[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by dryfterwylde;

Hey Ingot,

I have been a lurker in this forum for quite awhile, though after reading this post I feel the overwhelming urge to comment this time!

WELL SAID....believe it or not I think this post will help my trading. It’s almost like on some unconscious level we are all looking for an excuse outside ourselves to blame for our lack of achievements, whether in trading or life...like we are looking for someone to save us. I think the sooner you realize no one is coming to your rescue and that YOU are responsible for any and all of your results, the sooner you can take real, actionable steps towards making your goals come to realization.

Imagine if in the armed forces of any country just told the troops..."ok guys, new training program in from the brass...rather then eat mud, dig trenches and run PT and work till we drop everyday, we are going to become better soldiers by talking about the lack of love we received as children and how it might affect our ability to become better warriors for the next few months, then its off to the frontlines with our new found knowledge, the enemy will fear us for sure!!......."

While I do believe psychology has its place, it is no replacement for the willingness to stare deep into yourself to find the real problem and be willing to go up, over or right through the problem by putting the work in.

Anyways, well said man. Good no nonsense post.

Thank you for your kind words, Dryfter. It occurred to me that I might be coming across as a bit arrogant when I say things a little emphatically, and use phrases like “you have to …” but I want readers to understand that these are generalisations, and not in any way intended as a personal rebuttal of the statements they make.

I appreciate that this is a great forum, where people are expressing good things in a supportive atmosphere.

Your analogy about Army Training is spot on mate – we as traders, really ARE in a war situation, where we absolutely MUST apply the R-U-L-E-S, or perish.

That is the problem – many do NOT appreciate that risk – the failure to DEFEND by correct application of the RULES, is NOT someone else’s responsibility or fault. The responsibility rests 100% with the person who presses the mouse-click. Not his coach, mentor, or the person who ran the seminar, or who wrote the book.

Cheers – and good trading.

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by simonyadig »

Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle?

While you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot.

It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am, but had I had a coach or mentor to help, it would have made things go a bit smoother at times.

I have been helping many people learn to trade, and there is one in particular who at 18 months is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at that time. He picks my brain and applies that to his experiences, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't be at the same point without my assistance. My point isn't toot my horn, it's to say that there is benefit to be had from some of the things you mentioned. I read Van Tharps book, and while it didn't revolutionize my trading, it did get me to think about some very important things and in the end, I'd say that it was well worth the 40 bucks or whatever.

Thanks Simon – I do accept what you are saying, and in fact I do see the things I am bagging as a part of the puzzle. But only as part of the puzzle – they are NOWHERE near the SOLUTION.

What I am trying to do is define the problem, and that is that there is an entire industry that sucks the blood from traders, as it purports to hold their hands … for the price of a book … Seminar … Course … and so on.

And I lament loudly that NONE of these things really is of ANY benefit to a trader who just wants someone to hold their hand.

Now please do NOT take this the wrong way – I am NOT against personal mentorship, or personal coaching. What I am against is an industry which is supposed to be changing the way traders approach trading, with the promise of a breakthrough, yet the perpetual result is only more of the same.

I believe there IS good material “out there” but it is NOT accessible to “ordinary” retail traders. And as much as Professionals and Authors want to promote their methods and their success rates through “testimonials” the truth of the matter is that right here on this forum we have perhaps 100 traders (think of a number and double it ) who are also crying out for some one to be REAL with them - someone to cut to the chase and debunk the BS that is put out ad nauseum.

Your own experience as a teacher of other traders (and I sincerely applaud your goodwill in doing that) illustrates exactly what I am saying.: that only those who have no other vested interest than the advancement of their protégé will be divulging much of applicable use to anyone.

There are those who churn “market-speak” for its own sake, and make a very good living off the back of struggling traders who seek out their services. In the end, such traders risk finding themselves many thousands of dollars lighter in the hip-pocket, but really still clueless about why their account is still static or falling.

I doubt ANY trader will ever find success in this field, without having a structured approach as mentioned earlier, and the inner DRIVE and DESIRE to crash … or crash through.
If you read Wikipedia and search for “Battle of Fýrisvellir”, read further on Styrbjörn, who burned his ships to force his men to fight to the end. While this stuff my or may not be myth – the anecdote does have an application in trading. The lesson is that is you wish to succeed, you have to be so committed, that you will do whatever is necessary to achieve that.

Simon, I am not attempting to discount what you are saying – I sincerely support your view. But you said yourself, that " ... that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am ... "

And that is my point - YOU did it YOURSELF after YOU had been through your rough patch. No one held your hand, as much as you might have cried out for that help.

