Taking the Blinders Off the Trading Mind

[johnw 10]

ADD and ADHD is a massively over dx'ed condition. The distraction factor is actually co-morbid with anxiety and is often misdx'ed. When I was managing populations of youth and adolesence, very few of the clients actually were organically based ADHD, though they were dx'ed. Most were anxiety where distraction was the common factor. Most school systems and mental health organizations jump on the diagnostic criterion of ADHD, particularly with boys, because it is easy.

 

If you take a form of speed and it slows your sensation of time down, you can be sure you are dealing with organic ADHD. If you take a form of speed and it accelerates your sense of time, you are most likely looking at anxiety and distraction as a way of dealing with the stressor.

 

All grown up, it shows up in trading still misunderstood. This is common. See it everyday.

 

Rande Howell

 

thank you for the explanation Rande.

I have often pondered on the validity of the ADHD dx ... it appears to me that it is often paraded as a 'badge of honour' or excuse, rather than a valid condition.

 

However in this upside down world of ours where self pity and false confessions are deemed to be acceptable, whereas bravery and self reliance are to be ignored or scorned,

why am I not surprised.

[zdo 20]

thank you for the explanation Rande.

pondered on the validity of the ADHD dx ... often paraded as a 'badge of honour' or excuse, rather than a valid condition...self pity ...false confessions...

 

Yep, as Rande discussed, the educational / enculturational system found a ready label in ADHD for all their efforts to turn the reactive kids (and 'normal' reactive episodes) into responsive kids (and 'normal' stable responsive states).

 

Traders would be better off dropping all the ‘child centered’ stuff about it and searching out the related natural strengths within that are seeking expression – the primary one being to reconnect with those aspects of self where ‘circumstances’ really aren’t the driving force in life, etc.

[johnw 10]

Yep, as Rande discussed, the educational / enculturational system found a ready label in ADHD for all their efforts to turn the reactive kids (and 'normal' reactive episodes) into responsive kids (and 'normal' stable responsive states).

 

Traders would be better off dropping all the ‘child centered’ stuff about it and searching out the related natural strengths within that are seeking expression – the primary one being to reconnect with those aspects of self where ‘circumstances’ really aren’t the driving force in life, etc.

 

 

Good heavens zdo, what every are you thinking of.

 

Your suggestion would lead to The Individual taking responsibility for their actions and therefore control of their lives.... it would lead to self reliance, happiness and a sense of self fulfillment ... if enough people followed your lead it could result in creating the tipping point of the imbalance that plagues the Human Race.

 

No No No this will never do ... as the English would say ' you must be barking mad' for even entertaining such a silly notion.

Edited January 26, 2012 by johnw

[Rande Howell 10]

thank you for the explanation Rande.

I have often pondered on the validity of the ADHD dx ... it appears to me that it is often paraded as a 'badge of honour' or excuse, rather than a valid condition.

 

However in this upside down world of ours where self pity and false confessions are deemed to be acceptable, whereas bravery and self reliance are to be ignored or scorned,

why am I not surprised.

 

Please understand the ADD/ADHD condition is real and is organically based. If you have seen a motor that won't stop until medicated, you will know ADHD. It will show up as 1-2% of a population though, so it's rare. Anxiety is adaptive based often with a predisposition toward avoidance and is common. Social, attachment, and medical histories need to be part of dx when distraction is the major element. Understanding the source of the distraction is much more through then. Of course, you're looking at a guy who got out of the mental health business because I did not see the level of hope in the system to bring about change.

