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Tradewinds

How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

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If I were going to sell a trading system, or have someone pay me for a trading course, I would make them a guarantee. I would guarantee that they will make money in simulated trading within a certain time period, or I will give them 110% of their money back. That is the way I would do business. And I wouldn't charge them much up front. If I could teach someone to make money trading, then they would have plenty of money to pay me later. If I can't teach someone to make money trading, then I shouldn't be getting anything.

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I think that many people like to pass along knowledge that has been acquired. It makes us feel like we have value, and it can give us an ego boost. So emotionally and psychologically there is a benefit to telling other people what we know. If we can get paid for telling people what we know, then there is also a financial benefit. But it seems like there are conflicting motives for someone to write a trading book, sell a system or a subscription, or sell any other information. If the information is so valuable, then why don't people just keep it to themselves?

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If you are giving a 110% guarantee, I would like to buy your first 10,000 subscriptions.

 

One per customer. Sorry! :rofl: But seriously, there is no point in selling a trading system, indicator, subscription or anything else if it actually does make money. If it really does make money, then I will never tell anyone about it. I will hire employees to trade my system. I will run a trading room where people can trade my system. But it would all be "black box". No one will ever see what is on the inside of that little "black box".

 

But I could still sell my system for a 110% guarantee and not loose money. In fact, I would guarantee that you would make money in LIVE trading. Because I would have a verification system that the customer didn't intentionally loose money in order to get the 110% back. Let's say I charged $10,000 dollars for the system. You would get $11,000 dollars back if you lost money in LIVE trading. Yes, I know that I said sim trading before. And I would put in the contract that you would have to loose more than $1,000 dollars in live trading. So ultimately, you would have a net negative. So would I, but I probably would not get a lot of people who just intentionally wanted to loose money in order to mess with me.

 

Then, if they couldn't make money in live trading, I would have it in the contract that they would have to stop using the system. So they wouldn't be able to trade the system either. So the customer would still have a net negative, and they wouldn't be able to keep the system. Remember, it would be "black box" indicators. So it would all be locked up, and have an expiration date. All kinds of software has that.

 

If I was selling a system that was not black box indicators, I would set up a system where I would be part owner of your broker account. Yes, I know, I know. No one would ever agree to that. But that would be their loss. If they don't want to make tons of money trading, fine, then don't buy my system. It will be a crushing blow to my ego that will take a few days to get over, but hopefully I'll pull out of it.

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One per customer. Sorry! :rofl: But seriously, there is no point in selling a trading system, indicator, subscription or anything else if it actually does make money. If it really does make money, then I will never tell anyone about it. I will hire employees to trade my system. I will run a trading room where people can trade my system. But it would all be "black box". No one will ever see what is on the inside of that little "black box".

 

But I could still sell my system for a 110% guarantee and not loose money. In fact, I would guarantee that you would make money in LIVE trading. Because I would have a verification system that the customer didn't intentionally loose money in order to get the 110% back. Let's say I charged $10,000 dollars for the system. You would get $11,000 dollars back if you lost money in LIVE trading. Yes, I know that I said sim trading before. And I would put in the contract that you would have to loose more than $1,000 dollars in live trading. So ultimately, you would have a net negative. So would I, but I probably would not get a lot of people who just intentionally wanted to loose money in order to mess with me.

 

Then, if they couldn't make money in live trading, I would have it in the contract that they would have to stop using the system. So they wouldn't be able to trade the system either. So the customer would still have a net negative, and they wouldn't be able to keep the system. Remember, it would be "black box" indicators. So it would all be locked up, and have an expiration date. All kinds of software has that.

 

If I was selling a system that was not black box indicators, I would set up a system where I would be part owner of your broker account. Yes, I know, I know. No one would ever agree to that. But that would be their loss. If they don't want to make tons of money trading, fine, then don't buy my system. It will be a crushing blow to my ego that will take a few days to get over, but hopefully I'll pull out of it.

 

Tradewinds,

 

You are better off if you do not tell anyone because if too many people trade it, it won't work or won't work as well since trading is a zero sum game.

 

Consider a poker example. If you create a poker-bot to play at a table of 10 players and it has an edge over each of the other 9 players, you will eke out a profit from that table. If sell a copy of the poker-bot to one other guy, then the two of you will make money off the other 8, but not off each other since you do not have an edge over each other. Each person who uses the bot at the table reduces the amount you make from playing poker to the point where if all 10 players a re using the same bot, then the rake will be divided equally and in the long run all of you are losers in spite of the fact that you are trading a winning strategy.

