Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

butch1130

Identify Larger Traders

Recommended Posts

I recently read a post by Dr. Brett about Median Volume levels per 30 min period. The idea was that when the volume was significantly above the median for that period, larger players were likely involved in the market at that time.

 

It got me thinking on how else to identify larger players in the ES market.

 

Can anyone share things they use that they feel identifies the larger traders?

 

I have Market Delta and intend to try and use some of their tools to help answer this question.

 

Thanks very much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Market Delta you can filter out lot sizes using the Volume Breakdown indicator. You can use this to see if the big lots > 100 > 200 are are more aggressive on the bid or ask...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I recently read a post by Dr. Brett about Median Volume levels per 30 min period. The idea was that when the volume was significantly above the median for that period, larger players were likely involved in the market at that time.

 

It got me thinking on how else to identify larger players in the ES market.

 

Can anyone share things they use that they feel identifies the larger traders?

 

I have Market Delta and intend to try and use some of their tools to help answer this question.

 

Thanks very much.

By far the most direct realtime method to track commercials activity (mainly position building inventory accumulation) is watching and then indexing Cumulative Delta Thresholds throughout the trade day. Tracking only increased overall volume activity above median levels can be deceiving. There may be order flow equilibrium withing increased overall volume rates, but the important item to track is the conviction within traded order flow....this is accomplished with Cumulative Delta.

 

I do not really care how much overall volume trades most times, no I just want to know the conviction within the traded order flow. I want to know who is in control of the volume flow as parsed through Cumulative Delta. When a new high or a new low for the day is tested I want realtime indications of who controls the order flow, buyers or sellers. When a tracked zone of resting inventory support/resistance is tested intraday, I want to know what is the realtime demand at that level.

 

I have in the past filtered order flow trade size for tracking demand at various zones of price, but I have found tracking all traded order flow position size combined works just perfect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi AMT,

 

I didn't know you were also here on TL - welcome. I've read pretty near every post of yours on that other forum (except the political ones :) ) and I still don't understand exactly what you mean. Perhaps you can elaborate on this with something more visual....

 

I find in my own use of trying to replicate what you describe above has been terrible. I often think that I've aligned myself with the order flow, only to get hammered seconds later. Maybe we can post some examples back and forth - I can even post some my HSI blunders....

 

With kind regards,

MK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi AMT,

 

I didn't know you were also here on TL - welcome. I've read pretty near every post of yours on that other forum (except the political ones :) ) and I still don't understand exactly what you mean. Perhaps you can elaborate on this with something more visual....

 

I find in my own use of trying to replicate what you describe above has been terrible. I often think that I've aligned myself with the order flow, only to get hammered seconds later. Maybe we can post some examples back and forth - I can even post some my HSI blunders....

 

With kind regards,

MK

 

Hello Sir! WOW...that reminds me....I owe you an email response from the other day!!!

 

I think the best way I can explain the inventory accumulation game is in a live chat format, so as you ask questions I can explain right away in a more efficient manner. I will send you some information on what day will work best for me to set this up with you! Look for an email just after the close today and I will try and set something up for this week. :thumbs up:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BTW, the commercials I have been tracking these past weeks who have been building the 30,000 contracts SHORT in the ES sure paid themselves well today! ;) Oh how I love this game! :)

I watched some of your videos on your site, very interesting, when do you start the cumulation period, and I am using the indicator you pointed out to me in Ninja Trader which needs to be running to track the contracts, does Investor R/T store the cumulated # of contracts?

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like Fulcrumtrader (AMT4SWA) is marketing his services on this forum. Those who are interested should search for "Inventory Grab Alert 4"

"Inventory Grab Alert 4" - Google Search

 

On ET threadid=162563&perpage=6&pagenumber=397 there should be a doc file that summarizes the trading style. You can decide if it suits you.

 

amt notes - cumulative volume delta.doc

amt notes - cumulative volume delta.doc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I watched some of your videos on your site, very interesting, when do you start the cumulation period, and I am using the indicator you pointed out to me in Ninja Trader which needs to be running to track the contracts, does Investor R/T store the cumulated # of contracts?

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

I track the Cumulative Delta from the first day a contract trades going forward for my longer term CD tracking, but that is not really needed for those looking for basic intraday set-ups. I use Investor RT with DTN.IQ feed for my primary intraday Cumulative Delta tracking, and the historical bid/ask data goes back almost a month which is perfect for 95% of my needs. There is also some great new features ahead for Investor RT so I am looking forward to the expanded capabilities.

 

"Linn Software is also working with Zen-Fire/Rithmic to enable Investor/RT clients who have a Zen-Fire/Rithmic brokerage account to trade directly from Investor/RT."

