SIUYA

tend to agree with you. Usually before a decline you either often have a squeeze up of some sort....or a false break to the downside. Both sucker people in.....and provide better opportunities to short rather than just trying to pick a top in a bull market. However I admit I have no skin in the game in the US equity market at present

according to the story - John already had problems before the revenge trading by taking trades he should not have. Post 3 sums it up nicely IMHO. ............ Admittedly I have had a blur of trading before, but its more when other things outside of trading cause it. As an Australian a few years ago i was not accustomed to the cabin fever you can get living in cooler climate, darker shorter days.....at least when it was alcohol induced I had some enjoyment from the blur. Again - recognize it, work out a solution that works - probably by trial and error, and then fix it......often it is not trading that is the problem. The trading reveals all.

I am generally bearish by nature.....I just choose to wait for the opportune time to sell rather than fighting the trend. disclaimer: no one forced me to write this, I dont care about 10k, 100k or 1mil in the dow, I am just a cynical middle aged man but have always been so even when younger, I agree this is not a contest, my computers will soon be back on line after renovations gone astray, I have zero respect for builders even though my brothers are in the building game, even less respect for accountants, after time off from trading I am less interested in day trading and more interested in bigger picture themes. No animals were hurt in this renovation unless you include children (hey - you gotta applaud their small hands are good for somethings) and my bank account.

Ged - I am entirely guessing here as I dont trade US stocks or apple. However in case no one else answers or knows..... These could be overnight trades or late trades that are related to off market transactions whereby buyers and sellers have traded outside market hours. They might be an amalgamation of orders... I found this.... 'Investors may trade in the Pre-Market (4:00-9:30 a.m. ET) and the After Hours Market (4:00-8:00 p.m. ET). Participation from Market Makers and ECNs is strictly voluntary and as a result, these sessions may offer less liquidity and inferior prices. Stock prices may also move more quickly in this environment. Investors who anticipate trading during these times are strongly advised to use limit orders. Read more: Apple Inc. After Hours Trading - NASDAQ.com It could also be possibly be where large orders are matched in a similar way without constant interference by smaller orders, or even related to a hedged option trade that may have occurred. All guesses, so sorry if thats not much help.

JP - when ever someone asks me about earning 'supplemental income' I give them a list of books to read.....market wizards, reminiscences of a stock operator...blah blah. A few simple enjoyable ones..... then I say when you have read those come back to me and if you are still interested I will help you. The number of people who have asked that question, read those books and come back and asked questions - 1 out of about 20 who have asked. That one person has gone on to develop his own style (more long term swing and trend following) and is making a full time living from it, and I never really needed to do much more than push him in the right direction. So rather than duck the question....test their commitment first. (Then do what Mits suggests...SIM trading to most likely humble them) )

" Would folks make the most of it? What would be the percentage that would make it after a year?" My guess is the % would be the same anyways. no need for the govt to give people money to trade. They are already happy to throw it away in the market themselves.....all such a system would do is be another subsidy for the brokerage firms. plus there is no real infrastructure or skills build and its most likely going to end in the pockets of a few anyways....may as well give everyone simulators, let them trade and the few winners get to keep 50% of the overall pool, the govt saves 50% of their original budget, and saves on brokerage. what you are assuming is a couple of things.... one - trading can be taught to just anyone two - $5k is enough to not be undercapitalised three - there is a prescribed method for teaching and strategy that works that can be universally applied to everyone it would make for good headlines.....'government training to encourage speculation'....isn't that how many people lost jobs in the first place? :doh:

you will need an account. https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/software/tws/usersguidebook/priceriskanalytics/intro_to_model_navigator.htm

:helloooo: Melvin Udall says it all...... : Where did they teach you to talk like that, in some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

I was discussing this guy with some friends about a year ago - none of his companies ever really made any money, nor produced anything as far as we could tell. It was all 'big talk; raise lots of money spend it and grow your wealth using a share price. Plenty do it, and he did it very well....however picking the top in these things is fraught with danger. When there is no substance behind it it crumbles quickly. Occasionally they get the timing right, they hit oil, mining riches etc and get on a commodity boom etc and are able to maintain that wealth to a degree. In this case I think the miss fortune is for those who invested in his companies!

yes - you wonder if sometimes its the speed of knowing when you are wrong is important....and hence you might not repeat things as much. Most of us stop because of pain (of loss), but I have a friend whose has a great attribute. ....thats his ability to keep going at something. He once had about 7-9 goes at a trade idea, and ripped up about 400k. (he worked for an institution), when it finally came off he made about 1.2mil. Most of us would stop after 2-3 times. But this guy will swing 5k, to 5m to 50mil if you let him. (I am far more a tortoise) However - he is the perfect trader that a manager of traders should occasionally let off the leash in the right market or regime. Maybe the manager (mr Blue) applies the rules for when to unleash the personality (mr Pink)? Maybe JL needed the internal manager? I am not like JL in any sense, but I do know of the feelings of impatience. Its the fear of missing the opportunity...not so much an overconfidence of being right....and this is most likely played out with his rule of 'waiting for it to turn' and 'making money right from the time the trade is on'. ...however this is all speculative Going beyond - i do think often we need tricks or other similar things to keep us on the straight and narrow. Either this is via friends, or other things such switching off at times of the day, enforced holidays, withdrawing half of profits after a big win. .......... ................ as to stress.....some people thrive under it and will always torture themselves. It seems to me that expectations and failure thereof/or even reaching and then disappointment for many leads to the most stress. Its when you are a tortoise and want to be the hare or vv that the stress occurs.

