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brownsfan019

How Much Would You Pay to Learn from a Veteran Trader?

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Forum protocol. Go to your profile, click on the about me tab. Answer the first question truthfully. Are you saying you're not aware of this protocol for identifying yourself as a vendor?

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Forum protocol. Go to your profile, click on the about me tab. Answer the first question truthfully. Are you saying you're not aware of this protocol for identifying yourself as a vendor?

 

I still don't know whom you're talking to but I will say this if you're talking to me when I join there was NO vendor identification. Secondly, I was specifically told that management will place a big C under the names of any vendor that's here looking for clients. You can contact forum management to verify what I was told by forum management about them updating someone to the status of vendor if they felt that person was here to look for clients.

 

With that said, if forum management has changed their policy in that they are not identifying vendors an want vendors to identify themselves via updating their own forum profile on their own regardless if TL is not a source of clients for the vendor...

 

I was not aware of that policy but am now aware of it via your suggestion to click on the About tab that I haven't visited in a few years. Therefore, I will now visit my own profile (its been a few years) and look for my about tab to see if I can update my own status as you politely suggested.

 

Edit - My status is now updated and I can now see that the info in our profiles have changed since I've joined TL (in the past...there was no vendor tab and now there is). Heck, they even have a Indicator tab. Where's the Price Action tab ? :doh: :rofl:

Edited by wrbtrader

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Are you suggesting anyone endorses you or any investment advice, trading advice or recommendations you've made or might make in the future? Or the existence of an endorsement of your past performance?

 

I recommend you read my earlier past public messages with forum management about vendors considering you do not have access to the private messages between them and I. At least at the very minimum...I highly recommend you contact them directly to voice your opinion if you feel something is wrong about my criticism. I assure you they are very comfortable with my status and purpose here.

 

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I had an interesting discussion today with a trading friend/colleague and the question posed to me was - how much money would it take for you to teach what you know?

 

I wasn't quite sure how to respond. In my mind, the hours and thousands of dollars spent is priceless. His reply to me was - but for the right price, wouldn't anyone consider an offer?

 

:hmmmm:

 

I asked why he was asking and he was approached by someone willing to pay what I would consider an offer with entertaining if he would mentor him...

 

I guess it's the age old question, right? Would you sell your trading 'secrets' for the right price? If so, what's the right price? And why?

 

I told him that to gauge the seriousness of the offer, that the offer would need to be substantial to begin with - money up-front and some sort of % of profits or something.

 

After thinking about it, it's a great way to annuitize your business if your pupil(s) make money. There's my broker side coming out - the important of annuitizing your income stream... those were the days. ;)

 

Funny thread. The discussion lived and died before I arrived on the scene but now that it's been revived I do see that the OP was confused.

 

The title of the thread asks the uninteresting question, "how much would you pay to learn from a 'veteran' trader?" while the original post asks "how much money would it take for you to teach what you know?" Those questions are not equivalent but are diametrically opposed. Notwithstanding his confusion, he implies he has something to teach and enjoys thinking he can charge a bundle for it.

 

The truth is, if the trader is really a "veteran" who is an expert, he is simply unaffordable and he is accessible only because of the relationship between the parties and not because of a fee. The people who dream of making substantial sums selling their services to others are not worth learning from because they are marginal players at best and washouts at worst. I realize this leaves many people who want to learn between a rock and a hard place but that's just the facts of life.

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Are you suggesting anyone endorses you or any investment advice, trading advice or recommendations you've made or might make in the future? Or the existence of an endorsement of your past performance?

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about nor how you came to such a conclusion from me asking you to "read" past conversation between forum management, myself and others about vendors after my prior reply to someone else about my concerns about their student trading the first time on their own with real-money. :doh:

 

(I do notice you make no commentary to the other person that has no vendor status and that openly said they have clients. You also seem to have not been aware that forum management already knew about my status as a vendor via public and private conversations with forum management about such here at TL)

 

Regardless, the fact remains that forum management had implied they (themselves) would put the big C underneath the names of any one known to have been "vending" here at TL via public messages or private messages here at TL and that they would rely on members to notify them about whom are vending here at TL. In addition, they made an announcement about such in one particular thread about vendors even though I knew they were going to do such via private message conversations between forum management and myself.

