Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

draz

Opening a LLC

Recommended Posts

I am currentlly trading YM futures in an individual account. I was wondering if anyone can advise me if it would be beneficial to open a limited liability corporation or maybe another type of corp like and s or a c?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am currentlly trading YM futures in an individual account. I was wondering if anyone can advise me if it would be beneficial to open a limited liability corporation or maybe another type of corp like and s or a c?

 

 

I'm no expert but I did incorporate as an LLC this year. I now perform all my trading activities under this LLC. I did some research and an LLC seems good for my needs.

 

If you are serious about trading I would think forming some type of legal entity to trade under would be beneficial. My main reason was to treat my trading as a business. Under an LLC all trading related expenses can be written off (computer, trade shows, books, classes, and ebooks) immediately against your profits - which is not true for trading as an individual.

 

For most people an LLC seemed like the choice to go. If I remember correctly I picked an LLC for the simplicity of the paper work, simplicity in tax reporting and I will be making withdrawals from the company for my salary. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, a major reason to choose a corporation (instead of an LLC) was to build wealth - that is if you were not going to be taking money out of your trading profits as regular salary but instead building a nest egg, then a corporation had some benefit over an LLC.

 

Again, you'll want to do more research. However, you'll probably find an LLC is the way to go.

 

ou may also find these links interesting:

Green Trader Tax

Traders Accounting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Single member LLC's are disregarded for tax purposes. In that case S corp makes more sense. Lower chance or IRS audit for trading expense write off, but more paperwork. I don't have time to field your questions it would take hours and I am no expert. I used Paul Mann, daytradertax.com. He gave me a free hour consult and charged me $600 I think several years ago. Stay away from traders accounting they make it too damn complicated and are quite $$$$. Green is good, but $$$$.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to caution anyone about giving or receiving advice on this subject because it is so situationally specific. For example, in many states [but not all] a single-member LLC can be started and elect S Corporation status. You loose one of the main benefits of organizing in that fashion in that you will have extra tax paperwork, but then you're in business to make money - so who cares about the paperwork volume, so long as it is managable and doesn't cost you the ability to generate revenue right? But if you're not focused on this new found responsibility and you make a few key mistakes, it can cost 'DIY'ers a pretty penny and a nasty visit from the IRS. So while establishing an entity is definitely the right move longterm for any trader who is doing this for significant income, take your time and learn what you need to execute this process properly.

 

:2c:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Andre
I want to caution anyone about giving or receiving advice on this subject because it is so situationally specific. For example, in many states [but not all] a single-member LLC can be started and elect S Corporation status. You loose one of the main benefits of organizing in that fashion in that you will have extra tax paperwork, but then you're in business to make money - so who cares about the paperwork volume, so long as it is managable and doesn't cost you the ability to generate revenue right? But if you're not focused on this new found responsibility and you make a few key mistakes, it can cost 'DIY'ers a pretty penny and a nasty visit from the IRS. So while establishing an entity is definitely the right move longterm for any trader who is doing this for significant income, take your time and learn what you need to execute this process properly.

 

:2c:

 

If not for tax reasons, the most important benefit of an LLC or any other type of limited liability company is exactly that, limited liability. It doesn't matter if you're day trading, you don't hold positions overnight, have stop losses in place. Something extremely bad can happen, and an LLC is the only way you'll not have to shoot yourself if that happens. Please, don't ruin you, your family and relatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off - I think the best advice you can get is to talk this over with your lawyer and or accountant. I would quickly review IRS publication 550, which you can download at IRS.GOV. Read the section around page 79 called "Special Rules for Traders in Securities". This will arm you with just enough information to talk to your lawyer or accountant and see if they know anything about tax rules for Traders - if they don't (and most will not) I'd find one who does rather than you footing the bill so they can learn.

 

With that said, I dont' see much of a benefit to forming an LLC or any other special entity unless you have an unusual tax or legal reason. As far as i can see the best possible reason to do this is that your lawyer or CPA will make several thousand dollars in fees from you for setting it up and make thousands more every year to maintain the entity and prepare extra tax returns for you. Of course this doesn't benefit you but it will help your lawyer or CPA pay their bills.

 

In most cases I think all the tax benefits available under a special purpose entity like an LLC can be taken individually. I don't think the "less chance of an IRS Audit" is a good reason unless you have an intention of cheating on your taxes. Your odds of getting audited are very low in any event. Your best course of action is to understand the tax laws, or have your accountant/lawyer advise you on them so you can know what you are entitled to.

 

As for liability - I don't understand what liability you'd be escaping. If you think you'd protect your trading account if you had some other liability issue then think again, your ownership interest in the entity (Corp or LLC) would be an asset someone could levy a judgement against just as easily as they could get a judgement against an account in your name (well almost as easy).

 

Please consider that while I am an accountant I don't have more than a passing personal knowledge of these areas and these are my opinions based on very little research. You need to either research this matter to your own satisfaction or hire a knowledgeable professional to advise you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Andre

Thanks for the legal questions Cruiser. Despite what me, you or anyone can say, if daz wants to get serious about it he should talk to a lawyer. Period.

Speaking of liability again - correct if I'm wrong. Assume you are the sole proprietorship and maganer of the company:

 

- LLC will never protect you from tax lawsuits or anything illegal. That is, if your LLC doesn't pay a pax, your personal assets are liable to it.

- Your interest in the LLC will be always considered your personal asset, so If you have say some personal debt, your LLC stake may be seized to pay for the debt.

- What a LLC can do is to protect your business risk, it separates the LLC assets from your personal asset. Think about a Long-Term Capital blow-up situation. A huge gap, something that completely wipes out the LLC assets and then some. The LLC can go bankrupt and the creditors can't seize your personal assets to pay for the LLC assets that may be left. That is, always provided that the case against you or the LLC doesn't relate to anything illegal - misrepresentation, fraud, taxes, etc.