Success can and does rest on the many steps and “aha!” moments that come to us in our search for answers. But my contention is that is will not depend on the multi-thousand-dollar course or weekend events, or sessions with someone who is attempting to surgically excise the “please-mother-me” emotional ties that prevent advancement, and independent responsibility for action. The emotions will not heal until the trader wants them to, and that point will not be reached until they cry: “Enough!”

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by Rande Howell;

Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

This is at the heart of my lament about the Coaching industry.

Originally Posted by Rande Howell;

As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances, you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world.

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. It is the habits of the heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

Now we are on common ground - the DESIRE to change MUST be an EMOTIONAL one - driven by a need to remove the pain of recurring negative outcomes.

Originally Posted by Rande Howell;

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher.

This is a very delicate moment, Rande. You are asking your readers to believe that "finding good mentors ... has a cost."

You do not define what a "good mentor" is, or how to locate one, other than "discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher." The problem is now put back on to the trader to decide "with discernment" between what is "hype" and what is "TRUTH".

As stated several times now, the problem with the industry, of which your branch is a central cog, is that there is ONLY hype. There are NO results that speak for the ability of the coach, other than the testimonials offered on the website of the coach. Self-testimony is of what value? Traders continue to stall-out and crash, regardless of the course or the money paid.

You mention " Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential" as a statement of fact - please allow me to disagree most emphatically with that. I do not see that a trader needs to "Pay now or pay later".

Rather, my vehement assertion would have to agree with your earlier comment:

"The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world."

Please note that this change does not need to involve the exchange of dollars - a simple cop-out to hide the fact that the work must be done WITHIN.

When a trader thinks that an expensive course is going to be an effective substitute for the work that can only be commenced when he is at the end of an EMOTIONAL tether, then that course is a waste of time before he even commences. And he might as well donate the money to a charity.

Most times the trader is not even aware of what is needed, and does not recognise that he has to be emotionally READY to begin the process of cutting the umbilical, and simply growing up, taking responsibility for getting the Trading Strategy prepared, and just doing it responsibly.

For a Coach/mentor to take on a student before ascertaining emotional readiness, is fraud. Plain and simple, because the Coach should know whether progress is going to be made or not, by the demeanour of the student. I do not suggest that this situation applies to your own courses - I believe not, since you are a Psychologist. But I do believe many coaches are aware that their students are mere fodder for the cannons.

Originally Posted by Rande Howell;

This is why I offer free consults.

I was unaware from a reading of your site, that you do offer these ... and I applaud you for that.

At which stage are these "free consults" applicable ... before the commitment to commence a course ... or after the student has completed a section of a course for which they have already paid something?

Originally Posted by Rande Howell;

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change

I have no issue with that at all - but what brings the student to that point?

I contend that NO COURSE or COUNSELLING can make a student ready for something, for which they are currently emotionally unprepared. The studentMUST be at a crisis point within before any course, book, seminar and so on will transmit ANY knowledge or behaviour change.

The above are just my views. I have been involved in raising children, and caring for prison inmates, whose only desire in life is to manipulate their way through the day. The desire to manipulate is even stronger than the desire for freedom. Indeed, many inmates do not desire freedom as a primary goal. Rather, it is status and success in manipulation that they get off on.

Traders who have not made the "bid for freedom" are still in the "manipulative phase" of their growth as a trader, and retain a desire for "mothering-and-hand-holding" as opposed to tackling the problem at its root, and getting off their derrieres and responsibly working on a plan.

[simonyadig]

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

Simon, I am not attempting to discount what you are saying – I sincerely support your view. But you said yourself, that " ... that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am ... "

And that is my point - YOU did it YOURSELF after YOU had been through your rough patch. No one held your hand, as much as you might have cried out for that help.

Success can and does rest on the many steps and “aha!” moments that come to us in our search for answers. But my contention is that is will not depend on the multi-thousand-dollar course or weekend events, or sessions with someone who is attempting to surgically excise the “please-mother-me” emotional ties that prevent advancement, and independent responsibility for action. The emotions will not heal until the trader wants them to, and that point will not be reached until they cry: “Enough!”

