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zdo

Beyond Livermore

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Beyond Livermore

 

Distilled, purified, simplified -‘Beyond Livermore’ = ‘keep what you take’

By

1. Finding a way NOT to break your own rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps hopefully the 'Beyond' tag will have mitsubishi's blessings. Let us know if you don't think it's appropriate and we'll change the title " and everything"

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I just skimmed a book BobC recommended …

The Inner Voice of Trading by Michael Martin

thx BobC

 

My first comment about the book“… somebody’s been reading my mail”

 

…and that reminds me of an old song about beating the devil – I don't know that it has much to do with the topic at hand but - for free associa's sake, it even has the “reading my mail” phrase in it (and everything ;) )

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faF0wOsVucw]Kris Kristofferson ? To Beat the Devil (1970) - YouTube[/ame]

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:)

Subscribed.

I just downloaded the book.In the introduction it mentions the 80/20 rule..as in 80% in your head.

 

I think I've finally accepted that no amount of theory/backtesting/tehnical stuff etc will silence the voice that is constantly in my head insisting that I do the wrong thing.And boy is that voice a needy character:weak,fearful, pessimistic..sometimes I think he's a demon but I call him Mr Pink and I visualize him as a childrens TV show puppet.That way it's easier not to take him seriously.

 

But there's actually 3 of us here,because I became fed up dealing with Mr Pink,he really was taking up waaay too much of my time and screwing things up.So I invented another character- the voice of reason,Mr Sensible,but I call him Mr Blue.And he is there to deal with Mr Pink so I am free to attend to the things I need to do without so much distraction.

 

This seems to work ok,but I never assume that Mr Pink will give up and go away.At one time I thought he would quit,but he knows he only has to wait for a weak moment to start causing mischief,and the game is never over unless I quit trading and go do something else.And that is not gonna happen.Which means that Mr blue occasionally has to go on refresher programmes and motivational seminars- so I will read this book and follow this thread with interest.;)

 

‘keep what you take’

By

 

2- ignoring Mr Pink

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:)

Subscribed.

I just downloaded the book.In the introduction it mentions the 80/20 rule..as in 80% in your head.

 

I think I've finally accepted that no amount of theory/backtesting/tehnical stuff etc will silence the voice that is constantly in my head insisting that I do the wrong thing.And boy is that voice a needy character:weak,fearful, pessimistic..sometimes I think he's a demon but I call him Mr Pink and I visualize him as a childrens TV show puppet.That way it's easier not to take him seriously.

 

But there's actually 3 of us here,because I became fed up dealing with Mr Pink,he really was taking up waaay too much of my time and screwing things up.So I invented another character- the voice of reason,Mr Sensible,but I call him Mr Blue.And he is there to deal with Mr Pink so I am free to attend to the things I need to do without so much distraction.

 

This seems to work ok,but I never assume that Mr Pink will give up and go away.At one time I thought he would quit,but he knows he only has to wait for a weak moment to start causing mischief,and the game is never over unless I quit trading and go do something else.And that is not gonna happen.Which means that Mr blue occasionally has to go on refresher programmes and motivational seminars- so I will read this book and follow this thread with interest.;)

 

‘keep what you take’

By

 

2- ignoring Mr Pink

 

Mr. Pink represents all things that are not real. Any compromise between Mr. Pink and Mr. Blue is a profit for Mr. Pink. Phuck Mr. Pink.

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Mr. Pink represents all things that are not real. Any compromise between Mr. Pink and Mr. Blue is a profit for Mr. Pink. Phuck Mr. Pink.

 

Indeed.....how?

 

The message you've entered is too short.Please enter more characters....

 

Ok,ladies and gentlemen (and idiots),please give a warm welcome to.... Mr Mantra.

 

:applaud::cinema:

 

Thank you.Today i'd like to talk about what i'm always talking about....

