Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

ptcman

Volume Bar Chart Question

Recommended Posts

Hi.

 

I've been watching volume bar charts and I have a better view of price swings with this type of charts. My question though is about up and down ticks when using volume bar charts.

 

If trading a 500 volume bar chart and measure the up and down ticks of each bar, lets say, 300 up ticks and 200 down ticks, indicates of the 500 contracts (volume) traded, 300 made prices tick upwards and 200 made prices tick downwards.

 

Is this reading correct? I don't know why but this sounds a bit strange.

 

Regards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi.

 

I've been watching volume bar charts and I have a better view of price swings with this type of charts. My question though is about up and down ticks when using volume bar charts.

 

If trading a 500 volume bar chart and measure the up and down ticks of each bar, lets say, 300 up ticks and 200 down ticks, indicates of the 500 contracts (volume) traded, 300 made prices tick upwards and 200 made prices tick downwards.

 

Is this reading correct? I don't know why but this sounds a bit strange.

 

Regards.

 

why do you want to be concerned with up ticks and down ticks?

 

who is your broker?

what is your charting program?

 

I ask, because up tick and down tick have different meaning (definition) to different people (program).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
why do you want to be concerned with up ticks and down ticks?

 

who is your broker?

what is your charting program?

 

I ask, because up tick and down tick have different meaning (definition) to different people (program).

 

Hi TAMS.

 

I don't receive my data through my broker (IB). I use eSignal for data, and Multicharts has my trading/chart platform.

 

My idea for up and down ticks is to "know", within a bar" which side won, buyers or sellers? Sometimes, a bar closes at the high, but down ticks are higher than up ticks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi TAMS.

 

I don't receive my data through my broker (IB). I use eSignal for data, and Multicharts has my trading/chart platform.

 

My idea for up and down ticks is to "know", within a bar" which side won, buyers or sellers? Sometimes, a bar closes at the high, but down ticks are higher than up ticks.

 

are you looking for up tick / down tick? or up volume / down volume?

 

 

just want to make sure you understand,

most of the datafeed are aggregated.

 

eg. IB sends its quotes out every 250~300 millisecond.

 

if there are 3 trades (ie it should be 3 ticks) during a 300 ms time lapse,

you might only get 1 tick reported from IB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said TAMS, I receive my data through eSignal, not IB. Because of that lag IB has on retrieving quotes (especially volume) I was forced to subscribe eSignal data service.

 

Yes, there is that question of up/down volume and up/down ticks which I continue to have some troubles understanding.

 

I have a couple of indicators in Multicharts where, for example, if bartype => 2 volume is used for calculations, but if bartype < 2 then ticks is used.

 

My view is that for a better volume reading when using minute or seconds charts, ticks are more reliable.

 

My question is if when I'm using up or down ticks am I using volume or the trade count? That's why I'm getting second thoughts when applying the up and down tick to bar volume charts, because a 500 volume bar chart, indicates that during that bar, 500 contracts were traded. So when I request the up and down tick for that bar and receive 300 up ticks and 200 down ticks, what am I receiving?

 

I can see that every time price move up it counts has 1 up tick and every time it moves down it count has 1 down tick, I have a countdown that does that, but since we are looking at a 500 volume bar chart, are those 300 contracts indicating they were traded upwards and those 200 contracts indicating they were traded downwards, since 1 tick equals 1 trade, which equals 1 contract?

 

Damn, why such a simple thing becomes so hard to understand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when you create your chart,

from the format instrument window,

under the settings tab,

you have an option to choose "Build Volume On:"

 

1. Trade Volume

2. Tick Count

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

get the ebook

EasyLanguage Essentials Programmers Guide

 

go to

 

Appendix A

Volume Reserved Words Usage Tables.... pg. 133

 

read up on the difference between TICKS and VOLUME

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Like I said TAMS, I receive my data through eSignal, not IB. Because of that lag IB has on retrieving quotes (especially volume) I was forced to subscribe eSignal data service.

...

 

eSignal aggregates its quotes as well. It is in the small print of the user aggreement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

Yes, there is that question of up/down volume and up/down ticks which I continue to have some troubles understanding.

 

I have a couple of indicators in Multicharts where, for example, if bartype => 2 volume is used for calculations, but if bartype < 2 then ticks is used.

...

 

ONE tick is ONE transaction.

 

ONE transaction may consists of many contracts/share.

 

eg. one person might buy 100 shares of IBM... that's one tick on the record.

another person might buy 10,000 shares of IBM... that's also one tick on the record.

