[lastninja2]

Hi,

Just felt like introducing myself to the TL crew


Had half a mind to give an in-depth review of my life over the last 6 months or so, but instead I'll just cut right to the chase. Can give more details later if there's interest.

July 2011: Quit job with 20k GBP. Tending bars on the side now.

August 2011 - Present: Have been watching FESX, primarily DOM, but occasionally mixing it up with some charts and/or an indicator or two.

P/L 2011: Lost about 34EUR via TT/Velocity Futures. Clearly don't know what I'm doing.

P/L 2012: Lost about 30GBP via CMC Market Spread Betting Platform
[Started executing £1/point bets on 'EURO50'. At least this way I can get stuck in without blasting through my 20k on the real FESX market]

Getting profitable with one lot is proving difficult, as I expected it to be. Nevertheless I'll keep staring at the DOM until it starts to make sense to me.

Here's the meat of the thread. A few private videos I made with Camtasia, and uploaded to Youtube. Gives you some insight in to what I'm up to...


2011 November 21st: FESX going long, losing 1 tick.

2011 November 21st: FESX going long, losing 1 tick. - YouTube

2011 November 21st: FESX going long, losing 1 tick. - YouTube

2011 November 22nd: FESX afternoon. When will the market reverse from day-low?

2011 November 22nd: FESX afternoon. When will the market reverse from day-low? - YouTube

2011 November 22nd: FESX afternoon. When will the market reverse from day-low? - YouTube

2011 December 12th. Classic "Offer, to Buy" action. FESX.

2011 December 12th. Classic "Offer, to Buy" action. FESX. - YouTube

2011 December 12th. Classic "Offer, to Buy" action. FESX. - YouTube

2011 December 13th. The Blue-Red Shift

2011 December 13th. The Blue-Red Shift - YouTube

2011 December 13th. The Blue-Red Shift - YouTube

2011 November 25th. Instances of OFFERING, TO BUY. FESX Morning Phase 1.

2011 November 25th. Instances of OFFERING, TO BUY. FESX Morning Phase 1. - YouTube

2011 November 25th. Instances of OFFERING, TO BUY. FESX Morning Phase 1. - YouTube

FWIW the best two pieces of advice I can give to any aspiring Futures Trader would be to
a) Enable trade sounds (bleeps) on MD_Trader if you use it [really get immersed in the action]
b) Assuming you aren't scalping for only the next couple of ticks [and frankly, I don't even know what my style is yet, so I can't say if this applies to myself], execute your trades on an equivalent spread betting product, at £1/point, but taking your entry and exit queues from the 'real' market, e.g. FESX as displayed on MD_Trader. Provokes an emotional response, but doesn't really hurt you if it goes wrong.

Always nice to hear words of encouragement from experienced guys who have walked a similar path [...to riches]......

[mdubsnz]

Hi Lastninja,

It seems you've picked up some of the 'tricks of the trade' per say already which is great.

The leaning into a large bid/offer to encourage selling/buying is a common tactic that is generally good for a few ticks depending on the instrument you're trading.

I'm by no means a pro at reading the tape, however did spend a good part of last year learning to trade off it while I was trading prop.

It always helps when you can learn from those competent in the art as they help to reinforce ideas and point out where your decision process is right or wrong.

If you would like to possibly save your self some time/pick up on in identifying some more common patterns, I would look up an e-book and video called 'NO BS DAY TRADING'. By no means is this a bible to reading the tape, but it does offer some good tips and common tricks that were used in the treasury markets a few years back by large prop firms and I assume (and can still identify them from time to time) in todays markets across a range of instruments. Some people here like the e-book, others don't, but I thought it was a good read and the video helped to point out the ideas he discusses which again helped quicken up the learning process and improve my decision making process.

Tape reading takes a lot of screen time to perfect. I like how your taking notes as your watching/on replay. This is exactly the kind of mindset needed to perfect the art.

You mentioned that you are currently unsure about your potential final time frame as a trader. Regardless of your end time frame I still believe being able to read the tape/order flow is a skill that as a trade you should spend some time developing. I no longer trade ticks per say as it wasn't the best fit for my personality. However I still use order flow to pick my entries and exits on even tho my time frame can be days.

Keep at it and all the best.

[lastninja2]

thanks dubz, for those words

Actually I've read John Grady's No BS book, maybe ten times... might be due another read this weekend.
I fully recommend it to any newbies currently fixated on traditional technical chart analysis.

Will keep powering on!

[BlueHorseshoe]

Hi LastNinja2

I know nothing about tape-reading at all I'm afraid. However, I would recommend that you consider trading the underlying instrument rather than spreadbetting.

I know that there are serious tax advantages for us living here in the UK with spreadbetting, but I think it's completely unsuitable for scalping, or any kind of high frequency day-trading. The last time that I met with someone from the leading spreadbetting firm (not sure whether I'm allowed to name it on this forum!), he explicitly stated that all their clients who are consistently profitable are those who hold positions for longer periods.

As I'm sure you're aware, there can also be other issues with Spreadbetting in terms of execution, slippage, requotes etc. Basically, it's great for swing and position trading, but I think it can pretty much anihalate any short term edge that you may find.

Moving from spreadbetting to futures was one of the single most profitable developments I made in my own trading - I went from treading water to profitability without changing any other aspect of what I was doing.

I hope that's helpful to you.

