Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

theman

Institutions Buying Vs Traders

Recommended Posts

Hi there

 

EOTPRO have a new indicator that plots 3 subgraphs (indicator),

 

the 1st one shows you how many novice traders (so to speak) are buying/selling

 

the 2nd shows the how many professional traders are buy/selling

 

the 3rd one shows you how many institutions are buy/selling. The institutions being the big boys in trading.

 

So, if a novice (1st one) are selling, there making the wrong move as the 3rd subgraph i.e. institutions are buying.

 

So youre not supposed to trade like small traders i.e. 1st one, you go with the Institution traders i.e. 3rd one.

 

Dont know if this makes sense?

 

 

 

I hope you can help me?

 

Thanks

Edited by stanlyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My hunch is that their breaking order sizes into "small", "medium", and "large" (such as 1-10 = small, 10-50 = medium, 50+ large, or whatever), and then doing volume at bid/ask for each.

 

Not too complicated, and the concept has some definite uses. Not sure if you could trade straight off it, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My hunch is that their breaking order sizes into "small", "medium", and "large" (such as 1-10 = small, 10-50 = medium, 50+ large, or whatever), and then doing volume at bid/ask for each.

 

 

Wouldn't the use of iceberg orders really make this an inaccurate view? I dont know, i would be very careful of anyone selling something that looks like it actually can make money. If it could actually make money there's no need to sell it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you can see, the orange one is where you get the novice traders selling (when its below the 0 line i.e. white line), but if you look at the purple line I put, the institutions are buying (when its above the 0 line i.e. white line), and if you look at the chart, thats what happened.

 

How cool!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wouldn't the use of iceberg orders really make this an inaccurate view? I dont know, i would be very careful of anyone selling something that looks like it actually can make money. If it could actually make money there's no need to sell it.

 

Exactly, I think you are right. I also agree with atto in how it is choosing to segment. Iceberging certainly happens quite a lot, and I have tried to measure that by rebuilding 1 seconds worth of ticks. However, I read there are also more involved methods of iceberging then just sending a stream of small orders in close succession. I have explored various types of volume breakdown segmenting in the past. I didn't find any consistent mechanical edge there. Using discretion, there may well be an advantage.

 

A model like this, you also assume that each order is a directional bet and they actually want the price to move the way they are pushing. I used to believe this, but have since revised my beliefs.

 

With kind regards,

MK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

keep in mind that just because it worked today does not mean it will work tomorrow and being consistent is the hard part of the game. So maybe you keep an eye on this indicator daily, log it's gains and losses over 6 months and see what the results are. Then think about how it works or doesn't work in a trading plan. I would be up for hearing the results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
keep in mind that just because it worked today does not mean it will work tomorrow and being consistent is the hard part of the game. So maybe you keep an eye on this indicator daily, log it's gains and losses over 6 months and see what the results are. Then think about how it works or doesn't work in a trading plan. I would be up for hearing the results.

 

Exactly....................... the bloke's only developed this a week ago and it can't be backtested as it only runs on live data.

 

So he's only eyeballing the nice trades, amazing how the human mind can spot these.

 

Cheers

 

Blu-Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceberg orders would be a serious issue as the goal there is to make it look like many smaller orders. Open ECry has a nice Iceberg feature and here is what the user guide says about icebergs:

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=7341&stc=1&d=1216680964

 

Order user guide attached to post for anyone that could use it. Nice info in there, even if not using OEC.

 

===============================

 

As for the indicator, give it a test in real-time and see how it goes. It looks like you got a trial or purchased it, so give it a go and report back what you find. Real-time will be the key obviously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceburging would be a huge problem, and it's trivial for large size traders to do this. Hiding order size isn't the only reason to break up trades, by the way. Additionally, any arbing or hedging could actually go the other direction, even in huge size. The ES isn't a closed market, people trade it many different ways.

 

I examined a few charts with this indicator on them, and I couldn't find a significant edge (small sample size, but these were cherry picked charts to begin with). In fact, a few times, the small orders led the market much sooner. This whole setup also assumes that bid/ask volume is correct, and truely represents buying/selling exactly (it doesn't). Also, I noticed an undo emphasis was placed on the zero line, but in reality, that shouldn't have that much more significance than any other line.. a "slightly below the zero line, so they're net sellers, so it's ok to short" is not very different than a "slightly above..." in terms of actual orders. Finally, this assumes that everyone is trading on the same timeframe. A 60 minute chart trader enters in a zone he defines as "buy" or "sell", regardless of the micro movements below him, and regardless of his size.