 

In contrast, I was not aware that forum management had created a "vendor self-announcement" tab that was embedded inside the "About" tab of all members with the default set at NO until you referred to my constructive criticism about another members service as a blatant breach of protocol. :rofl: Yet, you didn't know anyone not aware of such a tab (except possibly new members) will not be aware that forum management set their status to NO as a question about vendor. If there was such an announcement about a new tab...I didn't know about it and I'm sure others still don't know about it especially those that rarely visit TL.

 

Anyways, if you're still not sure what I'm talking about...I'll repeat...please read my past post here at TL with forum management about vendors and the suggestions made by TL members (including myself) about the problems then...

 

Suggestions that seem to be working by the way. Thus, the changes have been positive so far because a lot of the crap that use to happen have now been minimized :cool:

Edited by wrbtrader

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WRB

 

This person (onesmith) obviously has some significant emotional issues he needs to work through...unfortunately he insists on doing that HERE instead of obtaining help from a qualifed mental health professional.

 

Congrats on your seemingly inexhaustible patience and self control...(I would have told the annoying little putz to stuff it by now)....

 

As to the question I think Gosu has it right...and for the record I don't think a skilled professional can afford to teach at this point in time....in case others haven't noticed this is a very difficult economy and trading is one of the few jobs where a skilled talented person can generate income quickly...no matter what a teacher charges, a good trader can do better on his own...I certainly can...

 

Good luck in the markets WRB

and thanks onesmith for your comedic impersonation of a hysterical little twit....

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I asked two questions with very specific constraints. You might try rereading them.

 

I recommend you read my earlier past public messages with forum management about vendors considering you do not have access to the private messages between them and I. At least at the very minimum...I highly recommend you contact them directly to voice your opinion if you feel something is wrong about my criticism. I assure you they are very comfortable with my status and purpose here.

 

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I asked two questions with very specific constraints. You might try rereading them.

 

Your questions are a reply to me mentioning forum management big C policy in which my reply was a reply to your first reply to me that I was blatantly in breach of protocol after I posted a criticism of someone's service that allowed a student to trade with real-money without any real-time support.

 

I still can not connect the dots between my criticism of someone and your accusation that I was blatantly doing something that you refer to as a breach of protocol. :crap:

 

If you have any further questions about their big C protocol or whatever...please send forum management a message about my posts and yours and maybe they will answer your questions because I really do not know what you want to know. Thus, if you want to talk about thnickster student...I'm ok with that. If you want to get back on topic of this thread...I'm ok with that too. Anything else outside of that within the constraints of this thread topic...don't take this personally, I'm just not interested in listening to you.

 

With that said, if you're asking what is my affiliation with current forum management. There is none. If you want to know what was my affiliation with the prior forum management...none of your business.

 

(I'm now curious about your affiliation with thnickster considering you made a choice to reply to me with the blatant breach of protocol commentary after I directed a constructive criticism to him. I just made sarcasm.) :rofl:

 

I will now stay on topic and if I can't find the discipline to stay on topic...I will move on to another thread and not clutter up this one any further.

Edited by wrbtrader

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...

 

The title of the thread asks the uninteresting question, "how much would you pay to learn from a 'veteran' trader?" while the original post asks "how much money would it take for you to teach what you know?" Those questions are not equivalent but are diametrically opposed. Notwithstanding his confusion, he implies he has something to teach and enjoys thinking he can charge a bundle for it.

 

The truth is, if the trader is really a "veteran" who is an expert, he is simply unaffordable and he is accessible only because of the relationship between the parties and not because of a fee. The people who dream of making substantial sums selling their services to others are not worth learning from because they are marginal players at best and washouts at worst. I realize this leaves many people who want to learn between a rock and a hard place but that's just the facts of life.

 

 

I agree with you here. Though, even if a "relationship" exists between an experienced trader and an aspiring trader, it is possible that the experienced trader would expect a certain payment, if the aspiring trader is not a VERY CLOSE relative or friend. This is because the experienced trader himself might have paid a lot to gain that experience... in losses until becoming profitable, endless hours researching and in front of the screen, in emotional pain by failing a thousand times, etc. Hence, he or she might have the view that this experience can not be given away for no fee, just because someone else is looking for a shortcut. But views might differ here based on personality and stage of development of a person/trader...