 

When you are looking at the dx criterion that drug manufacturers use to spot the symptoms (they hand them out to anyone who will take them), it is no small wonder so many of our kids are medicated inappropriately. Most school systems have a built in bias toward the use of medication to manage impulsivity and distraction. Pretty much, boys, by their very nature, get dx'ed and medicated to force them into an educational system much better suited to educate girls. That's what we have here in Charlotte, NC. My adult son was very active and I can't tell you how many footballs I threw him (go long son) to regulate his level of activity. He didn't get to watch TV and eat junk -- and form those habits. He still has distraction problems but has the training and habits to manage. And he has produced a satisfying adult life.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Yep, as Rande discussed, the educational / enculturational system found a ready label in ADHD for all their efforts to turn the reactive kids (and 'normal' reactive episodes) into responsive kids (and 'normal' stable responsive states).

 

Traders would be better off dropping all the ‘child centered’ stuff about it and searching out the related natural strengths within that are seeking expression – the primary one being to reconnect with those aspects of self where ‘circumstances’ really aren’t the driving force in life, etc.

 

I call this waking up from self deception. Trading is a great place to force the issue. The struggle is within the self rather than outside the self.

 

Rande

[zdo 20]

Has anyone read that Rande Howell article Taking the Bleeders Off the Trading Mind . ?

It's out there on this forum somewhere.

[johnw 10]

I call this waking up from self deception. Trading is a great place to force the issue. The struggle is within the self rather than outside the self.

 

Rande

 

Ahhh! .. the old chestnut 'self deception' ... I can never figure out whether self deception is the same as self delusion ... somehow I think it starts with self deception and then grows into self delusion, but maybe I have it wrong.

 

But then again I spent six weeks in the company of dolphins a few months ago and it made me ponder on the thought that humans are the only species to have created a God and then continue to live their lives as though God does not exist.

[zdo 20]

 

Ha! Ha! Very funny. More Marin Heidegger meets neurobiology of emotion and meaning. I studied under one of his students in the 80's. Getting meaning planted into biology came later. You know, I really must find out what she teaches. Certainly the emphasis on biology is there. I get that about Van also. There it's the emphasis on the devine.

 

Rande

 

Rande, not quite sure why you brought Heidegger into this?

We’d have to fly the flack of forgiving him for voting for Hitler, and that would lead to dealing with forgiving all the ‘normal’ Germs who voted for Hitler… and that would lead to needing to ‘forgiving’ all the normal americans who voted for Obama…

Can’t we just stay with Denise? Denise...

 

with zero response time ,

 

zdo

 

PS ...btw re "Your brain, unless you significantly redevelop it..." What does that mean? It was a serious question

:helloooo:

[Rande Howell 10]

[quote

PS ...btw re "Your brain, unless you significantly redevelop it..." What does that mean? It was a serious question

:helloooo:

 

 

 

Brain adapts "us" in the form of pattern based beliefs into creatures who anticipate the future based on experience in the past. This becomes familiar pattern and shapes our sense of identity. When we "redevelop" the brain, we are sitting in the discomfort of old memories that generated historical pattern, and bringing into the discomfort self compassion for the arrested development (the historical dialog) that arose out of that adaptation. It is this self compassion that actually teases the old meaning of self associated with the adaptation so that it can be reformed into new, more life affirming, beliefs. This happens simultaneously on a biological, emotional, cognitive, (and I would say spiritual) basis. As we develop the capacity of the observer to become witness to our beliefs, we also devleop the capacity to embed new beliefs into the very substrate of the brain. This is actually the basis of the reactive attachment theories that I practiced in the 90's.

 

Is that far enough from Denise -- just feel the emotion and not act from it?

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

[quote

PS ...btw re "Your brain, unless you significantly redevelop it..." What does that mean? It was a serious question

:helloooo:

 

 

 

Brain adapts "us" in the form of pattern based beliefs into creatures who anticipate the future based on experience in the past. This becomes familiar pattern and shapes our sense of identity. When we "redevelop" the brain, we are sitting in the discomfort of old memories that generated historical pattern, and bringing into the discomfort self compassion for the arrested development (the historical dialog) that arose out of that adaptation. It is this self compassion that actually teases the old meaning of self associated with the adaptation so that it can be reformed into new, more life affirming, beliefs. This happens simultaneously on a biological, emotional, cognitive, (and I would say spiritual) basis. As we develop the capacity of the observer to become witness to our beliefs, we also devleop the capacity to embed new beliefs into the very substrate of the brain. This is actually the basis of the reactive attachment theories that I practiced in the 90's.