 

when the data feed is aggregated,

when 3 people buying 100 shares each might show up as 3 ticks of 100 shares, or 1 tick of 300 shares.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I understand correctly, you are using price bars that are defined by contract size. I used 10,000 contracts on the ES before, once 10,000 contracts are traded, another bar prints. It is still the price action that you want to look at because that's the result of buying and selling. I hope that wasn't a useless answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... I receive my data through eSignal, not IB. Because of that lag IB has on retrieving quotes (especially volume) I was forced to subscribe eSignal data service.

 

Never heard or have seen such a lag.

 

IB feed is much better than people think.

Usually it shows no lag even in high volatility times.

 

Btw the often read commonplace that IB sends one quote 3-4 times every second is not true.

Actually the feed adapts to market action and can send data much more frequently.

Everyone who cares to write a program to interface directly to their API can see this.

Surely IB is not suited for bid/ask studies. (But then their use is disputable.)

 

(I am not affiliated with IB and see many things on their platform quite critical.

This post is only to allow you to save money)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi.

 

Accordingly to eSignal, they do not aggregate their data. All are sent in real time. I cannot prove this of course, but I can say that their data (tick/volume) can have at times huge disparities when compared with IB's data. I mean huge disparities....

For example, using tick count on Multicharts (Built Volume On) and applying the Ticks reserved word on a 500 contract bar chart, IB never goes above 100 whereas eSignal go easily above 300 on each bar.

 

Look, I'm not saying that IB feed is a bad one. In terms of minute price data, they are exactly the same, diverging at times on the bar close price. My problem with it was always regarding their volume data, and of course my lack of understanding about the up and down tick reading that TAMS promptly helped with, thanks.

Now I can see even clearer the differences between IB and eSignal tick data. Like I said, they are huge, which can generate quite different results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Ptcman,

 

Simply put. No. You should not see tick and volume as the same in movement of price. One tick is every time the price is making a single movement. Contract volume during that time can be what ever it can be.

 

 

Laurus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's how I view it...

 

A tic is a trade and a trade has volume.

 

Most of the time (>95%) the volume of a trade is either 1 or 2 contracts.

(export tic-based-data for a day, import/open in excel and validate for yourself)

 

In the not so distant past, we most likely saw larger block trades in higher frequency. I suspect since the majority of trading is nowadays automated by computer, large blocks can be easily broken up and hidden within smaller orders so the big boys do not tip off each other and larger block transactions can be filled at more consistent prices leading to larger profits. Do you think the big boys pay a per-trade commission? I often wonder if seemingly large block trades observed today are actually a ploy. Anyway... back to my point.

 

The price of a trade can be either up, down or the same as the prior price - this is the price you get filled at...

 

An interesting aspect to analysis is if this trade price is at the Bid or at the Ask – hard to hide this fact from us.

 

A common and rather valid assumption is that trades at the Ask are Buys and trades at the Bid are Sells - to validate consider what price you get filled at when you place a respective market order, ie what price do you get filled at when a Market Buy order is filled - typically at the Ask (if not always). What price do you get filled at when you panic and exit or panic and enter? Consider what type of traders placing such orders.

 

Strangely this assumption does not fit traders who place Limit orders to buy below the market or sell limit orders above the market. Ask yourself what type of a trader does this... this knowledge is most definitely an edge to be taken advantage of.

 

So to me a question of volume and tics up/down based on price is not as important or “tail” telling as the answer to questions about volume, tics at the Bid or Ask... it makes for a much better and easier market story read.

 

Happy trading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PROX Bars charts for comparison;

 

 

.75 Renko charts -

 

Images | ChartHub.com

 

4,000 contract equal Total Volume candles -

 

Images | ChartHub.com

 

4,000 contract equal Delta Volume candles -

 

Images | ChartHub.com

 

 

I ONLY use DTN.IQ feed for all my PROX Bars and Cumulative Delta charting (the only feed that keeps passing all my BID/ASK data testing). I tend to use a 1.0 Renko for my "ES" HTF chart and .50 Renko for my Entry chart. BTW, looks like Trendscalping site will have PROX Bars ready in Sierra Charts by the end of next week (right now only in Inv RT Pro / Marketdelta charts).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting messages guys, thanks.

 

When we look at an up tick aren't we looking at a trade(s) that hit the ask, and when we look at a down tick aren't we looking at a trade(s) that hit the bid? Naturally that we don't know the volume produce at each price, but can't we use a tick counter to have an idea of the movement made on those prices?