 

The latter refers to the fact, that the view of the same person can be different, if he or she is a profitable trader for only one or two years and, hence, still remembers his or her painful experience very well, or, if the same person is profitable for 15 years, and hence, the painful experience is farther away.

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How can you really check if the person is profitable or not? Not many are willing to show their accounts. I would pay a percentage of my winnings if I knew that the mentor who would teach a) can trade himself; b) is consistently profitable and can prove it; c) has similar personality to mine and d) is willing to teach and wants me succeed...

 

Now the question is: where do I find him?:)

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People who make money (a lot of it) are usually people with a high net worth (as they say in the banking industry), and usually they are people who guard their privacy....so those of you living under the delusion that a teacher who has money and makes money is going to show YOU his financial records, need to wake up...(or not)..

 

Secondly, the idea that you (the student) will pay a teacher (who already has money) some small percentage of your "earnings" is comedy at its finest.....

 

I taught (past tense) two groups of people...in each group some folks did well, and some did not, and I wish all of them the best of luck, and if any of them were to contact me, they would receive my best advice and help at no charge because I liked each of them as human beings....I couldn't care less about receiving some percentage of their earnings, that should go to their families....who generally speaking have had to put up with them losing money most of the time....

 

Try to remember this...a skilled professional earns much more per day than any of you make or will make in a week, or perhaps (I should say probably) even in a month...try to bring some semblance of realism into your view of the world...it will help in your trading (those of you with actual accounts)....

Edited by steve46

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Which is exactly why the sort of people you describe are not likely to be financially motivated Steve. Those that still are will not waste there precious time teaching. In fact those that are (still financially motivated) have pretty much by definition 'not arrived yet'.

 

Of course there are other motivations that have a by product of accumulating wealth.

 

These type of educators will have all sorts of excuses; alternate revenue streams, I get something out of it, It shows commitment from the pupils etc. but the long and the short of it is they have found a nice little earner. Now these guys might even be OK traders but for sure they are not the 'high net worth' individuals you describe.

 

The flip side of this is that not all 'successful' traders are high net worth individuals. I know a couple of guys that are happy to consistently take a handful of points here and there and still only trade 3 contracts. One guy I know trades singles and has lived off that for close to 20 years, he empties his account every month (apart from margin which used to be 10k last I asked him). Certainly not a high net worth individual, but most would agree a veteran.

 

Fortunately there are people that realise that 'money isn't everything' (to coin the old cliché), ironically this is an easier perspective to get when you have an abundance of it. Anyway, the reason I say fortunately is that these individuals are likely to be motivated by other qualities than a trainees ability to pay.

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* * *

 

One guy I know trades singles and has lived off that for close to 20 years, he empties his account every month (apart from margin which used to be 10k last I asked him). Certainly not a high net worth individual, but most would agree a veteran.

 

* * *

 

Calling this trader of 20 years a "veteran" depends on what you mean by "veteran." I would describe him as someone who has traded for 1 year and just repeated that first year 19 times. Maybe you should suggest to him that he take a walk on the wild side and add a contract for 2 contracts. Then again, why bother.

Edited by gosu

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You can't learn how to trade the markets if you don't already know how to trade.

 

If you know how to trade then trading the markets becomes doable and there is no need to pay someone to learn how to trade. I agree with a lot of the reasons mentioned by Steve above about why you wouldn't be able to find someone worth learning from if you were willing to pay.

 

Trading is knowing how to buy low or sell high. It is understanding when, if, or where, there is going to be demand or when, if, or where there is going to be supply. Some people develop a knack for this beginning when they are toddlers, way before they ever know what a financial or commodities market is; others simply do not get it and are continuously fooled into paying to much or selling too low.

 

If you know how to do this before you learn about markets, then transferring your mindset to the markets is not that hard. If you need to learn to trade and then learn to trade the markets at the same time, you are probably doomed.

 

When you trade you are buying from sellers and selling to buyers in the same way that any other buyer or seller of goods and services operates. In the same way, you need to perceive that there will be buyers at higher prices if you wish to buy now or sellers at lower prices if you wish to sell now; otherwise, there is no point to buying or selling.

 

If you are going to buy because the market is at "support", or because of a fib retracement or its proximity to a value node, there will be many times that a guy like me will pay for your lunch, but on balance, you will pay for my vacations, redo my bathroom, etc, and end up throwing up your lunch. I will trade you a few lunches or dinners for a vacation anytime.

