omni2006

CBOT Market Profile Handbook hth

actually, the atrader guy (Jimbo) started an announcement type thread on ET on April 10th of this year. since it's on a different forum, i won't post the link here, but you can search for "live tpo profile" and should get the thread if you are interested. hope this helps. Take care - Derek

i don't pay much attention to overnight profiles or pocs. even though the globex session is 2.5 times the RTH session, volume is usually about 20-25% of RTH. i do want to know the overnight range and any significant reference points (i.e. reaction to news events or reports, etc). otherwise, i rely on the daily RTH profile. hth

absolutely, nothing wrong at all with this suggestion. i just suggested a card since the OP stated he was looking for a card. as for the condition of the Matrox cards, i have three in perfect working order and have bought and sold several others; never a glitch or hiccup with any of them. i suspect it is like anything else hardware related - YMMV btw, good thoughts on the dual PCIe mobo. if anyone is upgrading, this is definitely something to keep in mind when looking at your options. have a great week!

agreed. i've been happily using the old Matrox g200 for a few years with no problems. it's PCI and has 8mb per video port. plenty for charts. $50 and done. hth

Hi Hie and welcome to the forum. obviously, TL is a good place to start. This thread lists a lot of different resources. some are websites, some are books, some are PDFs. for courses, i am very partial to the CL/CES. Jim Dalton's offers this course through his company, DLC Profiles, over at MarketsInProfile. Material and interaction coming straight from the man behind Mind Over Markets and Markets In Profile. I'm about three months into the course and find Jim's discussions and insights indispensable. as for trading rooms, the only MP related room i have been in and can recommend is JP's room. he's a former floor trader, works real hard to keep a positive and productive room, and has over 20yrs trading experience. there are several MP chart providers and esignal is one of them. i'm not a fan, but won't hate on a product/vendor either. i will say that i have been using WindoTrader for almost two months and have stopped looking for chart vendors. currently, the only data source available for WT is esignal, so i couldn't completely escape good ol' e$ignal (though WT is testing additional feeds). hope this helps. and, again, welcome to TL. take care - omni

i've never visited it, but Reza runs the room you mentioned: profiletraders.com. He also posts his trades in a daily blog. somewhere on the site it mentions using a 2.25 max stop, but just a quick look at today's blog shows adding a third unit to a position that already had 4pts heat. maybe he has changed his thresholds and just hasn't updated the site. many have mentioned JP and i have been a member of JP's room off and on for a while. I too recommend checking it out. next time he has a free trial, sign up and give it a whirl. I like JP a lot and think he's a stand up guy trying to do the right thing. hope this helps

his original 2008 goal was $1mm. when he reached that, he raised it to $1.25mm. he finished the year up roughly $1.6mm. he changed his goals a couple times for 2009, trying to get a good read on the market and his trading trends. initially he was going to cut back and just wanted to be green ... even up by $1 by the end of 2009 was to be considered successful. he then got his trading groove going and set a $1.2mm goal for 2009. since, he's adjusted it to a flat $1mm. Don trades decent size (i think it is in chunks of 15, 30, and 60), but frequency is the standout here. Don is a seat-holding liquidity provider, so, yes, he does trade a crap-ton of contracts. it's not unusual for him to trade 2-4k contracts (so in a single session, 1-2k round turns). Don spends a lot of time in the market, putting out feeler or probing trades. he has repeatedly pointed out that he is the type of trader who gets a better feel for the current by being in the water. if he makes money on his feeler bets, great, but he is testing the water for a bigger current he can ride. also, keep in mind that Don doesn't get too wrapped up in daily averages and statistics. his intraday win-loss ratio and P/L per trade doesn't look too appealing. but he probably averages about $7-9k net per day. i'm sure that looks appealing to most people. hope that helps.

maybe i'm the last to see this, but i thought it was fun. and a good way to head into the weekend. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1pD4xPe2M]Enjoy![/ame] Have a great weekend, traders ...