 

On the other hand, a course that could teach a trader how to properly read a market I think would be worth the traders weight in gold. I do wish that someone sat with me and taught me what I have learned without cutting through all the bull shit.

 

MM

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Tradewinds and Mighty Mouse,

 

Good conversation, But you are missing one perspective, that of the forex mentor...

 

Consider this..

 

A professional sports team holds spring training try outs. This professional team has the best coaches money can buy, who have developed the best curriculum (training program) possible, using top of the line equipment and facilities. However, of all the pro athletes in attendance, some will be all stars, some will be second stringers, and yes, there will be some who frankly get cut from the team.

 

for those athletes that get cut, who's fault was it? was it the coaches? was it the equipment? No. The difference is INSIDE EACH ATHLETE. You see there is a level of personal responsibility that comes with learning a new skill and then using that skill to achieve success. maybe it's perserverence, maybe discipline, who knows? it's different for everyone.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not about the system, it is about the INDIVIDUAL TRADER, a good trader can make almost any system profitable, but a lousy trader will lose money with a profitable system. So it is noble of you to offer 110% refund, but you would be making the mistake of believing that YOU can single handedly make someone successful, and that is simply not true.

 

Does Harvard give you a refund on your tuition if you are not successful in the career of your degree? Not hardly. But do you doubt the credibility of that school? of course not.

 

Some people are just not cut out to be traders. and if you offer unrealistic refunds, you will be out of business and will not be able to help anyone.

 

Just my two cents...

 

...good trades,

Sam

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Tradewinds and Mighty Mouse,

 

Some people are just not cut out to be traders. and if you offer unrealistic refunds, you will be out of business and will not be able to help anyone.

 

Just my two cents...

 

...good trades,

Sam

 

 

Or, at the very least become frustrated.

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Tradewinds and Mighty Mouse,

 

Good conversation, But you are missing one perspective, that of the forex mentor...

 

Consider this..

 

A professional sports team holds spring training try outs. This professional team has the best coaches money can buy, who have developed the best curriculum (training program) possible, using top of the line equipment and facilities. However, of all the pro athletes in attendance, some will be all stars, some will be second stringers, and yes, there will be some who frankly get cut from the team.

 

for those athletes that get cut, who's fault was it? was it the coaches? was it the equipment? No. The difference is INSIDE EACH ATHLETE. You see there is a level of personal responsibility that comes with learning a new skill and then using that skill to achieve success. maybe it's perserverence, maybe discipline, who knows? it's different for everyone.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not about the system, it is about the INDIVIDUAL TRADER, a good trader can make almost any system profitable, but a lousy trader will lose money with a profitable system. So it is noble of you to offer 110% refund, but you would be making the mistake of believing that YOU can single handedly make someone successful, and that is simply not true.

 

Does Harvard give you a refund on your tuition if you are not successful in the career of your degree? Not hardly. But do you doubt the credibility of that school? of course not.

 

Some people are just not cut out to be traders. and if you offer unrealistic refunds, you will be out of business and will not be able to help anyone.

 

Just my two cents...

 

...good trades,

Sam

 

Sam

 

I was wondering when I might see this kind of response....(an adult response). There is no additional comment about the substance...you have nailed it

 

Adults will get it, and those with less "adult" emotional status will find that your comment evokes what psychologists call "infantile rage"....meaning that they are pissed off that the world won't just give them what they want......

 

by the way, I imagine you will hear about it...and so will I for that matter, just for posting this....lol

 

Best of luck to you in your trading

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If I were going to sell a trading system, or have someone pay me for a trading course, I would make them a guarantee. I would guarantee that they will make money in simulated trading within a certain time period, or I will give them 110% of their money back. That is the way I would do business. And I wouldn't charge them much up front. If I could teach someone to make money trading, then they would have plenty of money to pay me later. If I can't teach someone to make money trading, then I shouldn't be getting anything.

 

You could certainly guarantee that you won't LOSE any money trading Sim, haha. Regardless I think trading teaches some of the most valuable lessons and gives us more insight about ourselves than we realize.

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You could certainly guarantee that you won't LOSE any money trading Sim, haha. Regardless I think trading teaches some of the most valuable lessons and gives us more insight about ourselves than we realize.

 

I have heard that said a lot and have thought about it. Quite frankly, I haven't learned a thing about myself that I already didn't know. Maybe I did something wrong. I do not know. But, I am curious to know what you learned about yourself that you didn't know beforehand.