On reading the JL book from the link Mits posted - written at the end of his trading career. It would seem that his blowups were a result of his impatience. If his rules - which seemed to be the opposite to what the brokers suggest constitutes a lot of the reasons for retail losing - allowed him to make the big money, I can only assume he also broke those rules....and impatience seemed to be the one issue that he actually mentions a few times as something that plagued him. If that then led to some spectacular revenge trades the blow up could be quick, otherwise, impatience can cause you not only to go too early, get out too early it can also cause you to reverse decisions too often - and a slow death blowup can easily occur.

Not at all, but i do think that if you dont define what you are trying to get to then its open slather. Hard to ask to shy away from something that everyone seems to refer to the one hand, but then want to discuss something that most dont have any experience to on the other. But I get your point....often following open discussions and what the point is, if there is any can be either interesting or completely way way off what was originally intended. This is interesting, while i have not read this it seems the same as something else i have read about the key keeping a healthy brain is giving it new complex things to learn. eg; learn a language, new concepts, music etc;;;; not just do the crossword or sudoku when you get older. It also relates to the ides Taleb (Antifragile) talks about that lots of little stresses to the muscles are a good way to make them stronger which also has a medical base. Not sure how it relates to blowups, unless you think of it in terms of JL keeping it together somehow with some complex and ever more complex rituals until eventually his system blows up. In which case there may have been a flaw in his ultimate system of wealth generation in the first place? as opposed to a mental characteristic of desire that causes the blowup. eg; the rattling old spaceship built to go fast, and it does but its also designed to burn up rather than return. ............................... Love it....as I know you just went through the building process, and we are renovating here, can I substitute builder here and reverse the roles....

Zdo - if you want to talk about inner voices then ignore suicide you are not going far beyond. It seems an integral part of his story, and would be for many who suicide (I would surmise from what little I know of this) I do agree with you that if you want the thread to focus more on his blowups then you might want to focus on technical aspects of why he did......not sure how you could ignore his mindset/voices though in order to do this. I also agree as for other suicides - think Kodak Eastman.....successful, never blew up.... ....................... As for simplifying - thats just me. My wife likes to complicate and create dramas, I like to simplify and avoid them, and as for anyone else they probably best work that out for them selves. (I have also been accused of not seeing the world in the same way as others) What are you really trying to get beyond Livermore? Focusing only on the blowups... If he was self destructive then he might be deliberately seeking the pity from losing, he might simply be be a part of the active v passive argument and that everyone reverts. Hell these days he might be ADHD, manic, bipolar, depressive or simply a chronic gambler. He also might have excelled in particular markets - a one trick pony, but could not really know when to fold in other marketrs. As I understand it the story JL never reveals enough info as to explain the blowups If it applies to us....well first to have the relevant blowups you have to make the money - this applies to so few as most never make it.

if you really are asking this question you should not be trading - especially options. this is fundamental supply and demand and liquidity. Understanding how options pricing works and moves is important as well (The main difference in most instruments v options is the liquidity factor. Most instruments have many many various traders, whereas most instruments might have only a few market makers....hence potentially less liquidity.) if you really are asking this question you should not be trading - especially options. ...................... no - you might have 1 buyer who wants to buy 10,000 options and you are just supplying them some. Or you might have buyers who dont really want to buy but will set a low price at which they will transact Or there might be any where between (0 and world population) buyers at different prices. dont confuse quantity v number of traders v number of trades.

orders not being filled .... possible reasons... 1...your broker f.d up 2...your price was too high 3...did you get some filled and then not the balance? need more information. But basically....you may have wanted to sell 400 at a price but no one wanted to buy at that price. If you had a GTC order but it was at a limit - then its irrelevant. You might have required at sell at market - down to a price limit. Remember those quotes are indicative....

ever had or heard of...... a doctor with no bedside manner? a nurse that forgets to check something, but gets away with it. a miss diagnosis a plumber who fixes a leak but does not fix it. a restaurant that closes down after 3 months, 3 years, 5 years a builder who quotes a job and then cuts corners an accountant who gives you advice that turns out to be wrong a politician that gives an answer because it political expedient or popular rather than dealing with the problem. ......the only difference IMHO is that trading gives immediate results - pass, fail and that you cant hide from it except through deceipt and denial. If you dont think that most other professions have high failure rates and poor decision making then you are living in denial. Most other professions if you deal with them long enough from a traders perspective simply dont admit they are wrong as often they pass on the risks to their clients.