Hi Johnny - James is correct, WindoTrader can produce composite profiles. i have attached a couple screenshots showing some different ways to do it. basically, you can have a composite on the left side (the different shading is for the different days), merge daily profiles within the main chart, or a combination. there may be other ways, but i don't typically use composites so i'm not as familiar with those settings. i don't have either market, so i used the ES. hope this helps.

is it just me, or did the attachment not make it to the post?

correct, acceptance of price. a lot of volume will be concentrated within a small range of prices. correct, no price or prices really stand out as accepted. here it is the direction, not concentrated prices, that is accepted. the high volume is within the context of recent sessions, not any particular price level within a single session. when there is strong/healthy volume and a trendy day, you should see volume pretty fairly distributed across the prices. it is unlikely that a significant POC will emerge. no worries, i think just about everyone here has a desire to advance their own market understanding and help others do the same. traders helping traders hth thanks and take care - omni

correct, John, i'm currently enrolled in DLC Profiles' CL/CES course. i'll put my $0.02 towards your questions and, as you noted, leave it open for others to chime in on as well. btw, good questions John. the shortest answer will be this: yes, subjectivity is a constant in discretionary trading, be it through a Market Profile lens or any other perspective. that being said, Dalton still uses those data points in his analysis and teachings. however, he makes a concerted effort to frame concrete levels in a more abstract view. it's too easy for a trader to find a level, any level, and fall in love with it, completely disregarding any discernible context. if i have a range estimate and multiple TPOs, yet the market blows right through my levels, Jim doesn't want me overweighing old information. the market has provided me new information and deemed my previous information as currently irrelevant. and, of course, even that could change with new information. it often comes down to monitoring expectations. if something unexpected happens, that is powerful information that i need to incoporate into my market view. interestingly, Jim discussed something along these lines a week or so ago. and, without divulging proprietary course material, the answer here is context. a TPO based Value Area is more visually derived (i.e. TPOs above/below POC) than a Volume based Value Area, so it is easiest to use TPOs for visual reference. but, again, if volume paints a different picture, that information needs to be processed and evaluated. the expected is that volume and TPOs closely resemble each other. regardless of any method to calculate anything, Jim is never advocates buying/selling any level or price without putting things into context. understandably, traders want to be able to distill everything down to mathematical recipes, but that's not what Jim or DLC or Market Profile is about. i've come to accept that there is more art than science to this game. and, since there are a lot of very technical discussions within our forum, i am compelled to reiterate that this is: 1. my perspective 2. related to discretionary trading. i'm not trying to step on any toes or discredit any method, strategy, or system. i sincerely hope this helps. take care and have a great week - omni

through some digging, i found that the presentation i was referring to was done in 2001 and hosted by Zap Futures. Well, RJO bought Zap and the link went away with the acquisition. however, i was able to find my old archive of the audio file and the presentation slides. i put the slides into a Word file and uploaded them here. and here is the MP3 file. not surprisingly, what Jim was talking about in 2001 echoed his thoughts from Mind Over Markets (completed in 1990). his current teachings retain the core concepts from these previous offerings as well. btw, i left out a couple of slides that were no longer applicable (i.e. old, defunct email addresses and so forth). otherwise, it's all the original material from the free online presentation. Enjoy!

Hi John and welcome to the forum regarding studies on Vol vs. TPO POCs, i did see a study a few years back that suggested the calculation was generally of marginal consequence. Usually, volume, ticks (trades), and TPOs line up pretty closely. here is my answer: it depends. i am sure it will not be a popular response, but there it is. context is more important to me than mathematical specifics. btw, i don't think you could have picked a better day to post your question. today our Volume POC was 12pts lower than our TPO based POC. so which is it? when we take a contextual look at the profile here's what stands out to me: an elongated profile and no prominent POC, regardless of calculation method. something else that stands out to me is what didn't happen. ideally, volume will correspond to time, so that both POC's would be within the same general proximity. that didn't happen today. the unexpected happened. we spent more time than volume at our TPO POC. that means even though we were in that area for a while today not a lot of business was actually taking place. and, late in the day, we did a lot of business much lower. i know that doesn't give you a very tidy response, but i really think taking into account market context trumps any level or area. for days like today, it just may be that neither POC is very important. but it is useful to be aware of both areas and the circumstances surrounding each. i hope this helps.