 

MM

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The topic is interesting because there are extreme conflicts. Why would anyone with an excellent system want to sell it? That doesn't make any sense to me. It brings up issues having to do with the intentions of the person selling the system, indicators, services, subscription, etc. One motivation a successful trader might have to make information available to others, would be a way to boost their ego. But there may be a certain degree of goodwill also. And I have read posts from people who stated that they had been helped in the past, and wanted to "give something back" to the trading community. So what motivates someone to put together a blog, subscription, indicators, or a system, could be a mix of motives and intentions. Effort needs to be exerted, and some wisdom employed, in order to determine what a person's intentions are.

 

One point that I am trying to make, is that for me personally, I want to have good intentions and a high standard of behavior. On the surface, having a 110% money back guarantee seems naive, and doomed to failure. And obviously, under most situations, a 110% money back guarantee would be foolish to offer. But consider if the sale were combined with a method of trying to filter out people who were not good candidates, plus a mentoring system, that might be a basic foundation for a way to increase the odds of success.

 

I don't have any plans to sell a trading system or trading indicators. What I'm saying is, that IF I were going to do that, then I would want to do business at a very high moral and ethical standard. That's the way I want to live me life, and that's the type of person I want to be.

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The topic is interesting because there are extreme conflicts. Why would anyone with an excellent system want to sell it? That doesn't make any sense to me. It brings up issues having to do with the intentions of the person selling the system, indicators, services, subscription, etc. One motivation a successful trader might have to make information available to others, would be a way to boost their ego. But there may be a certain degree of goodwill also. And I have read posts from people who stated that they had been helped in the past, and wanted to "give something back" to the trading community. So what motivates someone to put together a blog, subscription, indicators, or a system, could be a mix of motives and intentions. Effort needs to be exerted, and some wisdom employed, in order to determine what a person's intentions are.

 

One point that I am trying to make, is that for me personally, I want to have good intentions and a high standard of behavior. On the surface, having a 110% money back guarantee seems naive, and doomed to failure. And obviously, under most situations, a 110% money back guarantee would be foolish to offer. But consider if the sale were combined with a method of trying to filter out people who were not good candidates, plus a mentoring system, that might be a basic foundation for a way to increase the odds of success.

 

I don't have any plans to sell a trading system or trading indicators. What I'm saying is, that IF I were going to do that, then I would want to do business at a very high moral and ethical standard. That's the way I want to live me life, and that's the type of person I want to be.

 

What is unethical or immoral about selling an indicator or a system? It would be unethical if you bought a system and you got a blank disk. It would be unethical if it failed to enter and exit properly. But the trader is the fool if he thinks he is going to turn the market into a personal ATM.

 

You get what you pay for. If you were expecting magic, then what you paid is probably not that much to learn that there is no such thing as magic.

 

MM

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MightyMouse-

 

I suppose because I am younger the insights that I've gathered over my 5 years as a student of the markets has been more direct. I've developed a lot more patience over the years, something I never had before. I've taken the traders mindset and transferred it to different disciplines such as relationships, business deals, and even bike racing. I guess the biggest thing I've got out of trading is a completely fresh mindset on how to live my life. The old cliche of not working for money, but having it work for you and building passive income streams totally transformed my life, but again, I was young when I started trading, in my teens, so a lot of it is probably just part of growing up.

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What is unethical or immoral about selling an indicator or a system? It would be unethical if you bought a system and you got a blank disk. It would be unethical if it failed to enter and exit properly. But the trader is the fool if he thinks he is going to turn the market into a personal ATM.

 

You get what you pay for. If you were expecting magic, then what you paid is probably not that much to learn that there is no such thing as magic.

 

MM

 

Agree with MM on this. Without cost, there is no perceived value.

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ditto mysticFx and MM.

if you gave it away for free, people will still want to change it, ignore it, not believe it.

Charge....and people give it value. (religion comes to mind here :) for that added bit of controversy)

 

I have seen many systems that claim to be great and charge for that, when they are not much better than a simple system you could apply with most retail platforms.....

the market will pay what it can, and then after that the rest is marketing - marketing - marketing.

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MightyMouse-

 

I suppose because I am younger the insights that I've gathered over my 5 years as a student of the markets has been more direct. I've developed a lot more patience over the years, something I never had before. I've taken the traders mindset and transferred it to different disciplines such as relationships, business deals, and even bike racing. I guess the biggest thing I've got out of trading is a completely fresh mindset on how to live my life. The old cliche of not working for money, but having it work for you and building passive income streams totally transformed my life, but again, I was young when I started trading, in my teens, so a lot of it is probably just part of growing up.

 

Yeah a lot of things may have coincided at the same time as trading that I attribute to other events.and not necessarily to trading.I don't race bikes but i can see how that too might have provided some lessons on its own. Marriage and children are another big chapter.