 

Is that far enough from Denise -- just feel the emotion and not act from it?

 

Rande Howell

 

screw Denise.....Rande - if I may - trying to translate this into English for those of us who only use one syllable words like, buy and sell, long and short.....is what you are saying basically.....?

 

our sense of identity is shaped by our past memories, and in order to change in built patterns of behaviour that stem from our past we need to view ourselves from a third persons point of view

and that third person (which of course is us) must view our past patterns of behavior in a compassionate way?

 

If so - and for continuing the discussion without getting sidetracked -

why is there the assumption that this is discomforting or that our beliefs are discomforting.....what if I quite like myself already? This does sound a little like the religious dogma of some groups that - you are flawed and the only way to salvation is through us.....

 

....additionally i thought it was well recognised that our memories are flawed, and therefore wouldn't our perceptions of ourselves be flawed as well to an extra degree (maybe two negatives make a positive )

 

To take this into a trading context - only really evidence based real time recordings - ie; via a journal would be required and appropriate to actually view what happens when we trade. Then to change this behavior that is unprofitable would not require all the self analysis and mindfulness. Rather it takes a simple more methodical approach of it "if hurts dont do it."

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande - if I may - trying to translate this into English for those of us who only use one syllable words like, buy and sell, long and short.....is what you are saying basically.....?

 

our sense of identity is shaped by our past memories, and in order to change in built patterns of behaviour that stem from our past we need to view ourselves from a third persons point of view

and that third person (which of course is us) must view our past patterns of behavior in a compassionate way?

 

If so - and for continuing the discussion without getting sidetracked -

why is there the assumption that this is discomforting or that our beliefs are discomforting.....what if I quite like myself already? This does sound a little like the religious dogma of some groups that - you are flawed and the only way to salvation is through us.....

 

....additionally i thought it was well recognised that our memories are flawed, and therefore wouldn't our perceptions of ourselves be flawed as well to an extra degree (maybe two negatives make a positive )

 

To take this into a trading context - only really evidence based real time recordings - ie; via a journal would be required and appropriate to actually view what happens when we trade. Then to change this behavior that is unprofitable would not require all the self analysis and mindfulness. Rather it takes a simple more methodical approach of it "if hurts dont do it."

 

SUIJA

 

When I watch a Zen Master do calligraphy, I marvel at how simple it appears to be. When I try it myself, the simplicity vanishes like mist in a barren desert. A lot of growth goes into making that moment happen. Same with trading.

 

I shoulda sent that privately to zdo since I believe it was specific to him. Mindfulness, or generating an Observer, is not like seeing things in third person. It is a sense of stepping back and recognizing that you (your awareness) are not your thoughts and beliefs. They simply occupy space as narratives in the mind that have taken over your life. It is in the freeing ourselves from our identification with them that memory and and self belief become fluid and malleable. And we can begin to influence what beliefs take hold and grow our futures.

 

If you like yourself already while in the midst of performing in uncertainty, then most certainly don't change. It is for those traders who don't like who they become as they embrace ambiguity and uncertainty of outcome that beliefs systems need to be examined and changed. Most traders have to really change perceptual maps before learning to trade well. Whether we like it or not, we trade our beliefs about our capacity to manage uncertainty. And if you likem, don't change them.

 

Some traders, either though natural affinity or desensitation over time look at charts, indicators, etc and "see" a world that leads them to trade effectively. It becomes habituated for them to see this way and they can't understand why other just don't see what is right in front of their eyes (remember our Zen Master). The Observer the trader is, in this case, as become fused with this way of seeing that it becomes the "correct" way of seeing. Truth is, it is only one way of seeing, albeit an effective one. Other less experienced traders, seeing from a different Observer, interprets the same information very differently. Changing beliefs is not like changing the clothes you wear. It is more like changing the life you live.