 

If you know how to trade, then shadowing someone who is taking money from the markets, would not be a bad idea. It might be a short cut to stripping away a lot of the myths about trading.

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Calling this trader of 20 years a "veteran" depends on what you mean by "veteran." I would describe him as someone who has traded for 1 year and just repeated that first year 19 times. Maybe you should suggest to him that he take a walk on the wild side and add a contract for 2 contracts. Then again, why bother.

 

Actually more importantly is to ask yourself is it someone who you would want to learn with. Veteran is not a term I particularly like (with its war connotations) however it's meaning is well defined. I would say that 20 years earning a living from trading constitutes 'long service in an occupation'. Just to re-iterate he earns his living like this and has done for 20 years, it is not a hobby. (though arguably one can be a hobbyist and a veteran concurrently).

 

it is hard to come up with a persuasive reason to get someone to increase size who has achieved everything they want with their tradng. He has nothing to prove and has an abundance of money. (Abundance & high net worth are not the same thing as I hope I made clear btw).

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Actually more importantly is to ask yourself is it someone who you would want to learn with. Veteran is not a term I particularly like (with its war connotations) however it's meaning is well defined. I would say that 20 years earning a living from trading constitutes 'long service in an occupation'. Just to re-iterate he earns his living like this and has done for 20 years, it is not a hobby. (though arguably one can be a hobbyist and a veteran concurrently).

 

it is hard to come up with a persuasive reason to get someone to increase size who has achieved everything they want with their tradng. He has nothing to prove and has an abundance of money. (Abundance & high net worth are not the same thing as I hope I made clear btw).

 

 

Great post, BlowFish, and one every newbie should think about!

 

This shows that he knows how to extract money from the markets on a consistent basis. This is the one thing where most people fail who get into this business.

 

And it shows that it's important to know yourself and do what fits your personality. Obviously, he is comfortable the way he trades, including his money management philosophy, being probably overcapitalized and under-leveraged (the latter is just an assumption, of course, as I do not know his spending regime).

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One of the many great anecdotes from 'Reminiscences of a Stock Operator' is the trader that asks advice of a 'veteran' trader.

 

It goes something like this 'I am long of XYZ and it's is bothering me. There is this and that happening and frankly I am loosing sleep over it'. The sage advice offered is 'reduce your position to sleeping point'.

 

The importance of position sizing and risk should not be underestimated. Neither should it's effect on trader performance.

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Actually more importantly is to ask yourself is it someone who you would want to learn with. Veteran is not a term I particularly like (with its war connotations) however it's meaning is well defined. I would say that 20 years earning a living from trading constitutes 'long service in an occupation'. Just to re-iterate he earns his living like this and has done for 20 years, it is not a hobby. (though arguably one can be a hobbyist and a veteran concurrently).

 

it is hard to come up with a persuasive reason to get someone to increase size who has achieved everything they want with their tradng. He has nothing to prove and has an abundance of money. (Abundance & high net worth are not the same thing as I hope I made clear btw).

 

Blowfish,

 

I assume that the one contract trader is trading es. Can a trader "earn a living" trading es with one contract? Maybe. it depends on what it means to earn a living. If he lives in the Sudan and can live on $2 USD a day, then, sure he can earn a living trading one contract. If he lives in your country or my country, then he can only make a living trading one contract if he lives in a cardboard box and receives state aid to make up the difference.

 

Could be be incredibly talented? Perhaps as talented as an individual who can flip a coin 10 times in a row on a regular basis. If not that fortunate, then he is probably omitting just a small bit of information from you.

 

 

MM

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You can't learn how to trade the markets if you don't already know how to trade.

 

If you know how to trade then trading the markets becomes doable and there is no need to pay someone to learn how to trade. I agree with a lot of the reasons mentioned by Steve above about why you wouldn't be able to find someone worth learning from if you were willing to pay.

 

Trading is knowing how to buy low or sell high. It is understanding when, if, or where, there is going to be demand or when, if, or where there is going to be supply. Some people develop a knack for this beginning when they are toddlers, way before they ever know what a financial or commodities market is; others simply do not get it and are continuously fooled into paying to much or selling too low.

 

If you know how to do this before you learn about markets, then transferring your mindset to the markets is not that hard. If you need to learn to trade and then learn to trade the markets at the same time, you are probably doomed.