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is mr pink a lesbian trapped in a… ? :confused::)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lü Dongbin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides the ‘trading exploits in the head’ parallels, imo it is helpful to look at Jesse in some other, but irrevocably linked to going Beyond ( as in keeping your take) , areas of our lives. It is not meaningless to look at and compare one’s relationships with the other ‘sex’ ( the feminine in most our cases herein…etc.)

 

His trading talents and distinctive trading perceptual and choice acumen (neural net development and 'wiring', etc), his chronic depressive fluid net states, his relationships, etc etc. are all inextricably linked...esp. to 'keeping the take'...

Edited by zdo

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Not sure how Mr Pink turned into a lesbian....and leaving aside for a sec why JL was married to the wrong woman which possibly affected him "keeping the take"...

It's probably not possible to "phuck Mr Pink"(since he is not going anywhere) and so,like many things,a compromise must be struck.So Mr Pink is allowed to enter before confirmation..which is a long way from entering anywhere and anytime he/she feels like it-compromise.

The Inner Voice In Trading talks about finding a trading style that suits your personality being most important.That is going to involve making a deal with Mr Pink that includes a red line that shouldn't be crossed.Total annhilation of Mr Pink is not possible.

If you think it is then you probably don't know what you're dealing with.A perfectly formed organism who's tenacity for survival is matched only by it's hostility to your sense of peace,calm and wellbeing :)

 

If JL had made such a deal,a compromise,then it may not have been necessary to blow his brains out...maybe.

Edited by mitsubishi

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If JL had made such a deal,a compromise,then it may not have been necessary to blow his brains out...maybe.

 

may be ... but

(even though I linked things ‘inextricably’ dynamically, I did not make a strong link in his experiences of ‘his story’, etc. ie)

I doubt his experiences of trading triggered the ‘necessity’ to blow his own brains out. More likely they prevented it, diminished the ideations of suicide… for many, many years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a thank you note

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdVAqxNLXiw]Yellow - Coldplay - YouTube[/ame]

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(In this crazy tl world, I don’t know if it should be said that it should be noted or not - but erring on the side of caution...)

 

It should be noted – we are NOT discussing ‘drawdowns’ in this thread.

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Mits, these inner colored people (and no, not being racist :) )… these ‘figures’

how much are they literal? with 'dialogue', etc

how much are they figurative? illustrative of tendencies, oscillating tensions, etc.

Thanks.

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(In this crazy tl world, I don’t know if it should be said that it should be noted or not - but erring on the side of caution...)

 

It should be noted – we are NOT discussing ‘drawdowns’ in this thread.

 

Keep what you take by-

 

3-going beyond discussions on drawdowns

 

4- not blowing your brains out,which is the ultimate drawdown

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Mits, these inner colored people (and no, not being racist :) )… these ‘figures’

how much are they literal? with 'dialogue', etc

how much are they figurative? illustrative of tendencies, oscillating tensions, etc.

Thanks.

 

 

There is def dialogue.The market is very repetitive,so what they're saying is very repetitive and boring so I distract myself and tune out whenever possible.

Setting limit orders partly satisfies Pink's need to be in the market.But naturally when price is getting close he starts insisting we get in early in case the market doesn't quite get there- greed and fear.If we relent because today we think he may have a point,he immediately starts coming on like a hopeless dieter who has just raided the cookie jar.

"oh my god what have I done...why didn't I listen to Mr Blue?"-fear

 

But it really isn't the crisis he imagines it to be.He just enjoys living on his nerves.I know that there is no way to make him happy.

If the trade is working,for example,he will just say " If you are such a brilliant analyst then why didn't you load up some more contracts huh?"

If it isn't working,he accepts no responsibility whatsoever.In fact he would be excellent at writing out the small print at the bottom of your insurance policy.

'You shoulda listened to Mr Blue you dumbass"

 

Mr blue is telepathic..He knows what we're thinking and we know what he's gonna not say before he doesn't say it:)

 

Mr Blue knows we are not scared of the market.