 

When I work with traders,they do keep journals of thoughts, emotions, breathing style, tension, and feeling states (I call them SMART logs) -- as they make trading decisions. Initially these are usually happening so fast that they are not noticed. But they are important treads of information. These become the indicators that lead to the belief system embedded in the body and brain (and from which the mind emerges). It is the belief system about their ability to manage uncertainty that is brought into play.

 

When triggered to uncertainty, the human brain is wired to go to fear. Discomfort, or disruption to standard familiar sensorial pattern, happens at the moments leading up to entry and as a trader manages the flux of the trade once he is in it. This is uncertainty. And many traders simply never had the psychological skills modeled to them to manage uncertainty. And to move to the next level, they are going to have to learn.

 

Discomfort is not pain to be avoided. It is information to be managed. The brain does not distinguish between psychologial discomfort and biological threat, and often biological interpretation of the brain overwhelms the mind's capacity to discern. Water boarding is a case in point. So, "if if hurts, don't do it" is not a good measure. Any action that takes the brain out of the comfort zone is going to produce discomfort or perceived pain. But to grow to new levels, you have to push through the discomfort (think about walking across a bed of live coals and not burning your feet or a neural psychologist teaching a chronic pain patient to interpret the neural signals differently so that it is not perceived as pain). Distinguishing between psychological discomfort and biological threat is what the trader learns to distinguish and manage.

 

At the core is the belief system that has become embedded into emtional response. And compassion has been found to be the salve that heals and transforms beliefs. From Jesus' healing through compassionate response to Buddhist's use of loving kindness to modern researchers, compassion has been found to be a powerful part of change. In trading, it might not be called compassion. It might be called the voice of encouragement or self soothing. It calms the fear so that a new way of acting in the face of fear of uncertainty becomes possible. In my work I teach traders to talk to themselves during moments of confusion in self soothing and encouraging ways -- rather than the beating self up way that is so common in an untrained mind.

 

If you are happy with yourself in the midst of trading, why in the world are you doing on a forum exploring trader psychology? I get alot of mail to my website regarding my posts on TL. They thank me for giving them a way of understanding their problems. When I ask them why they write me instead of posting on TL, they answer -- Why would I do that?

 

A forum built for such people does not encourage them to participate. They explore here, but they don't find the conditions right for growth here. Why is this?

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

It is a sense of stepping back and recognizing that you (your awareness) are not your thoughts and beliefs. They simply occupy space as narratives in the mind that have taken over your life. It is in the freeing ourselves from our identification with them that memory and and self belief become fluid and malleable. And we can begin to influence what beliefs take hold and grow our futures................Changing beliefs is not like changing the clothes you wear. It is more like changing the life you live.

 

thanks makes more sense.....

 

 

The Observer the trader is, in this case, as become fused with this way of seeing that it becomes the "correct" way of seeing. Truth is, it is only one way of seeing, albeit an effective one.

 

dont forget that you have to have a link with your market philosophy and you need to match this with what you are looking for..... I think this is an important issue many traders/educators miss. (ever seen the dancing bear advert.... )

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4]Test Your Awareness: Do The Test - YouTube[/ame]).

 

 

Discomfort is not pain to be avoided. It is information to be managed. The brain does not distinguish between psychologial discomfort and biological threat, and often biological interpretation of the brain overwhelms the mind's capacity to discern. Water boarding is a case in point. So, "if if hurts, don't do it" is not a good measure. Any action that takes the brain out of the comfort zone is going to produce discomfort or perceived pain. But to grow to new levels, you have to push through the discomfort (think about walking across a bed of live coals and not burning your feet or a neural psychologist teaching a chronic pain patient to interpret the neural signals differently so that it is not perceived as pain). Distinguishing between psychological discomfort and biological threat is what the trader learns to distinguish and manage.

