 30Source: BlackRock, with data from Morningstar as of June 30, 2020. Money market funds, stock funds and bond funds are represented by their respective US fund categories as defined by Morningstar.That said, cash balance into money funds spike to $980 in 2020 as of June 30, given the large risk premia. However as soon as uncertainty recedes we might see equity market’s volatility and volume to spike again since they consider to be attractive and more stable assets in period which there are historically low interest rates. If we emphasize on the medium term thought it is expected that if current conditions sustained, market volatility will extend beyond Election days with any potential outcome, i.e. a Biden win and Democrat majority in Congress, a Biden win but split Congress, or a Trump victory with split Congress.Meanwhile, a very chart from Wells Fargo Investment Institute, shows the USA500 implied Volatility index along with USA500 index performance prior and post the Election Day based on the election since 1988 with 2008 recession year excluded. This chart interestingly suggest that typically the USA500 tends to eased/consolidate a bit a month prior elections despite a extremely high volatility, while USA500 price continue their upwards move after the election day even though volatility declines significantly.WELLS FARGO INVESTMENT INSTITUTEAlways trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HotForex Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HotForex Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.  
    • Date : 21st October 2020.USD Down, GBP & Crypto’s Higher, CAD data.The Dollar underperformed while the Pound outperformed and the Yen, diverging from its usual close correlation with the Dollar, was measuring as the second strongest of the main currencies. Global stock markets have been skittish, with European indices dropping and US equity index futures giving back gains in returning to near net unchanged levels.Sterling has rallied quite strongly, showing a 1.0%+ gain on the Dollar at prevailing levels, as it rallied to test 1.3100. EURGBP is back under 0.9100 and down over 0.5% and testing 0.9050. The market reacted to remarks from EU trade negotiator, Barnier, that talks with the UK could continue “day and night.” There was also news that US Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer said that a trade agreement with the UK would come “reasonably soon.” The currency market evidently remains bullish on the EU and UK reaching an agreement, although the game of chicken between the two sides is continuing. Boris Johnson’s position is that the EU must fundamentally change its stance, while France’s European affairs minister Clément Beaune asserted yesterday that there would be “no new approach.” USDJPY tumbled under 105.00 en-route to printing a one-month low at 104.55. EURUSD lifted to a one-month high at 1.1868.USDCAD posted a new low for a fourth consecutive day in pegging a six-week low at 1.3080 before recouping back above 1.3100 amid a near 2% drop in oil prices. USOil fell from the $41.88 highs seen on Tuesday to a low of $40.86 in London morning trade. The API reported a 600k bbl weekly inventory build after the close yesterday, versus expectations for a 2.0 mln bbl draw, which weighed on prices some. Inventories at the Cushing, OK storage hub were up by 1.2 mln bbls. Concerns over Covid related demand destruction, along with increased crude production from Libya, should keep a cap on prices for now. The EIA weekly inventory report is due at 14:30 GMT.Canada’s CPI accelerated and retail sales grew, but both measures were on the tame side. CPI rose 0.5% y/y in September after the 0.1% gain in August. But CPI dipped -0.1% on an m/m basis (nsa) after the -0.1% slip in August and flat (0.0%) reading in July. CPI last rose on an m/m basis in June, rising 0.8%. The average of the three core CPI measures was 1.7% y/y, matching the 1.7% average seen in August. The CPI report remains consistent with ample slack in the economy, with a long way to go before activity returns to pre-pandemic levels across all industries. Meanwhile, retail sales rose 0.4% in August (m/m, sa) after a 1.0% gain in July (revised from 0.6%). Statistics Canada’s preliminary estimate is for little change in September retail sales. Sales have returned to more typical growth rates following the initial pop that followed the reopening of the economy — sales surged 21.2% in May after plunging -24.8% in April and falling -10.0% in March. Retail sales jumped 22.5% in June, an all time high growth rate. The ex-autos sales aggregate gained 0.5% in August. Both measures undershot expectations for stronger gains. Tame annual CPI growth along with the deceleration in retail sales is consistent with steady, accommodative policy from the BoC for an extended period.Elsewhere, BTCUSD moved to 2020 highs after Paypal confirmed it will allow cryptocurrency buying, selling and shopping on its network.¹ The press release stated it “signaled its plans to significantly increase cryptocurrency’s utility by making it available as a funding source for purchases at its 26 million merchants worldwide. The company is introducing the ability to buy, hold and sell select cryptocurrencies, initially featuring Bitcoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash and Litecoin, directly within the PayPal digital wallet. The service will be available to PayPal account holders in the U.S. in the coming weeks.”Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.Click HERE to access the full HotForex Economic calendar.Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!Click HERE to READ more Market news. Stuart Cowell Head Market Analyst HotForex Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • re racISM Seek the truth. Confront the lies.   Any white people who are racist are racist out of fear ... any 'supremacy' beliefs are compensatory.  Same with blacks... Seek the truth. Confront the lies.   Contrary to what you've been taught in school and now in culture, white people did not invent slavery.  Nor have they applied the most consistently horrific practices of slave owners, historically or currently.   Contrary to what you've been taught in school and now in culture, in fact, white people have done more to eradicate slavery / humans as property from the face of the earth than any other race - ever.   Seek the truth.  Confront the lies.  If you're white, don’t allow yourself to be guilted.   That just compounds the issues and divisions.   You are not individually or collectively responsible for the exploitation of minorities by a small percentage of psychopaths who happen to also be the same ‘race’ as you are ...  just because black people’s ‘self esteem’  generally needs to rise - especially those ‘trapped’ on the concrete plantations - is no reason your’s needs to fall ... don’t play into ivory tower false dialectic psyops designed to enslave EVERYBODY!   “A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”  Frederick Douglass, 1867  civil rights leader in response to post-Civil War segregation laws... my god was that boy and this boy unwoke or what 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.