 

MM

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ditto mysticFx and MM.

if you gave it away for free, people will still want to change it, ignore it, not believe it.

Charge....and people give it value. (religion comes to mind here :) for that added bit of controversy)

 

I have seen many systems that claim to be great and charge for that, when they are not much better than a simple system you could apply with most retail platforms.....

the market will pay what it can, and then after that the rest is marketing - marketing - marketing.

 

I am a discretionary trader, but I can see how i would benefit from coding what I do to free up some time or get me into trades that set up in the overnight.

 

I have not looked at any systems other than a quick glance as I delete them from my junk folder, but I think a trader could benefit from systems if he used them properly.

 

I have basically 2 "systems". 1 for trading a range and the other for trading a move or a trend. Breakouts I consider to be either trend continuation or trend reversal. But, I pretty much do the same thing each time in each system. The trick is knowing whether we are trending or ranging. I do not know if I would trust a system to tell me if a market is ranging or trending.

 

So, the systems that are one size fits all are probably a waste of time. A trend trading system will probably end up costing you money if you try to use it in a ranging market and a range trading system would end up costing you money in a trending market.

 

But I do not see how a trend trading system would be a bad thing if you actually used it to trade a trend. My way of trading a trend and someone else's way of trading a trend are probably not that much different in the long run. and ditto for range trading.

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What is unethical or immoral about selling an indicator or a system? It would be unethical if you bought a system and you got a blank disk. It would be unethical if it failed to enter and exit properly.

 

Buying or selling and indicator or a system is neutral. It's not ethical or unethical. A common mistake that people make is to automatically assign black/white - right/wrong - good/evil to something, when in reality it's just neutral until intentions and desires affect the balance of give and take.

 

I'm not trying to imply that the act of selling a system or indicator, in and of itself, is automatically ethical or unethical.

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Without cost, there is no perceived value.

 

Now we are getting into the realm of how a product should be priced, marketing, value and consumer perceptions.

 

Personally, I now tend to buy mid-range priced, high volume products. That comes from experiences of buying high priced products, thinking that I was getting something superior, and having reliability issues with the product. Some performance products will have better performance, but break down more often.

 

I still need to fight the urge to buy something because it is priced higher. I tend to automatically assign a higher value to a higher price. I don't know what percentage of the population does that, but it is a real phenomena.

 

If a money back guarantee was going to be offered by the seller of a system or indicator, the cost would need to factor in how many returns would be generated. Many people buy junk, and then they never return it when it breaks. Some businesses probably know this, and sell junk, knowing that many people will never ask for their money back.

 

Then there are situations where the consumer is promised some compensation, and it never gets delivered. If the product cost $15 dollars, and it would take 40 hours trying to get your money back, most people just "write-off" the $15 as a loss. If they could make $2,000 in 40 hours of work, but they are only going to get $15 dollars back for 40 hours of work, then they won't bother trying to get their money back.

 

So, a seller of an indicator could price their product very cheaply, then make it almost impossible to get your money back.

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Buying or selling and indicator or a system is neutral. It's not ethical or unethical. A common mistake that people make is to automatically assign black/white - right/wrong - good/evil to something, when in reality it's just neutral until intentions and desires affect the balance of give and take.

 

I'm not trying to imply that the act of selling a system or indicator, in and of itself, is automatically ethical or unethical.

 

Well, If I sell you an indicator and I tell you that it can help you make money and you fail to make money with it, then is that my fault and am I unethical for telling you that it can help you make money?

 

If you purchase a Porsche because you thought it would help you get women and you fail to increase your consumption of women, is that the car's fault?

 

You do not have to answer these. The point is that the trader at some point has to take responsibility for whether he makes money or not.

 

MM

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But the trader is the fool if he thinks he is going to turn the market into a personal ATM.

 

Hopefully scientist will find the "fool" gene and foolishness can be breed out of human beings. :rofl: Until that happens, the inferior humans with the predominant fool gene, will need to learn from pain and hardship.

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The point is that the trader at some point has to take responsibility for whether he makes money or not.

 

MM

 

Good point. For the seller of the trading indicator to be completely transparent and honest, they would need make it very clear to the buyer what the dangers are. So there are two separate issues. The reliability of the system or indicator, and the reliability of the user of the system or indicator.

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humans are naturally poor at valuing things and measuring and assessing financial risk.

There are many experiments that show we act differently - and often irrationally with small changes in values. So yes....marketing and assigning the right value or incentive to manipulate peoples responses is key in how to charge.

When it comes to value, I will happily pay $1000 for something I will use, but figure $10 is a waste of money for something I dont use.

Plus there is the often underestimated value of time and wasted time

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