it depends on what volume you are looking at. For options there are usually market making quotes that show in the screen 'indicative prices' and quantities. eg; 10 qty bit at 168. 10 offered at 172. Now you can choose to buy/sell at any price you like and try and get a better price. Also dont forget that most of these quantities and prices quoted will change with the underlying changing, and other option series trading. eg; you might want to sell 100 at 169.... You might then offer 50 at 169 - if they immediately sell then it tells you there might be some demand there.....then you might try and offer more at 169, or maybe some at 170 to test the demand. or just sell the balance at 168..... What you see on the screen is largely 'indicative' - that is the key to remember with most options. Often the daily volume at a series will show you what is trading at present, and even if there is no volume traded in a series today it does not mean there is no interest in people trading that series. .............. this is an entirely different matter to option open interest (volume) - which shows the number of outstanding options contracts open... This will largely show you what has traded in the past. Options Trading Volume And Open Interest ............

Mits....as I know you like simplicity.... Maybe Mr Pink is simply impulsive and acts purely on the latest thought. Mr Blue is able to stop and think beyond a few steps. From Mr Livermores point of view.....Mr Pink sounds like he ran roughshod over Mr Blue in the final decision of his life...but that it was likely Mr Pink that both allowed him the ability to be able to amass the fortune and the skills to loose it. We all have Mr Pinks and Blues....often they mix and become Mr Lilac, but hey where is the fun in being Mr Lilac..... The best Mr Blue is one who is really in control BUT also knows when to let Mr Pink on and off the leash.....some people need an external Mr Pink or a Mr Blue. ............. given the current house renovations.....colour choices are topical at the moment. We are going all white! (for those interested - research Phillip Matthews hedge fund manager....he does not mind letting Mr Pink work for him in trading)

Zdo - I like Mr Bass, and denial is strong in the human race, so is optimism - we need them both to survive. however we should not forget the old saying which still reigns true.... "borrow $1mil and cant repay, you are in trouble.....borrow $100mil and cant repay its the lender who is in trouble"

the comedian gives a pretty good view of it all. Who would want gold on the titanic when a lifeboat or live vest is what you need? Money is simply a means of exchange for goods and services - other than that it has as much value as gold or dirt or labour or chickens. But we could go on.... Personally.... Bullish - asset allocation to gold over the long term but limited to a small percentage of assets. (and if the shtf its all worthless anyway.) Bearish - trading

The joys of the self-employed. The NZ Taxation Office suspected a fishing boat owner wasn't paying proper wages to his help and sent an agent to investigate him. NZTO AUDITOR: "I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them". Boat Owner: "Well, there's Clarence, my hired hand, he's been with me for 3 years. I pay him $1,000 a week plus free room and board. Then there's the mentally challenged guy. He works about 18 hours every day and does about 90% of the work around here. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of Coruba rum and a dozen Lagers every Saturday night so he can cope with life. He also gets to sleep with my wife occasionally".. NZTO AUDITOR: "That's the guy I want to talk to - the mentally challenged one". Boat Owner: "That'll be me. What'd you want to know"?

This will depend on the instrument and the broker. There are various methods of doing it it different countries. From spreadbetting, CFDs and swaps (essentially similar) To requiring margins for futures, and then also co mingling accounts within non segregated pools of money and offsetting client accounts.....even with segregated accounts this occurs (bastards!) But in keeping it simple..... yes. They collect interest and while it will be likely to be competitive and less than you actually physically borrowing the cash from a bank and paying the full amount yourself. It is still a charge, and it will deplete your account in the same way as any fees and charges. There are often spreads between the long and the shorts, the cash balances especially in various currencies etc; - but it seems if you are asking these questions you have a lot of research to do also these questions should be asked to your broker - if they dont answer them, cant answer them, or the evidence of your statements is different to what they tell you, then that should be a red flag for the broker.

Like the diet/fitness industry.... Check out this interesting article. The transformation that only takes a few minutes

It all depends on your expected returns. Walk first then run...... If you can get a return on 25k that is reasonable and you have minimal drawdowns, understand how and why it works etc etc etc.....only then you should leverage it to reasonable levels - depending on the instrument. eg; stocks - unless you are running a long short book or a hedged portfolio, at 4:1, any black swan event - those that occur about every 4 years not 1 in 100 will wipe you out. alternatively you may as well go all in and try and make a killing or fail quickly then move on.... If you can live off X% return based on $X then asking 1000 people their opinions is a pointless exercise. As Zdo rightly says - its system specific. Just remember when you leverage - the broker will spend/loose/take your money first (your initial stake/equity) and is not in the business of providing you with risk capital. They are in the business to provide you with capital that they dont want to have at risk. For this there is a charge.... so you have to get a return over an above the interest charge first. ...and as your equity decreases so does the leverage capital....its often something people forget. ................................. but there was an old saying that went something like this. 'There are lots of bold traders, there are lots of old traders. There are very few old bold traders' - they do exist but they are rare for a reason. Walk then run and occasionally run hard when the opportunity allows it......