I was probably picking at straws because I completely agree with this point. Ultimately success comes from your own experience and perseverance to gain more and more experience. I'll freely admit that it's all my mistakes that have made me the trader I am. I

[SIUYA]

its been said before....
we all get what we want out of the markets.

substitute dieting for trading......thats an interesting industry.
Being fat and obese is not a medical problem (with rare exceptions)....its not a disease. its a lack of self disclipline and understanding the simple equation of energy in = energy out + fat storage.
Some people need help, but the diet wont help them, its the change in mindset, and its usually mamas cooking that can start the problem

I like the idea Ingot, and I too have similar sentiments....however I will say people do change over time in the natural course of living. So always questioning and re testing ideas, re reading books, forums etc; is fine. No one ever died from getting an education. Some times a gem of an idea just seemed like a line in a book when I read it a few years ago, often the small forgotten reminders can help get a ship back on course.

The few things I have seen all sucessful traders have in common are......a passion for the markets...(.and not a theoretical one), a strong work ethic to follow the passion (these guys are not part time traders) and an ability to be flexible, constantly questioning themselves, their ideas and their positions....this helps them go from long to short, to cut losses, to pyramid, to not fall in love with positions etc.
These I dont believe can be taught.

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

its been said before....
we all get what we want out of the markets.

I like the idea Ingot, and I too have similar sentiments....however I will say people do change over time in the natural course of living. So always questioning and re testing ideas, re reading books, forums etc; is fine. No one ever died from getting an education. Some times a gem of an idea just seemed like a line in a book when I read it a few years ago, often the small forgotten reminders can help get a ship back on course.

The few things I have seen all successful traders have in common are......
a passion for the markets...(.and not a theoretical one),
a strong work ethic to follow the passion (these guys are not part time traders) and
an ability to be flexible, constantly questioning themselves, their ideas and their positions....
this helps them go from long to short, to cut losses, to pyramid, to not fall in love with positions etc.

These I don't believe can be taught.

Siuya

This is the kind of rare insight that must "grow" on a trader, or else he must sit down beside a benevolent trader who already understand the gyrations of the markets, and if he is hungry, he will feed from it.

In my own situation, I am a one-show-pony with my trading.

I have a plan and I have a strategy to execute that plan. Doesn't always come together but there is a little box in my written plan that says "set Stop Loss at x times ATR when trading the XXX.XXX in the X time frame". All I do is take my setups - time after time - banging away at the market every time it is there. It works, and that's that.

All my job is, is to manage the trades then.
A better trader might still be in the market while I am out (waiting for another setup).

Eventually I will "get it" too, but the "edge" in trading isn't taught in a book. It will come through screen time and paying attention.

5,000,000 traders, from Indonesia to India, China to the USA, already have the same edge from the text-book. I have to be ahead of them if I am trying to take something off the table.

Only the points you mentioned as attributes of Pro Traders have a chance of delivering the edge ... passion, work ethic, flexibility, questioning mind. These should be the natural tools of the trading mind. And the benefits of "being" this type of trader is that when the opportunity comes to grasp something new, you will be ready emotionally, because you are hungry for it.

Less than this and you might as well read books all day, as attempt to trade.

The dog just won't hunt unless he's hungry.

[Rande Howell]

Originally Posted by simonyadig »

Ok, but my point simply is that there are books/coaches/courses out there that can help you along your path. Both you and the original poster act like they need to be all or nothing, but that's not the case. Most everything you say is true and same with the OP, but in the end both of you are making it sound like there's no benefit to some of these books and whatnot (I'm referring to the good ones). I've been a profitable trader for 4 years now and it's been my sole income. Did I get there because of the books and courses I took? Nope. Did they help me out? Yes, absolutely. That's my point. If someone says Tharps book alone will make you a great trader, they're wrong. If someone says it's worthless and won't help anyone out at all, they're also wrong.

Being that I have a book and offer programs for training the brain/mind for trading, I certainly in favor of education. The point I'm trying to make is that understanding our biology's influence (and how to work with it) on pattern and mind moves change from short term to long term more effectively. I know people who traded for 10 years with good head knowledge of their methodology but didn't make much progress until they really started changing belief system. I know trader who, in 2 years, were strongly profitable because they had the wisdom to know that body and mind had to be trained and developed from an emotional point of view.

Rande Howell

[fajim2004]

Rande,

Perhaps you could enlighten all of us here about some of the beliefs that are sabotaging
a lot of us traders. On the surface excecuting a simple written trade plan should not be
difficult,yet many of us are unable too do so.




Being that I have a book and offer programs for training the brain/mind for trading, I certainly in favor of education. The point I'm trying to make is that understanding our biology's influence (and how to work with it) on pattern and mind moves change from short term to long term more effectively. I know people who traded for 10 years with good head knowledge of their methodology but didn't make much progress until they really started changing belief system. I know trader who, in 2 years, were strongly profitable because they had the wisdom to know that body and mind had to be trained and developed from an emotional point of view.

Rande Howell