 

This last situation is the biggest plus of any limited liability company in my view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, you talk to a lawyer and an accountant.

but it is also important to hear other people's experience.

lawyers and accountants are not perfect,

they have traps and agendas, just like you and me.

you cannot trust anything from an anonymous forum,

but you can still get a pointer or two,

maybe an overlooked question,

maybe a misplaced priority,

at any rate, it is good to know what to think over before meeting the professionals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"... if daz wants to get serious about it he should talk to a lawyer. Period..."

 

This is true (and/or a CPA). The biggest thing in my post above someone should definitely do is to read the one page mentioned in the IRS Publication 550 so when they are selecting a tax advisor they can use the buzzwords there to find out if the tax advisor knows anything about trading taxation. It is not a frequent topic so to just pick anyone would be like taking your battery operated hybrid car to a local mechanic that never worked on one. Sure he is in a better position to figure it out than you are, but do you want to be the one he figures it out on?

 

"A huge gap, something that completely wipes out the LLC assets and then some. The LLC can go bankrupt and the creditors can't seize your personal assets to pay for the LLC assets that may be left"

 

This is true. It would also be true if for some reason one had a separate office location for trading, especially if you ever had employees. Those activities could involve liability strictly related to the business, such as a slip and fall of a . I guess I was interjecting my own practices and plan here as I can't foresee myself getting into such a situation, or the risk of it being so low in my personal case that it wouldn't be worth the cost & bother. Of course I'm just starting out so the future could change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Be careful who you blame.   I can tell you one thing for sure.   Effective traders don’t blame others when things start to go wrong.   You can hang onto your tendency to play the victim, or the martyr… but if you want to achieve in trading, you have to be prepared to take responsibility.   People assign reasons to outcomes, whether based on internal or external factors.   When traders face losses, it's common for them to blame bad luck, poor advice, or other external factors, rather than reflecting on their own personal attributes like arrogance, fear, or greed.   This is a challenging lesson to grasp in your trading journey, but one that holds immense value.   This is called attribution theory. Taking responsibility for your actions is the key to improving your trading skills. Pause and ask yourself - What role did I play in my financial decisions?   After all, you were the one who listened to that source, and decided to act on that trade based on the rumour. Attributing results solely to external circumstances is what is known as having an ‘external locus of control’.   It's a concept coined by psychologist Julian Rotter in 1954. A trader with an external locus of control might say, "I made a profit because the markets are currently favourable."   Instead, strive to develop an "internal locus of control" and take ownership of your actions.   Assume that all trading results are within your realm of responsibility and actively seek ways to improve your own behaviour.   This is the fastest route to enhancing your trading abilities. A trader with an internal locus of control might proudly state, "My equity curve is rising because I am a disciplined trader who faithfully follows my trading plan." Author: Louise Bedford Source: https://www.tradinggame.com.au/
    • SELF IMPROVEMENT.   The whole self-help industry began when Dale Carnegie published How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936. Then came other classics like Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins toward the end of the century.   Today, teaching people how to improve themselves is a business. A pure ruthless business where some people sell utter bullshit.   There are broke Instagrammers and YouTubers with literally no solid background teaching men how to be attractive to women, how to begin a start-up, how to become successful — most of these guys speaking nothing more than hollow motivational words and cliche stuff. They waste your time. Some of these people who present themselves as hugely successful also give talks and write books.   There are so many books on financial advice, self-improvement, love, etc and some people actually try to read them. They are a waste of time, mostly.   When you start reading a dozen books on finance you realize that they all say the same stuff.   You are not going to live forever in the learning phase. Don't procrastinate by reading bull-shit or the same good knowledge in 10 books. What we ought to do is choose wisely.   Yes. A good book can change your life, given you do what it asks you to do.   All the books I have named up to now are worthy of reading. Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, Robert Greene — these guys are worthy of reading. These guys teach what others don't. Their books are unique and actually, come from relevant and successful people.   When Richard Branson writes a book about entrepreneurship, go read it. Every line in that book is said by one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time.   When a Chinese millionaire( he claims to be) Youtuber who releases a video titled “Why reading books keeps you broke” and a year later another one “My recommendation of books for grand success” you should be wise to tell him to jump from Victoria Falls.   These self-improvement gurus sell you delusions.   They say they have those little tricks that only they know that if you use, everything in your life will be perfect. Those little tricks. We are just “making of a to-do-list before sleeping” away from becoming the next Bill Gates.   There are no little tricks.   There is no success-mantra.   Self-improvement is a trap for 99% of the people. You can't do that unless you are very, very strong.   If you are looking for easy ways, you will only keep wasting your time forgetting that your time on this planet is limited, as alive humans that is.   Also, I feel that people who claim to read like a book a day or promote it are idiots. You retain nothing. When you do read a good book, you read slow, sometimes a whole paragraph, again and again, dwelling on it, trying to internalize its knowledge. You try to understand. You think. It takes time.   It's better to read a good book 10 times than 1000 stupid ones.   So be choosy. Read from the guys who actually know something, not some wannabe ‘influencers’.   Edit: Think And Grow Rich was written as a result of a project assigned to Napoleon Hill by Andrew Carnegie(the 2nd richest man in recent history). He was asked to study the most successful people on the planet and document which characteristics made them great. He did extensive work in studying hundreds of the most successful people of that time. The result was that little book.   Nowadays some people just study Instagram algorithms and think of themselves as a Dale Carnegie or Anthony Robbins. By Nupur Nishant, Quora Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/    
    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
    • $CSCO Cisco Systems stock, nice top of range breakout, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?CSCOSEPN Septerna stock watch for a bottom breakout, good upside price gap
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.