Mr pink is terrified of it but desperately wants to nail every little swing.

 

Mr pink knows he's the bad guy and enjoys his reputation.And he feels safe 'cos he knows we don't want to annihilate him (we can't anyway).We need him.Without Mr pink Mr Blue would take over.And Mr Blue believes because he's the sensible cautious wise one that he is always right.So if Mr Pink was annihilated (which he can't be) we would conclude that we are always right. And that would be a disaster,sooner or later.And Mr Pink knows that....

 

Did that answer your question?

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Indeed.....how?

 

The message you've entered is too short.Please enter more characters....

 

Ok,ladies and gentlemen (and idiots),please give a warm welcome to.... Mr Mantra.

 

:applaud::cinema:

 

Thank you.Today i'd like to talk about what i'm always talking about....

 

I will rephrase my statement and replace not real with irrational. Mr. Pink represents all your irrational thoughts.

 

He sabotages your trade plan.

 

This is not to say that I do not have a version of Mr. Pink, nor to say that I am a level headed trader. I am euphoric when I have a wining trade, and pissed off when I have a loser. There is no point in attempting to suppress those feelings when they occur quite naturally in me.I completely think my next trade will be a loser after I have a losing trade. Why wouldn't I think that? However, my euphoria or anger have little to do with whether or not I will take the next trade.

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Mr Pink doesn't understand why he gets such a bad press.

He believes saying "what if"? is a perfectly reasonable statement.Even Mr Blue knows the market isn't perfect.

 

Pink doesn't wanna die of cancer but says it's ok to have a cigarette now.."one more wont kill you right now,we've cut down.. right? not quit".

OTOH Mr Blue,logical as he is,has failed in his attempts to get me to quit completely.

Blue believes Pink is thwarting his attempts.Pink believes Blue should get a life.

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Systems or Discretionary Trading? | MartinKronicle

A bit more from Michael Martin

Is DISCRETION Mr. Pink?

And a mechnical system Mr Blue?

bobc

 

 

That's a very good question Bob.thanks,i really had to think about that for quite a while

What you suggest would seem very logical.But i'm just not sure things are that simple.

If a discretionary decision is made that turns out to be a great call,then Mr Blue will claim the credit since he assumes he always does the right thing regardless of how things turn out.And he believes that there is an X factor to trading that comes with experience.Blue believes there must be a payoff for the 1000's of hours of screen time beyond doing things by the numbers.

Whereas if a discretionary decision is made that turns out to be incorrect Mr Pink will get the blame.

So that hypothesis suggests that they are both capable and willing to make discretionary decisions.

Perhaps Pink feels we could be 100% discretionary and Blue knows(?) we can't.

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That's a very good question Bob.thanks,i really had to think about that for quite a while

What you suggest would seem very logical.But i'm just not sure things are that simple.

If a discretionary decision is made that turns out to be a great call,then Mr Blue will claim the credit since he assumes he always does the right thing regardless of how things turn out.And he believes that there is an X factor to trading that comes with experience.Blue believes there must be a payoff for the 1000's of hours of screen time beyond doing things by the numbers.

Whereas if a discretionary decision is made that turns out to be incorrect Mr Pink will get the blame.

So that hypothesis suggests that they are both capable and willing to make discretionary decisions.

Perhaps Pink feels we could be 100% discretionary and Blue knows(?) we can't.

 

Hi Mitsubishi

So Pink and Blue are interchangable?

We can be wrong both ways.

bobc

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Hi Mitsubishi

So Pink and Blue are interchangable?

We can be wrong both ways.

bobc

 

So is mr pink ‘counseling’ you to hold on to any given losing trade longer and deeper than you originally ‘planned’ ?