 

When you trade you are buying from sellers and selling to buyers in the same way that any other buyer or seller of goods and services operates. In the same way, you need to perceive that there will be buyers at higher prices if you wish to buy now or sellers at lower prices if you wish to sell now; otherwise, there is no point to buying or selling.

 

If you are going to buy because the market is at "support", or because of a fib retracement or its proximity to a value node, there will be many times that a guy like me will pay for your lunch, but on balance, you will pay for my vacations, redo my bathroom, etc, and end up throwing up your lunch. I will trade you a few lunches or dinners for a vacation anytime.

 

If you know how to trade, then shadowing someone who is taking money from the markets, would not be a bad idea. It might be a short cut to stripping away a lot of the myths about trading.

 

Okay so one final comment just to try to provide some hope for people struggling....first, trying to help "struggling traders" is what I came here for 6 years ago....my small insignificant attempt to do something right....what ever happened I am willing to let the chips lay....no explanation needed

 

Now as to the idea that you "can't learn unless you already know".....like so many riddles, it is both right and wrong....I think it is difficult if not impossible in this environment to find qualify education....Look at the what happened when "spookywill" showed up....although he has some skills, his ability to transmitt anything of educational value sucks....right from the beginning he provides dated material and when challenged he says ...this is a "legacy concept".....yeah that helps, especially while people are getting their asses kicked trying to trade it....more recently he suggested that the "odds" of a move occuring were "65%" and then no explanation until someone has to come back and ask again "how did you arrive at this number"...only then do we find out that THIS concept is actually pretty useful (relatively up to date)....but how did that happen....not because the guy had teaching skillls but because some of YOU folks decided to do the research.....The bottom line for me....and my suggestion to all of you is that you look carefully at what happened there....what you learned and what you have to "take away" was the result of your own work and initiative....not his, not mine...yours...and for my dime, that is still the best way to learn how to do this...that is to observe, to research, and then to synthesize information that is current for use in this (or whatever market you trade)....If you folks were to find just one concept like that per week I think in a short time, it would go a long way toward providing a viable tradable edge....

 

Good luck

Steve

Edited by steve46

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* * *

 

it is hard to come up with a persuasive reason to get someone to increase size who has achieved everything they want with their tradng. He has nothing to prove and has an abundance of money. (Abundance & high net worth are not the same thing as I hope I made clear btw).

 

I have no idea about whether or not he is a good person to learn from. My comment was to the fact your friend is trading the MINIMUM after 20 years. Now, if he's still figuring things out, he should be trading the minimum. But you don't portray him as a person still figuring things out. You say it's not a hobby for him and that he's earned his living, achieved everything he wants, has nothing prove, has an abundance of money, etc. The fact remains, however, that he has not graduated beyond trading the MINIMUM after 20 years. TWENTY YEARS!

 

Curiously, you don't reveal what he's been trading for 20 years. With $10,000, it is obviously not the big S&P.

 

For me there's something not quite right about the picture you portray of this hugely successful 1-LOT trader. I admit it is because of my personal view of things.

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As far as I am aware most months he takes out more than the 10k that he leaves in sometimes significantly so. I don't really know more than that. Things might have changed a little (what with inflation over the last 20 years)! The point is it supports him and his family. His lifestyle is pretty comfortable if not opulent, he is certainly not a high net worth individual. The key thing is trading provides all that he wants from it. He certainly is not 'still figuring things out'.

 

postscript: Just spoke he is favouring currencies at the moment, EUR in particular. He is trading 3 full units (300,000 euro) of that instrument. Inflation I guess. Still the principles remain the same :)

 

postscript2: The account size he maintains is simply to provide margin. Most would consider him over leveraged looking at that alone but of course the reverse is true as that does not represent his total capital.

 

Size is not everything. In the context of this discussion it is (imho) nothing. You make the point about trading the minimum which is fair enough. If he had traded the maximum while maintaining the same level of risk (RoR ) and compounding his gains, there would not be any market on the planet that could accommodate the size he would now need to trade to maintain that level of risk.

 

Are you saying you would rather learn from some one who risks more? That would be ironic as the chances of surviving to be a veteran (which is a measure of longevity btw) diminishes frighteningly at higher levels of risk. Not having a thorough appreciation of risk is why veteran traders become blown up veteran traders. A surprisingly common phenomena after a few years of 'great success' and the main reason jobbing traders don't get to set their own risk limits or even the instruments they can trade.