 

I should have said if it hurts the PL dont do it (my bad)....and we are not talking about taking losses, we are talking about the sequence of trades and there are simple things that traders repeat that hurt the PL - get rid of some of these and I can tell you a lot of the fear, stress, anxiety will go away and you might even see more clearly.

The PL is the best measure you have, and so if it is hurting thats what you should be listening too. Far better traders have always said that the best trades are often those that are the hardest mentally to do......

I now wonder if the idea of trying to eliminate discomfort is all that good and idea.....?

 

Reducing unhelpful anxiety yes.....but you need to keep discomfort.

A lot of this stems from the beliefs in forming a market philosophy and strategy - well before working out how to enter a trade and manage a trade.....these are additional skills.

 

. In trading, it might not be called compassion. It might be called the voice of encouragement or self soothing. It calms the fear so that a new way of acting in the face of fear of uncertainty becomes possible. In my work I teach traders to talk to themselves during moments of confusion in self soothing and encouraging ways -- rather than the beating self up way that is so common in an untrained mind.

 

yeah drop the compassion and talk in trading terms - if you want to sell something to someone its best to talk their language.....

Plus dont underestimate (I mean I am sure you can understand and see) that some people actually react well to beating themselves up in trading....that is what drives them.....different strokes for different folks.....

 

If you are happy with yourself in the midst of trading, why in the world are you doing on a forum exploring trader psychology? I get alot of mail to my website regarding my posts on TL. They thank me for giving them a way of understanding their problems. When I ask them why they write me instead of posting on TL, they answer -- Why would I do that?

 

A forum built for such people does not encourage them to participate. They explore here, but they don't find the conditions right for growth here. Why is this?

 

Rande Howell

 

I am a dissenter by nature and like discussions, it is a public forum and I am quite fascinated by certain things. I did not think it a pre-requisite to have issues to discuss such things? Who is to say I dont have some issues, I just may have less, or other ways of dealing with them. I wouldn't want a discussion to be lopsided....

Surely a public open forum is for discussion, pros and cons, ideas.....from there as you say they might follow up but not publicly

 

For those that need help, I am sure putting it on a public forum is not the best way to help --- that I would have thought should be obvious --- and I probably would not wish to do it either if I was doing deep self analysis.....

however if you think that a public forum is a good way for people to minimise their anxieties or shortcommings for tradings then maybe you can answer other posters questions of why is it that very few testimonials come forward publicly? or so few offer more than simple techniques for self soothing etc; etc.....of course we all know the answers to that

(depending on who you are, as some already have their own pre-concieved ideas)

[johnw 10]

thanks makes more sense.....

 

I am a dissenter by nature and like discussions, it is a public forum and I am quite fascinated by certain things.

 

 

Are you really a 'dissenter' SIUYA .. your posts leave me with the impression that you are mostly a 'Free Thinker' ... that is why I enjoy them.

[Rande Howell 10]

SUIJA

 

I don't see this stuff as "deep analysis". I have a clinical practice and a personal development practice. In the personal development side, the question is always about what stops the performer from performing at a higher level. And how do you develop the internal skills sets that bring forth higher levels of performance.

 

If you are at a level that you are satisfied in your performance, then there is no need to get to the bottom of it and solve that problem. The way that would look in trading is that you look at numbers, correlate them into a system of methodology that gives you an edge, and you do the trade. Emotional baggage does not show up because emotional baggage is not attached to your perception of money. For most, this is not true. If you are not performing on that level and are highly motivated to get past that obstacle, then inquiry into why becomes necessary. Or you can continue to push through the problem and maybe it will resolve itself. I see both ways work for diffenent people. There are a large number of people who have some significant issues that must be worked through -- here clinical and personal development run parallel.