[Predictor]

I have never used the DOM. I made over 60% last year with a minimal DD (hypothetical) trading the futures. I have subscribers who take my signals with real contracts and are profitable. I do think the DOM might provide some edge. However it will likely require programming skills and possible co-location. I watched a webinar from CQG and the tools that the little guys like us are up against will make it very hard. Take a look at my Price Driver vs Liquidity Provider article here for some good ideas. Basically, all trades can be broken down into drives or liquidity provisions.

I've read tape for 5-6 years. It is very hard to learn to read tape and your chance of success is very low.. without knowing what to look for. It is unlikely you will learn by just watching tape. In fact, I watch it for 3-4 years but my skills were still rudimentary compared to what they are today.

I'm undecided how much of an edge order flow is, however. I'm not convinced its enough an "edge" by itself for the futures market. The futures game tends to reward in proportion to skillful risk taken. I do offer some tape reading/order flow materials at my website. I'm not sure why you are looking at a DOM if you have foot print/market delta information(?) I use a completely unique method which enabled me to take my tape reading skills to a completely new level.

My recommendation would be don't get tunnel vision. I speak to a lot of traders, many of whom are tape readers but they don't understand the whole game. This puts them at a significant disadvantage. If you're not consistently profitable.. I wouldn't even bother spread betting at $1 per point.. One thing you can do that I recommend is I recommend you start with say a reasonable SIM account like 30k give yourself a max loss limit per of say 1.5k/day and "trade" 24/7. I did a similar activity and it improved my overall trading. You can't trade this way with real money unless you want to lose it all but you will learn a lot.

I want to be clear about one thing. I think you are headed down wrong path with focusing on the DOM. I think order book edges are one avenue to explore with programming but I don't think you will be able to read that. Even if you found an edge, you will still have to get your order into the market! It is not even possible to read all the information in time&sales. This is where I made my break through was understanding how to really read tape.

Good luck!
----------

Curtis
http://themarketpredictor.com

[Marsupilami]

I would focus on studying price action first, not on reading the DOM.

If you can put on a trade at the weekly high/low, at an important support or resistance level, the chances of a bigger move are much higher than if you take a trade in range bound choppy market where the DOM gives you one long and short setup after another, each reversing after a few ticks.

I don't look at the DOM at all since I trade FX so I might undervalue it's importance. Just wanted to let you know that you can trade very well without looking at it.

[lastninja2]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Appreciate that.

1) I believe spread betting is generally a mugs game/hope I didn't give the impression that I think otherwise. Nevertheless I find it serves as a useful training tool --- if you can profit despite the stupid 2+ point spreads on EURO 50, you can profit on the real market; FESX.

2) I also realise there are many ways to skin a cat, so to speak, and if DOM-watching is one, it is only one of many.

3) It is apparent that there aren't any dedicated DOM-watchers around LT. When the public domain don't give much credence to an idea, I am encouraged to some extent. Having said that, if there are any DOM-watchers lurking, feel free to share your story... I'd very much like to hear it.

4) I'll keep staring at the DOM, and not a damn thing else.

[clmacdougall]

Originally Posted by lastninja2 »

Hi,

Just felt like introducing myself to the TL crew


Had half a mind to give an in-depth review of my life over the last 6 months or so, but instead I'll just cut right to the chase. Can give more details later if there's interest.

July 2011: Quit job with 20k GBP. Tending bars on the side now.

August 2011 - Present: Have been watching FESX, primarily DOM, but occasionally mixing it up with some charts and/or an indicator or two.

P/L 2011: Lost about 34EUR via TT/Velocity Futures. Clearly don't know what I'm doing.

P/L 2012: Lost about 30GBP via CMC Market Spread Betting Platform
[Started executing £1/point bets on 'EURO50'. At least this way I can get stuck in without blasting through my 20k on the real FESX market]

Getting profitable with one lot is proving difficult, as I expected it to be. Nevertheless I'll keep staring at the DOM until it starts to make sense to me.

Here's the meat of the thread. A few private videos I made with Camtasia, and uploaded to Youtube. Gives you some insight in to what I'm up to...


2011 November 21st: FESX going long, losing 1 tick.
2011 November 21st: FESX going long, losing 1 tick. - YouTube


2011 November 22nd: FESX afternoon. When will the market reverse from day-low?
2011 November 22nd: FESX afternoon. When will the market reverse from day-low? - YouTube


2011 December 12th. Classic "Offer, to Buy" action. FESX.
2011 December 12th. Classic "Offer, to Buy" action. FESX. - YouTube


2011 December 13th. The Blue-Red Shift
2011 December 13th. The Blue-Red Shift - YouTube


2011 November 25th. Instances of OFFERING, TO BUY. FESX Morning Phase 1.
2011 November 25th. Instances of OFFERING, TO BUY. FESX Morning Phase 1. - YouTube

FWIW the best two pieces of advice I can give to any aspiring Futures Trader would be to
a) Enable trade sounds (bleeps) on MD_Trader if you use it [really get immersed in the action]
b) Assuming you aren't scalping for only the next couple of ticks [and frankly, I don't even know what my style is yet, so I can't say if this applies to myself], execute your trades on an equivalent spread betting product, at £1/point, but taking your entry and exit queues from the 'real' market, e.g. FESX as displayed on MD_Trader. Provokes an emotional response, but doesn't really hurt you if it goes wrong.

Always nice to hear words of encouragement from experienced guys who have walked a similar path [...to riches]......

Get your old job back.
Learn on the side.
The process will take years, not meaning to discourage you,only to help you make some good decisions. You are not alone in your experience so please take the advice.