When I first ran across Market Profile a few years ago, I started another journey along with my market education journey: finding Market Profile charting that suited my particular needs. I have had the sincere pleasure to work and interact with several great charting services, but still felt my search was unfinished. This search brought me to WindoTrader. One of the biggest attractions was that WindoTrader (WT) was created for MP charting. Period. MP was not an afterthought or a little side item you could add to the main charting package. If you don't use MP you will be missing out on the horsepower WindoTrader brings to the table. The next standout aspect was the depth of WindoTrader's MP prowess. I would definitely say the developers adopted the 'master of one' philosophy. The breadth and depth of MP related functions is, in my view, unmatched. I can effortlessly do things that would require some work around in most charting packages. WindoTrader does MP and it does it very, very thoroughly. We're traders, so all this talk about charts better address the obvious: the look. The charts WT produces are just stunning. Scaling is top-notch and you can endlessly tweak the various visual elements of your charts. I run WT vertically on 19" LCDs and get 40-points of very legible range on an ES chart. Stellar customer support is something I have grown very accustomed to. Any IRT, Sierra, Ensign, or QuoteTracker subscribers know exactly what I’m talking about. I just expect that type of service now. Enter Richard. Richard is part of the WT development and support team and I think that guy's only joy is making sure his clients are happy and that WT suits their needs. Richard makes himself available via email, instant message, telephone, you name it, and he’s there. Okay, I’ve been all gushy, so I’ll offer some balance. If you aren't using MP, this probably isn't the right deal for you. I don't even know if it does 'standard' type charts. I also don't think there is a lot of opportunity for coders and programmers to recode stuff. Since I’m not a programmer, that is a non-issue for me, but thought I’d put it out there for those who do like to code. And, finally, the data provider list is currently limited to one: esignal. The developers are evaluating other data providers for future implementation, but for now it is just esignal. Conclusion: I couldn't be happier. I'd seen some very nice screenshots of WT over the years but just never made my way over to them until recently. I'm happily taking my own WindoTrader screenshots now

I’ve never known a Market Profile trader who hadn’t read Mind over Markets at least twice. It is widely considered ‘the bible’ of Market Profile and I understand that type of reverence. Dalton’s book is rich with content, reaching far beyond just ‘buy here or sell here’ suggestions. MoM very capably takes on the task of presenting a learning method specifically for a very complex subject and the actual core of that complex subject. Each time I re-read the text, I pull more from each section and connect more ideas. This book was not written to be a read-once-and-put-it-away type of resource. This book was written to be absorbed and used on a daily basis. For anyone looking for Market Profile (or any trading) material, this is a must have.

i realize this thread is a few years old, but since there have been recent links and updates, i wanted to add some resources i've found very useful. 1. The CL/CES course via DLC Profiles (Jim Dalton's company) - i'm only a few weeks into this 12-month program, and already i can barely recognize the trader i was at the start. and i still have MILES and MILES to go. I can't thank the guys at DLC enough for all their help. 2. Anatomy of CBOT Market Profile - This is an online presentation by Jim Dalton. Viewers can also download/print a PDF of the presentation slides. 3. ASX on Market Profile - I don't often see this site listed, but i think it does a great job of putting together a compressed but useful primer on Market Profile. 4. The CBOT Market Profile Manual - This is pretty much the manual on Market Profile. i know it has been mentioned elsewhere, but figure it doesn't hurt to have the link again. and some water. it's a bit dry, imo 5. CBOT Market Profile Educational Resources - several links for various MP related presentations and such. 6. Market Profile Basics - An overview of some core MP stuff. 7. Interview with Pete Steidlmayer - An interview with the founder of Market Profile. i used to have a link for another Dalton audio/video presentation but currently can't locate it. if i find it, i will post it. obviously, there will be some overlap and some repetition. i've yet to find evidence that either is detrimental to learning anything. the market is thick with context and nuances, so i'm a believer in seeing the same thing many times to really reinforce learning and establish an unshakable foundation. hope this helps. take care - omni