 

Regarding testimonials. Why on earth would anyone show up on TL in this group and give a testimonial? It is not anything I would ever encourage. And I've never asked anyone to do so because I see it as irrelevant. However, for you if you contact me through my website, I will be happy to give you a reference list of traders I have worked with. The understanding would be that the list would be for you and you only. You, I would trust to honor that. Then you can report back to the doubting brethren on TL.

 

From what I can tell a chunk of the folks who participate in TL hold a belief that learning should be free, both method and psychology, and are quite scrappy about that position. People who believe in investing capital into training are going to self select out of participation. Call it segregation. They may view, but not participate. When I have made presentations to the OIC, MetaStocks, PGFBest, methodology training groups, or Traders Expo -- they have never heard of TL. They value and learn from different sources. And these constitute my marketing direction. Is there a lot of snake oil? Of course there is. There is also a lot of seasoned traders taking less experienced trader's money. It works that way. You really need to be a smart consumer in this industry.

 

Rande Howell

[MightyMouse 12]

SUIJA

 

I don't see this stuff as "deep analysis". I have a clinical practice and a personal development practice. In the personal development side, the question is always about what stops the performer from performing at a higher level. And how do you develop the internal skills sets that bring forth higher levels of performance.

 

If you are at a level that you are satisfied in your performance, then there is no need to get to the bottom of it and solve that problem. The way that would look in trading is that you look at numbers, correlate them into a system of methodology that gives you an edge, and you do the trade. Emotional baggage does not show up because emotional baggage is not attached to your perception of money. For most, this is not true. If you are not performing on that level and are highly motivated to get past that obstacle, then inquiry into why becomes necessary. Or you can continue to push through the problem and maybe it will resolve itself. I see both ways work for diffenent people. There are a large number of people who have some significant issues that must be worked through -- here clinical and personal development run parallel.

 

Regarding testimonials. Why on earth would anyone show up on TL in this group and give a testimonial? It is not anything I would ever encourage. And I've never asked anyone to do so because I see it as irrelevant. However, for you if you contact me through my website, I will be happy to give you a reference list of traders I have worked with. The understanding would be that the list would be for you and you only. You, I would trust to honor that. Then you can report back to the doubting brethren on TL.

 

From what I can tell a chunk of the folks who participate in TL hold a belief that learning should be free, both method and psychology, and are quite scrappy about that position. People who believe in investing capital into training are going to self select out of participation. Call it segregation. They may view, but not participate. When I have made presentations to the OIC, MetaStocks, PGFBest, methodology training groups, or Traders Expo -- they have never heard of TL. They value and learn from different sources. And these constitute my marketing direction. Is there a lot of snake oil? Of course there is. There is also a lot of seasoned traders taking less experienced trader's money. It works that way. You really need to be a smart consumer in this industry.

 

Rande Howell

 

Rande,

 

You shouldn't be surprised to find participants on a free forum to expect information to be free. It makes more sense for forum members to be surprised when other forum members want to charge for information.

 

MM

[Kiwi 16]

I don't believe that learning should be free. Heck, I even bought the book to see if there was any meat.

 

But I don't believe that snake oil salesmen offer any proof. They need to obfuscate and make a bunch of claims that can't be tested. After a while it sounds a lot more like one of those pay me now, heaven later religions than like science or edumication.

 

I do get irritated with people who're using the forum as an advertising medium and then get all upset on being called for it. Oh well ... why be surprised ... the down southern preachers do the same.

 

 

 

 

... oh yeah ... in response to the why read threads on psychology ... 1. you can always get better ... and 2. its interesting to watch the sellers of oil of serpent.

[SIUYA 11]

SUIJA

I don't see this stuff as "deep analysis". I have a clinical practice and a personal development practice. In the personal development side, the question is always about what stops the performer from performing at a higher level. And how do you develop the internal skills sets that bring forth higher levels of performance.

 

Ok....deeper than what people may wish to divulge on a public forum then.