 

I rarely used, if ever, limit orders :roll eyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what you are looking for is Volume Delta and nothing to do with ticks. The idea behind looking the volume delta is to get an idea of how strong an up or down tick might be, or likewise to find divergence where we see price rising but number of contracts traded within that price bar is negative. This is very simplistic, but I believe it is what you're looking for. Have you had a look at Market Delta, as it has these charts already available. In terms of data feed you should look for a higher quality one like DTN.IQ, which is unfiltered and non-aggregated.

 

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Be careful who you blame.   I can tell you one thing for sure.   Effective traders don’t blame others when things start to go wrong.   You can hang onto your tendency to play the victim, or the martyr… but if you want to achieve in trading, you have to be prepared to take responsibility.   People assign reasons to outcomes, whether based on internal or external factors.   When traders face losses, it's common for them to blame bad luck, poor advice, or other external factors, rather than reflecting on their own personal attributes like arrogance, fear, or greed.   This is a challenging lesson to grasp in your trading journey, but one that holds immense value.   This is called attribution theory. Taking responsibility for your actions is the key to improving your trading skills. Pause and ask yourself - What role did I play in my financial decisions?   After all, you were the one who listened to that source, and decided to act on that trade based on the rumour. Attributing results solely to external circumstances is what is known as having an ‘external locus of control’.   It's a concept coined by psychologist Julian Rotter in 1954. A trader with an external locus of control might say, "I made a profit because the markets are currently favourable."   Instead, strive to develop an "internal locus of control" and take ownership of your actions.   Assume that all trading results are within your realm of responsibility and actively seek ways to improve your own behaviour.   This is the fastest route to enhancing your trading abilities. A trader with an internal locus of control might proudly state, "My equity curve is rising because I am a disciplined trader who faithfully follows my trading plan." Author: Louise Bedford Source: https://www.tradinggame.com.au/
    • SELF IMPROVEMENT.   The whole self-help industry began when Dale Carnegie published How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936. Then came other classics like Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins toward the end of the century.   Today, teaching people how to improve themselves is a business. A pure ruthless business where some people sell utter bullshit.   There are broke Instagrammers and YouTubers with literally no solid background teaching men how to be attractive to women, how to begin a start-up, how to become successful — most of these guys speaking nothing more than hollow motivational words and cliche stuff. They waste your time. Some of these people who present themselves as hugely successful also give talks and write books.   There are so many books on financial advice, self-improvement, love, etc and some people actually try to read them. They are a waste of time, mostly.   When you start reading a dozen books on finance you realize that they all say the same stuff.   You are not going to live forever in the learning phase. Don't procrastinate by reading bull-shit or the same good knowledge in 10 books. What we ought to do is choose wisely.   Yes. A good book can change your life, given you do what it asks you to do.   All the books I have named up to now are worthy of reading. Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, Robert Greene — these guys are worthy of reading. These guys teach what others don't. Their books are unique and actually, come from relevant and successful people.   When Richard Branson writes a book about entrepreneurship, go read it. Every line in that book is said by one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time.   When a Chinese millionaire( he claims to be) Youtuber who releases a video titled “Why reading books keeps you broke” and a year later another one “My recommendation of books for grand success” you should be wise to tell him to jump from Victoria Falls.   These self-improvement gurus sell you delusions.   They say they have those little tricks that only they know that if you use, everything in your life will be perfect. Those little tricks. We are just “making of a to-do-list before sleeping” away from becoming the next Bill Gates.   There are no little tricks.   There is no success-mantra.   Self-improvement is a trap for 99% of the people. You can't do that unless you are very, very strong.   If you are looking for easy ways, you will only keep wasting your time forgetting that your time on this planet is limited, as alive humans that is.   Also, I feel that people who claim to read like a book a day or promote it are idiots. You retain nothing. When you do read a good book, you read slow, sometimes a whole paragraph, again and again, dwelling on it, trying to internalize its knowledge. You try to understand. You think. It takes time.   It's better to read a good book 10 times than 1000 stupid ones.   So be choosy. Read from the guys who actually know something, not some wannabe ‘influencers’.   Edit: Think And Grow Rich was written as a result of a project assigned to Napoleon Hill by Andrew Carnegie(the 2nd richest man in recent history). He was asked to study the most successful people on the planet and document which characteristics made them great. He did extensive work in studying hundreds of the most successful people of that time. The result was that little book.   Nowadays some people just study Instagram algorithms and think of themselves as a Dale Carnegie or Anthony Robbins. By Nupur Nishant, Quora Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/    
    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.