 

Investor/RT - The Trader's Ultimate Tool Box - What's New in 10.0

 

:cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems like Fulcrumtrader (AMT4SWA) is marketing his services on this forum. Those who are interested should search for "Inventory Grab Alert 4"

"Inventory Grab Alert 4" - Google Search

 

On ET threadid=162563&perpage=6&pagenumber=397 there should be a doc file that summarizes the trading style. You can decide if it suits you.

 

amt notes - cumulative volume delta.doc

Talking about how to use Cumulative Delta is not marketing, but at least now someone in the futures trading community is making traders aware of the possibilities! Cumulative Delta is a very good parsed volume study and it shocks me how few know how to use it.....oh well.

Edited by FulcrumTrader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Talking about how to use Cumulative Delta is not marketing, but at least now someone in the futures trading community is making traders aware of the possibilities! Cumulative Delta is a very good parsed volume study and it shocks me how few know how to use it.....oh well.

 

 

Can you give a critique on this Cumulative Delta indicator?

How would you improve it?

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/56/volume-splitter-5824-5.html#post66247

post #180

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tams,

 

So far I have never seen an actual working Cumulative Delta candlestick study in TS live (for the 6 years I have tracked and traded with Cumulative Delta). I would really need to watch the indicator live for a while (hour or two) to come to a proper conclusion. For Tradestation, the Cumulative Delta candlestick study set up the way I use it with Investor RT is kind of like UFO's....I know they are out there but I have not yet been offered a ride!

 

I myself would LOVE to have a proper CD candlestick study for TS so if someone has one that works that would be GREAT! Also, to properly track CD you really need the candlestick format with multiple days of accumulated plotting....that is a must in my book!

 

BTW, an ideal set up would be Zenfire or DTN.IQ feed pumped into TS with a proper CD candlestick study that can look back at least 30 days of bid/ask data!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not completely accurate none of the TS implementations are due to the data handling. TS handles best bid and best ask asynchronously. It may be possible by using 3 data Plots one assigned to the instruments bid one to the ask and one to the last. You would need to ask TS whether price change 'events' of bid and ask are handles sycronously they look like they might be if you simply watch them on a chart.

 

On the merit of Fulcrums approach does it not assume that trader acumuluate by buying aggresively? Isn't this the opposite to what occurs? When accumulating a large position you would buy passively at the bottom of the range and sell aggressively at the top (to keep price down).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is not completely accurate none of the TS implementations are due to the data handling. TS handles best bid and best ask asynchronously. It may be possible by using 3 data Plots one assigned to the instruments bid one to the ask and one to the last. You would need to ask TS whether price change 'events' of bid and ask are handles sycronously they look like they might be if you simply watch them on a chart.

 

On the merit of Fulcrums approach does it not assume that trader acumuluate by buying aggresively? Isn't this the opposite to what occurs? When accumulating a large position you would buy passively at the bottom of the range and sell aggressively at the top (to keep price down).

Accumulation of held resting inventory by commercials has the same behaviors at zones of price that become support in the market or at zones of price that become resistance. Commercials seem to handle the building resting inventory independently from their other trades around the range of price that contains the zone of price which is the cost basis for the held main position (and this made sense when I first started tracking the Delta Zones of resting inventory years ago.....the commercials are made up of separate groups all doing about the same thing at about the same time as they accumulate positions in the same fashion but independent of each other).

 

There are definite biases of trade activity in the order flow as these positions are developed over multi-day or multi-week periods of time prior to the enabled breakout move of price AWAY from their held position cost basis (of course the eventual price move is in their intended trade direction....like we just had yesterday, very common enabled move of price in their intended trade direction). Another continuing pattern which almost seemed counter intuitive at first, but then made sense over time was how commercials will ALLOW price stretch away from the overall cost basis of their held inventory. After looking at this activity over and over again and thinking about Auction Market Theory it did eventually make total sense to me.

 

Commercials can't improve the cost basis of a large held position without the rotations of price away from their held position to ADD inventory with "price improvement". As price is then driven back to the mean of the cost basis and through into the intended direction of their held position, they can then thin out positions previously entered at pricing level less advantages to the remaining held inventory. The commercials allow price to continually rotate around the cost basis of their held positions, as they make some profits on less beneficial positions covered after they have added new inventory beneficial to the held position....this is the behavior of the position building phase prior to the enabled driving of price away from the held position for the big score.

 

I do know exactly how counter intuitive a lot of this commercial activity seems at first, but in conclusion let's just say the commercials are very active in the realm of going forward price activity once they start building large resting inventory....;) Oh, and you will not find any of this type of market dynamics information in any trade books like "Mastering the Trade"......LOL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Fulcrum, good post

re

...how counter intuitive a lot of this commercial activity seems at first

The real trick is that sometimes it is just intuitive and sometimes it's counter intuitive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tams,

 

So far I have never seen an actual working Cumulative Delta candlestick study in TS live (for the 6 years I have tracked and traded with Cumulative Delta). I would really need to watch the indicator live for a while (hour or two) to come to a proper conclusion. For Tradestation, the Cumulative Delta candlestick study set up the way I use it with Investor RT is kind of like UFO's....I know they are out there but I have not yet been offered a ride!