 

SUIJA

If you are at a level that you are satisfied in your performance, then there is no need to get to the bottom of it and solve that problem. The way that would look in trading is that you look at numbers, correlate them into a system of methodology that gives you an edge, and you do the trade. Emotional baggage does not show up because emotional baggage is not attached to your perception of money.

 

oh, dont worry.....i have the baggage attached to money I can assure you - I actually think this baggage helps me. It means I want to keep what I make.....I freely admit my biggest issue is that I probably limit myself in terms of how much I make and how aggressive I am, but it also means that I will probably never go broke.....in life I think everything is a trade off and this is one that I am more than happy to live with.

To gain a comparative/competitive advantage too often people think they need to improve on their weaknesses - I would think the opposite, you need to focus on your strengths and maximse them and exploit the weaknesses of your competitors.

 

SUIJA

For most, this is not true. If you are not performing on that level and are highly motivated to get past that obstacle, then inquiry into why becomes necessary. Or you can continue to push through the problem and maybe it will resolve itself. I see both ways work for diffenent people. There are a large number of people who have some significant issues that must be worked through -- here clinical and personal development run parallel.

 

I guess this is where a lot of people get irked with your profession.....how do you know its most, how do you know what the problem holding them back is, if people have significant issues, maybe trading is not for them.......Personally I see a lot of value in the work of someone like yourself, but I also see that too often there is this theme of "yes you can do it, you can be anyone, you can be the greatest, unleash the best you can be" - it is a bit to much.....and while I dont put you in this category Rwande (sorry my typo - just as my name is SIUYA, not SUIJA ) there is a lot of complex double word speak and jargon and often more - you have an issue and I will fix it, rather than - here are some tasks and ideas to help you......remembering that you are offering paid services on a public forum and hence might be subject to some scrutiny.....Often the financial, accounting and particulalry the legal world is just a guilty, its like calling "thinking things through" philosophy just to complicate the matter.

 

How many people have you told - sorry buddy - trading is not for you and I suggest you give up and try other things.....how many firms have you worked for and said - candidate A, F, and H we can work on, the rest you might as well fire? Do you stand up and say at seminars - many of you will fail, some of you I cannot help, for those I can you might find some value in my services......do you offer a money back guarantee if the person cannot be helped (much like manufacturers have to fix faulty products).....all food for thought

 

Regarding testimonials. Why on earth would anyone show up on TL in this group and give a testimonial? It is not anything I would ever encourage.

 

But you suggest people bare their souls, inner monetary narrative baggage.....you have lost me on the logic here.

 

From what I can tell a chunk of the folks who participate in TL hold a belief that learning should be free, both method and psychology, and are quite scrappy about that position.

 

actually I think on a public forum that is designed to help others then yes - just as you are free to advertise, be scrutinised and I (and many others I am sure) would hope you see this as a learning experience yourself.

To a large extent you should be getting some good feedback for your teachings, and for possible responses to sceptics, to help hone your own teachings, and this should help maybe spruik those more interested in seeing you....maybe you should be thanking us for helping you market and for those of us that trade it might give some extra insight into things....but thats fine - its a free internet forum for discussions.

yes its scrappy, yes its messy, and most 300 page books can probably be summarised down into 10 pages but where is the fun/understanding in that.

 

Clearly some will see value in things, just as others will see no or negative value in things.

you do need to be a smart consumer, smart marketer and smart trader, and I thank you for your participation here and hope you dont get too annoyed/despondent by the continual dissention - there is always the ignore button - but then again isn't that like putting the blinkers on the marketing mind?

 

(JohnW - dissenter - free thinker - they kind of have to be the same IMHO, and thanks my aim is to entertain. I like to have my opinions change and I think TL has certainly clarified some things, and changed my mind on others. What a wonderful world without group think and yet there is wisdom in crowds.)

[johnw 10]

 

(JohnW - dissenter - free thinker - they kind of have to be the same IMHO, and thanks my aim is to entertain. I like to have my opinions change and I think TL has certainly clarified some things, and changed my mind on others. What a wonderful world without group think and yet there is wisdom in crowds.)

