[StevenSJC]

I know it's probably sacrilege around here to insult the vaunted S&P e-mini but I'm willing to bet it blows up more traders than any futures market. More than any market I would bet outside of forex which typically pulls in the lowest common denominator (read: get rich quick crowd)

There was a really good article in this months S&C magazine that continues to demonstrate this point.

The S&P e-mini is hard to trade. You are competing against mega institutions and volume. It's very difficult at times to get a fill unless price moves through your price. It is quite subjective because your system might hit target but you won't so what do you do? I find it creates all kinds of questions and those freakin 0.25 ticks are ridiculous. I'm sure it's great for others but those type of ticks (instead of 0.10) are not great for us traders.

The magazine article made the point that sure, the S&P e-mini has great volumes. Incredible volumes. You could easily execute 50 contracts. Which makes me laugh since 98% of traders out there will be lucky to get to 2 contracts. It's like people wanting to make sure that the tax rates at the highest bracket are low because someday they'll be there. Yeah right. Who cares if this market can execute 50 contracts in a heartbeat. You'll never do it.

More important is the chart that showed Average Yearly Tick Movement across all the major index futures. Lowest rank? The S&P e-mini vs. the Dow, Nasdaq, Russell small and mid-cap.

When you factor in dollar value so average annual dollar movement the Russell e-Mini easily comes out on top? Lagging way behind? The S&P e-mini.

If more people would start trading the Russell vs. the S&P I guarantee failure rates while high, would be lower.

Trying to jump in and trade amongst the big boys in a market that really doesn't have great range, that forces a lot of subjectivity due to the 0.25 ticks, doesn't lead in any major category but volume which you'll never need or use to me is a just a lure for trading suckers.

I know the best of the best here on TL will disagree. And I'm not saying it cannot be traded successfully but if more traders getting going would not chase the crowd in the S&P you'd stand a much better chance.

[Tams]

trading is like playing golf
you do your own thing, and the big boys do their own thing
you play against yourself, not anybody else
the score are yours, and yours alone
the mistake are yours, and yours alone
you are your own best friend, and worst enemy.
you can blame it on the club,
you can blame it on the ball,
but ultimately... who cares, but yourself.

[MightyMouse]

It seems like you know a lot about es and given what you know about es, you should be able to take that knowledge and trade it. If it means that the best you can do is not trade it, then so be it. That would be very valuable information.

[TheNegotiator]

There are probably way more traders who are also successful trading the E-mini S&P500 too. There are just way more traders in it period. If you don't like it, that's fine too. Just find a product which you 'like' and trade it.

[Tradewinds]

Originally Posted by StevenSJC »

I know it's probably sacrilege around here to insult the vaunted S&P e-mini but . . . .
The S&P e-mini is hard to trade. . . . . It's very difficult at times to get a fill unless price moves through your price.

You are absolutely right. I agree with you. I don't care if you insult the S&P e-mini. It is kind of strange that some people rush in to defend trading when someone vents their frustrations. Does the market need defending? Is the market such a delicate, kind and gentle soul that it needs to be defended by people? I don't think so.

And then there are those people who will offer you their advice, because out of the goodness of their heart, they just want to help you. Yah! Right. . . . Like trading is a goodwill industry full of people just trying to help each other. I don't think so!

So why would anyone take it personally if someone else criticizes the market or the trading industry? Why would they take it personally?

[StevenSJC]

Yes very bizarre comments I must say.

It's as if I offended somebodies child

I'm just saying, make the case why traders who come into the emini futures world should trade the ES. Besides the fact that everyone seems to do it - and the rooms/signal services all seem to cater to it - because that's where the crowd goes.

I think if I can get someone to read this who is just starting out to NOT jump head over heels into the ES first it's worth the battering I'm sure I will take.

Regardless, still waiting to hear why the ES is factually superior to other choices.

[Tams]

I don't think everyone is doing it
I know lots of people who trade other instruments
but the newbies seems to be attracted to it without question

about your comment that the volume is high...
sure it is high, but bear in mind that a lot of the volumes are ins-and-outs with nothing more than a tick's worth of gain or loss. A lot of the volume are not from traders, but from hedgers. They couldn't care less if the market is going up or down, they are only looking at the differentials.

[TheDude]

I wouldnt look at a market based on $ range in a day. A traders first priority should be not to lose money. The greedy look first at how much they can make (thus your FX comment which I agree with). Therefore, you should be looking (imo) to make regular, consistent amounts of money. Then scale up in size.

The good thing about ES is that it has less tendency to go careering through levels, only to reverse on a dime like ES, CL, 6E do. It does happen sometimes of course, and indeed these moves are heaven for some anyway - free money if you know whats happening.

This means ES can be used as a benchmark to see if the other contract (ER, YM. NQ etc) is real or not.

Just some thoughts.

Generally, 'the pro's' tend to spread es against something similar - ym, nq, cash, spy, big s&p etc. in fact, the reason es has .25 tics was to create an arb between sp & es.

i agree with the original premise. new traders should trade ags or FI IMO.