 

 

There's a crane fly the other side of the window.While I've been grappling with these very good questions and self examination,he's been attempting to extricate himself from a spiders web.Hanging from a single strand he has just one leg trapped.And he's being very careful not to get any other legs caught,and is actually using another leg to try to lever the trapped leg off.Just when you think he's exhausted and given up he tries some more.Maybe there's no spider there.Maybe this is an old web.

What's the stop loss on this 'trade' ? Death,either by exhaustion/starvation or there is a spider not far away.

 

Can a crane fly/trader avoid losing trades? No.But the trader can decide how long the pain continues.

Neither Pink or Blue loves losing trades.I see many non-psychologists try to convince us we should love them.I don't think Mr Martin is a psychologist is he?...

 

You might think that Pink would stay in a losing trade until the bitter end.But the thing is he isn't anymore comfortable in a losing trade than Blue.You could argue that because he wants to feel good at all times that it is he that would blink first.He might even want to get out before the stop is hit,Blue could be the one that insists we wait....

 

Is setting a stop at an exact price the optimum approach? It might appear so purely because it can be quantified and tested in advance.But do you have rules that are flexible enough to allow for context re your stop?

One stop I have is called the momentum stop.If the market makes a quick move against me that is relatively large within recent context then that is a good sign that I have read it wrong.If it moves slowly towards my stop,then I have more time to evaluate the situation.

 

So I do think that "interchangeable" is a factor.And I also think that it's not a simple case of Blue=good guy,Pink= bad guy.

So I agree with the non-psychologists that we have to design a trading method that is a good fit on all fronts as much as possible.And it may be very telling that we tend to get to this realization very late in the learning curve.

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...

So I do think that "interchangeable" is a factor.And I also think that it's not a simple case of Blue=good guy,Pink= bad guy.

.

So how would mrpink and mrblue blow up an account?

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So how would mrpink and mrblue blow up an account?

 

Who is running the Fed,Mr Pink or Mr Blue ?

 

As I understood it,there were many Mr Blues before the global crisis who believed all the bagholders were holding bags....

 

Maybe they believed the 3 laws-

 

 

1.Mr Blue may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2.Mr Blue must obey the orders given to him by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3.Mr Blue must protect his own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law

 

 

Rule 4 zdo should decide which zdo imposed thread rules he's going to stick to...

 

(In this crazy tl world, I don’t know if it should be said that it should be noted or not - but erring on the side of caution...)

 

It should be noted – we are NOT discussing ‘drawdowns’ in this thread.

 

...a little unfair of me to bring that up maybe..;)

 

Since the question here seems to perpertuate the myth that PINK= bad guy Blue=good guy let's consider some things that Mr Blue could decide to do that could break any of the 3 laws.

Anyone got any ideas?

 

Remember when you were in that well paid career/running that lucrative business before Mr Blue suggested you take a massive pay cut in order to learn how to trade?

Thanks Mr Blue,i think you just broke one of the 3 laws.And we haven't even started trading yet.Is this an irrational Mr Pink decision? Presumabit (and I can invent words for da hell of it) MightyMouse would "phuck Pink" at this point....oh no,i don't think he did :)

 

Blew out the first account,cost of education,fair enough.Mr Pink admits he didn't stick to the rules all the time..but maintains that the trading plan designed by Mr Blue.....sucks real bad.

 

Mr Blue decides he's gonna hedge this trade against Mr Pink's advice.Thanks Mr Blue,you just limited our profits on that one.

 

Mr Blue decides a tight stop will protect his account from blowing up.The account dies due to commission costs and death by a 1000 cuts.Chalk another one up to Captain Sensible.

 

 

Mr Blue decides we need to go back to the drawing board.Hey,genius,how long is this self imposed financial downsizing gonna last...don't you got a family to feed?

 

 

Mr Blue comes back armed with a better trading plan and a bigger trading account.Part of the problem,you see,is that Blue has decided he was underfunded in the first place.Presumably he believes that Mr Pink will be easier to control than he was last time...even though Blue has done absolutely nothing to fix him.....:shocked::doh:

 

Mmm,,,does that sound sensible or does that sound like Mr Blue is crossing his fingers?