Edited by BlowFish

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One last thing. I'd of probably have completely agreed with you in the past Gosu. I do recall having beers with him in the dim distant past and arguing the other side of the coin pretty vehemently. As I get older and maybe less ambitious (or perhaps less 'driven') I can understand him better. Of course having all the material things one actually need changes your perspective too.

 

When you ask people why they want to trade the first answer is usually 'money' when you scrape a little deeper it turns out it is actually the freedom that money affords. Steves post seemed pretty focused on the money, which is fine, it is more important to some people than others and in the commercial world there always investors or shareholders to keep happy. I guess that's what prompted my post...think about what is really important to you and don't loose sight of that.

 

To try and get back on topic :) I guess that influences the type of Mentor one would choose? (not that you really get a choice of course).

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Well very interesting here... I have been teaching all my life and you need to find a fit between your coach/mentor and yourself. I have just started posting to my blog the Live Results of trading 1 contract as that is what most beginners can trade and even with that, they are over leveraged in most cases. It is difficult to make a living trading 1 contract but one must crawl before walking.

 

I do not take on every trader who wishes to be in my program and in the end it is what the trader learns and applies and is accoutable to him/herself that is the key. I agree with comments here that many "Educators" are just BS'ing and want to grab your money and run leaving you the trader no better off than when you started. On the other hand I find that most traders who want to learn, do not want to hear the Cold Hard Facts and are drawn to the BS and pie in the sky promises or illustions noted by many providers of indicators, systems, programs ect. I can tell you from years of experience that many traders who I have spoken with do not want to hear it when I say that they Can Not make a living with an account of $2500 but there are many other providers who will imply they can so they gravitate and pay them instead of listening to me. I tell them that they should trade in SIM, find a coach who will help them understand the REAL facts of trading even if it is not what they want to hear. They can certaintly learn to trade, build their account and become successful traders but it can be a hard road.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Uncle Mike

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... just some thoughts - mostly mirroring and reinforcing some of the foregoing posts.

 

..

Are you saying you would rather learn from some one who risks more? That would be ironic as the chances of surviving to be a veteran (which is a measure of longevity btw) diminishes frighteningly at higher levels of risk. Not having a thorough appreciation of risk is why veteran traders become blown up veteran traders. A surprisingly common phenomena after a few years of 'great success' and the main reason jobbing traders don't get to set their own risk limits ...

 

Yep. “Victory destroys knowledge” DanJohn

 

and re

For me there's something not quite right about the picture you portray of this hugely successful 1-LOT trader. I admit it is because of my personal view …

Yes, something is “not quite right about the picture” – There is a time to size up and a time to size down and to stay the same all the time does indicate something…

neurosis? conservative caution? realism?

reminds me of Joey Knish, the only one who really 'made it' in the movie Rounders.

“… don't got the stones? You ignorant punk. I play for money. I owe rent. Child support. I play for money, not the f**kin' world series on ESPN.”

 

However, a trader’s scale has ZERO bearing on the potential quality of education s/he could provide…so

Getting back to the original question of the thread … The keys are not the quality, etc of the educator, nor the commitment, etc of the student. The key is the match between what is offered by the teacher and what is needed by the student. It is my experience that those who simply train in the ways of another do not have staying power / longevity because what they learn is really not in accord with the way that is really true to their own nature. There are thousands of arts and thousands of sciences for setting up the simple trading acts of buying and selling. Imo, it is far better to find your own way from among all those thousands of ways, then the teachers you need to hone your skills will literally just show up and what they have to pass on to you will not take long at all and even high rates for very short training sessions will be worth it.

 

Far, far too many pay for what they don’t know what they’re going to get [messed up sentence :)].

In their trading education Far, far too manyfirst try to apply normal rules of general education ... then hope to move to specialty training . But, all the while, every general construct about markets they assimilate from ‘out there’ fogs up developing their individually correct way to perceive and represent the market process.

Turn it around(!) Out the gate(!)- Any reading, coursework, training a beginner does needs to have an overriding concern of finding one’s specialty - first!

 

 

ie – how much would I pay ? if someone is going to be telling me what to do and how to do it, he needs to be paying me instead of me paying him. :)

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