 

 

gm SIUYA,

 

So be it..

But if dissenter and free thinker mean the same to you, I think that you are selling yourself short.

To me your posts offer originality rather than a push against convention or authority.

That is why I enjoy them .

[Rande Howell 10]

[quoteTo a large extent you should be getting some good feedback for your teachings, and for possible responses to sceptics, to help hone your own teachings, and this should help maybe spruik those more interested in seeing you....maybe you should be thanking us for helping you market and for those of us that trade it might give some extra insight into things....but thats fine - its a free internet forum for discussions.

 

SUIJA

This is why I participate here. I test out ideas here. And when a lot of stuff happens, it gives me the opportunity to observe and think. And there are some I enjoy the rigor of the conversation -- of which you are one. The offer still stands.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

Thanks Rande for the offer, I would definitely take it up if I choose to re-visit any mental conditioning/improvement help.

As for a recent invite to something I declined as while interested I was not trading and moving countries, so it would not have been appropriate to try and comment on my flawed emotional memory .....as such I am now getting back into the trading again (as well as a few other related projects) and so might revisit things as we get going.

 

Interestingly enough I have manged to automate a large section of the trading process that was giving me - lets call them - "m...fer" thoughts to do with admin - which I find more distracting than most trading decisions.

As well as improving some entry ideas via automation that I was toying with to make things easier that just having to watch the screen and wait - now I can wait, watch if needed and listen, and just make decisions based on trade management.....for those who interested I took a slightly opposite approach to what seems to be the norm....while most systems automate your exits, I prefer to automate the entries (they are not so systemised as to be backtested very well however) and then manage the trade - we shall see how it goes.....

 

Plus having a chunk of money locked up with MFGlobal has also given me unhinged thoughts of sticking a fork in John Corzines eye.....but that has nothing to do with trading really.

[Rande Howell 10]

Plus having a chunk of money locked up with MFGlobal has also given me unhinged thoughts of sticking a fork in John Corzines eye.....but that has nothing to do with trading really.

 

SUIYA

 

My condolences regrading MF Global. I know it's "just" money and its a money conversation that we participate in, but I never anticipated a shark in that area of the trading ocean. Fully expect it in the markets. And I'm wondering how can that much money just disappear.

 

Good luck, and good use of that money narrative of yours.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

thanks....

this says it all.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAKsMnAM8vk]Poof it's gone! - YouTube[/ame]

[Rande Howell 10]

thanks....

this says it all.

 

SUIYA

 

So funny, as my side hurts. Live to trade another day.

 

Rande

[bobcollett 10]

SUIYA

 

Live to trade another day.

 

Rande

 

Dear Rande

Have you started trading?

Hows it going?

Kind regards

bobc

[Rande Howell 10]

Dear Rande

Have you started trading?

Hows it going?

Kind regards

bobc

 

Why would I do that? I do not have the necessary passion to drive the engine of trading. I do have passion for teaching people how to reconstruct their belief systems that trade though. One I have come to understand about satisfaction in life. You create it by finding your passion and living it. That is what attracts me to working with traders. They are a passionate group about their endeavor. And the measuring stick is black and white -- trading account. When I worked entirely with peak performance with other populations (particularly sales and corporate business folks), there was much grey area in interpreting what constitued peak performance.

 

Trading is like any other endeavor where performance is measured by result. You isolate the conditions that create peak performance, you find what beliefs stops the performer from achieving higher performance, you teach how to manage the emotions (and their meaning) regarding the uncertainty of performance, and you help them build the mind that enters the performance. I take great pleasure in seeing people learn how to do that.

 

It is working with the mind of a trader that interests me. And there is really nothing partially special about trading that makes it different from other endeavors, except that self deception costs money much quicker. Kinda like instant karma. That's the part I like.

 

Rande Howell