Maybe Blue believes his trading plan is sooo good Pink will just roll over and play dead.

Maybe he didn't hear the old cliché"It's different this time" I think I hear the sound of a doodle bug with it's engine about to cut out and fall outta da sky and hit the house.

But don't worry,Mrs Blue has already taken steps to protect the finances...by planning to leave him in the near future,taking the kids,house,most of their possesions and a nice chunk of his future earnings.

And if that actually happens it will all be Mr Pinks fault and Mr Pink will be taken to the shrink if Mr Blue has designed a trading plan good enough to replace the $200 a week he coulda got working at Mcdonalds.....Hey,mr Blue,didn't you used to be somebody?

 

I don't know about you,but at this point i'm beginning to think i'll take my chances with Mr Pink and the magic 8 ball.At least it will all soon be over one way or another and we can get back to living like normal dysfunctional people.:roll eyes:

 

There may be a case to say that if you're a trader then Mr Blue has left the building permanently.

Mr Blue would be much happier being a quant and never actually trading if he is unable to live in harmony with Mr Pink.

 

Without Pink there would be no leaders,,do leaders take risks,calculated,but risks?

What champion racing driver hasn't taken life threatening risks? Which original thinker,artist,inventor was scared of failing?

To be scared of Mr Pink is to be scared of the market,scared money.

 

Don't be scared of Mr Pink,embrace him and learn to live in harmony with him and don't assume that everything that goes wrong is down to him..that is delusion.

 

All the above maybe crap,but for some reason (crazy TL;) ) I 've been put on the spot and asked to psycho analyse myself.Ever tried that yourself?

 

At this point you'd think a professional would turn up here........:roll eyes:

Edited by mitsubishi

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Finally, Now I know behind Mr. Jesse Livemore is Mitsubishi!!! Ha Ha Ha.

 

“Jesse Livermore, the legendary "Boy Plunger" and "Great Bear of Wall Street" in his office in 1929 just after the "Crash"--when he went short the market and made over 100 million dollars. His powers were at their highest. His life slid downhill from here--ten years later he would kill himself. “

 

Why he can do it right in trading, but he can not do it right in life? Is he a successful trader?

 

Honestly it's quite different experiences what I learned from Market, market teaches me to embrace simple life happily since every successful trades always comes with thankfulness, and mindset do thing righteously in time.

 

“Livemore sometimes did not follow his own rules strictly.”

 

In trading, probably you can only control your own rules, but the rules will start to change once it starts to interact with others which is not controlled by you. So is there any rule become the truth? Even there is rules, there is always a parameter that you can not control, I bet you can not sustain the lost of 62% like Mr. Buffett, am I right? Cheers.

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Mits....as I know you like simplicity....

Maybe Mr Pink is simply impulsive and acts purely on the latest thought.

Mr Blue is able to stop and think beyond a few steps.

 

From Mr Livermores point of view.....Mr Pink sounds like he ran roughshod over Mr Blue in the final decision of his life...but that it was likely Mr Pink that both allowed him the ability to be able to amass the fortune and the skills to loose it.

 

We all have Mr Pinks and Blues....often they mix and become Mr Lilac, but hey where is the fun in being Mr Lilac.....

 

The best Mr Blue is one who is really in control BUT also knows when to let Mr Pink on and off the leash.....some people need an external Mr Pink or a Mr Blue.

 

.............

given the current house renovations.....colour choices are topical at the moment. We are going all white!

 

(for those interested - research Phillip Matthews hedge fund manager....he does not mind letting Mr Pink work for him in trading)

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    • Forex trading is a genuine business and in that capacity ought to be moved toward like one. Obviously there are a chosen few traders who begun without a FX training and have turned out to be fruitful .
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