thank you, but I too am a perpetual learner you're very welcome, i hope it was helpful. take care and have a great weekend - omni

thanks to everyone posting links to this bill and related articles and petitions. i know it is on many traders' minds, mine included, and i don't think we can be too loud about this. even if i didn't trade, it doesn't take much thought to realize passing this bill would be devastating - to the US, to the economy, and to the world. but, i'm a bit torn about one thing. i would love to recommend people read some of the comments posted on various online articles pertaining to this ludicrous tax proposal. i really would, because it could be entertaining. and enlightening. the breadth of complete and utter misinformation is astounding. however, the frightening aspect is that a lot of people believe in and support this bill. they are buying what they are being fed. and, obviously, the sponsors and co-sponsors of this bill quite literally have no idea what they are talking about nor the economically crippling ramifications of what they are suggesting. so, definitely make your voice heard and help keep this lunacy from materializing. and, if you have a strong stomach, take a moment to read the public's perception of reality ... sadly, it is far too similar to those sponsoring the bill. finally, this should help traders, of all instruments, strategies, and timeframes, quickly develop a new sensitivity to anti-trader legislation. even if this thing completely falls on its butt, i would expect them to try to accomplish the same thing via some other bill or bills ... be it taxes or fees or what have you, i don't trust this issue to die quickly or quietly or completely. have a great weekend take care - omni

Hi 156 - the two primary texts i would recommend would be Mind Over Markets and Markets In Profile, both by Jim Dalton. i would also recommend Steidlmayer On Markets. Jim Dalton also has a list of resources over at the DLC Profiles site. one of the resources listed is for a presentation Jim gave on Market Profile. i don't know how capably i can convey this to you now, but i would definitely recommend keeping a couple of things in mind as you go along. first, Market Profile is not all about entries and exits. second, Market Profile is about understanding market generated behavioral information. third, context is king; all things are not created equally in the market and studying Market Profile can facilitate that understanding. i hope this is helpful and that yours is a positive journey. take care - omni

correct. so if we have established a balance area, a push outside that balance is initiative and we get range extension. the responsive tail means that the initiative effort was shut down. there wasn't enough power behind the move to sustain it, a more powerful responsive movement came in, and created the tail. back into the balance we go. we had a nice example of this today in the ES. at point #1, higher prices would be expected to shut down selling, but it didn't so someone was trying to initiate an upward move. after we got range extension up, sellers responded at point #2 and the upward movement failed. the area that sparked responsive selling lined up with yesterday's VAH (point #3). though i realize there is more complexity to the market and its behaviors, i use a very basic lens for this scenario: did the expected happen? if we reach the upper portion of a visibly recognizable balance area, did higher prices shut off the buying? if not, that is unexpected and therefore not responsive. it is initiative. that's only for the direction. keep in mind how many different agendas are at play in the market at any given time. if, like we described above, the initiative move is weak and overtaken by responsive sellers then that initiative attempt failed. not only has this upward move failed sending us back down into balance, this can easily generate downward momentum and spark an initiative downward move at the bottom of our balance area. i think understanding the market through Market Profile simply takes a lot of time and practice. remember that MP is not a strategy, nor is it a trading system. of course, that's not to say people can't create trading systems based off of MP. i sincerely hope that helps. thanks and take care - omni