 

I myself would LOVE to have a proper CD candlestick study for TS so if someone has one that works that would be GREAT! Also, to properly track CD you really need the candlestick format with multiple days of accumulated plotting....that is a must in my book!

 

BTW, an ideal set up would be Zenfire or DTN.IQ feed pumped into TS with a proper CD candlestick study that can look back at least 30 days of bid/ask data!

 

I hear yah, I've started working on it. No ETA on delivery though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • How's about other crypto exchanges? Are all they banned in your country or only Binance?
    • Be careful who you blame.   I can tell you one thing for sure.   Effective traders don’t blame others when things start to go wrong.   You can hang onto your tendency to play the victim, or the martyr… but if you want to achieve in trading, you have to be prepared to take responsibility.   People assign reasons to outcomes, whether based on internal or external factors.   When traders face losses, it's common for them to blame bad luck, poor advice, or other external factors, rather than reflecting on their own personal attributes like arrogance, fear, or greed.   This is a challenging lesson to grasp in your trading journey, but one that holds immense value.   This is called attribution theory. Taking responsibility for your actions is the key to improving your trading skills. Pause and ask yourself - What role did I play in my financial decisions?   After all, you were the one who listened to that source, and decided to act on that trade based on the rumour. Attributing results solely to external circumstances is what is known as having an ‘external locus of control’.   It's a concept coined by psychologist Julian Rotter in 1954. A trader with an external locus of control might say, "I made a profit because the markets are currently favourable."   Instead, strive to develop an "internal locus of control" and take ownership of your actions.   Assume that all trading results are within your realm of responsibility and actively seek ways to improve your own behaviour.   This is the fastest route to enhancing your trading abilities. A trader with an internal locus of control might proudly state, "My equity curve is rising because I am a disciplined trader who faithfully follows my trading plan." Author: Louise Bedford Source: https://www.tradinggame.com.au/
    • SELF IMPROVEMENT.   The whole self-help industry began when Dale Carnegie published How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936. Then came other classics like Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins toward the end of the century.   Today, teaching people how to improve themselves is a business. A pure ruthless business where some people sell utter bullshit.   There are broke Instagrammers and YouTubers with literally no solid background teaching men how to be attractive to women, how to begin a start-up, how to become successful — most of these guys speaking nothing more than hollow motivational words and cliche stuff. They waste your time. Some of these people who present themselves as hugely successful also give talks and write books.   There are so many books on financial advice, self-improvement, love, etc and some people actually try to read them. They are a waste of time, mostly.   When you start reading a dozen books on finance you realize that they all say the same stuff.   You are not going to live forever in the learning phase. Don't procrastinate by reading bull-shit or the same good knowledge in 10 books. What we ought to do is choose wisely.   Yes. A good book can change your life, given you do what it asks you to do.   All the books I have named up to now are worthy of reading. Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, Robert Greene — these guys are worthy of reading. These guys teach what others don't. Their books are unique and actually, come from relevant and successful people.   When Richard Branson writes a book about entrepreneurship, go read it. Every line in that book is said by one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time.   When a Chinese millionaire( he claims to be) Youtuber who releases a video titled “Why reading books keeps you broke” and a year later another one “My recommendation of books for grand success” you should be wise to tell him to jump from Victoria Falls.   These self-improvement gurus sell you delusions.   They say they have those little tricks that only they know that if you use, everything in your life will be perfect. Those little tricks. We are just “making of a to-do-list before sleeping” away from becoming the next Bill Gates.   There are no little tricks.   There is no success-mantra.   Self-improvement is a trap for 99% of the people. You can't do that unless you are very, very strong.   If you are looking for easy ways, you will only keep wasting your time forgetting that your time on this planet is limited, as alive humans that is.   Also, I feel that people who claim to read like a book a day or promote it are idiots. You retain nothing. When you do read a good book, you read slow, sometimes a whole paragraph, again and again, dwelling on it, trying to internalize its knowledge. You try to understand. You think. It takes time.   It's better to read a good book 10 times than 1000 stupid ones.   So be choosy. Read from the guys who actually know something, not some wannabe ‘influencers’.   Edit: Think And Grow Rich was written as a result of a project assigned to Napoleon Hill by Andrew Carnegie(the 2nd richest man in recent history). He was asked to study the most successful people on the planet and document which characteristics made them great. He did extensive work in studying hundreds of the most successful people of that time. The result was that little book.   Nowadays some people just study Instagram algorithms and think of themselves as a Dale Carnegie or Anthony Robbins. By Nupur Nishant, Quora Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/    
    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.