 

The concept seems interesting, and may be a good tool, but it isn't as simple as he leads you to believe, in my opinion. If he finds this thread, I welcome him to respond to these issues.. I'd love to be wrong about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I to ran across this new indicator on Richard's site and it seems like a good idea. I follow his posts every now and then and he's really geeked about his new baby: the "Volume Splatter" indicator. Yes, it may now work well because it is so new and thus does not have a lot of back testing behind it. Yet, I'm interested in how he does it.

 

Two basic things are going on here:

 

1) Richard is splitting the different traders into three camps (small traders, medium traders and big traders). Each camp has it's own indicator window. It appears Richard is, for example, defining "big" traders as those who initiate a position with 51 or more contracts. Does anyone have an idea how this information is obtained in TradeStation with EasyLanguage? How does he split the “big” traders from the “small” or “medium” sized traders?

 

2) It then appears he takes the amount of volume to build the size of the dot or "splatter" mark for each of the appropriate camps. Once we have the different traders split apart what would be a good way to compute the size of the dot?

 

I think it’s an interesting concept but I’m not clear on how this can be done with EL. Hopefully someone with more experience in EL can help me get this started. Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tresor
If there is a trial, get it and try it out for yourself. Report back on what you see.

 

Unfortunately, this indicator will be part of Elite Series (non-standard package) and cannot be trialed.

 

:doh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceberg allows big traders to hide the actual order size. But from my observation... even Iceberg orders can not conceal supply/demand entirely.

 

At key turning points, the DOM leaves a clue. Lets say the bid/ask is around 300 lot each on the ES coming down to support. The bid remains at 300... the tape shows contracts being hit at the bid. The bid falls to 80 contracts, however no matter how many sellers hit the bid the level doesnt drop. In other words, though the bid looks thin enough to get taken out it is holding. The bid is refreshing everytime to lets say around 80 lot. This is showing accumulation at that level. The true order size is hidden at the bid... but the tape is showing buying. Its probably alot better showing this visually... but hope this makes sense.

 

Also, I dont think all exchanges support Iceberg orders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post soultrader. It is true that not all exchanges support iceberg, however it doesn't need to be natively supported to be widely utilized. Brokers and various order entry frontends do simulate it.

 

Your example described above is what I term as passive buying. This is indeed how a lot of the turns occur. Recognizing it in a timely fashion I have found difficult. Its always something I notice in hindsight. I'd like to automate this somehow, but so far I haven't been able to describe it in code properly. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always thought it would be interesting to write an indicator to look at the order book and tape compare orders filled with orders pulled ... add in ease of price movement too maybe. I have always had a hunch that seeing a level refreshed (or orders pulled) would be a good indicator of short term intent.

 

If the splatter plot simply divides by block size and then plots a suitable sized dot it should be pretty trivial to code btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tresor

Maybe someone could give a try and code this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately, this indicator will be part of Elite Series (non-standard package) and cannot be trialed.

 

:doh:

 

Buyer beware if there is no trial offered.

 

If this was as good as advertised, why not let someone give it a go for a week or two? If it is that good, most would surely purchase it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest forsearch

Moreover, a competent software vendor would have the ability to encrypt their source code and time-out the trial to lockout folks who didn't subscribe afterward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How is live testing going on this ? by the way nobody posted a link to the actual product .. I just saw the attached pictures, sorry for the dumb question...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is live testing going on this ? by the way nobody posted a link to the actual product .. I just saw the attached pictures, sorry for the dumb question...

 

Read first post, use google to find product. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • MNST Monster Beverage stock, top of range breakout above 60.45, from Stocks to Watch at https://stockconsultant.com/?MNST
    • there is no avoiding loses to be honest, its just how the market is. you win some and hopefully more, but u do lose some. 
    • Date: 11th July 2025.   Demand For Gold Rises As Trump Announces Tariffs!   Gold prices rose significantly throughout the week as investors took advantage of the 2.50% lower entry level. Investors also return to the safe-haven asset as the US trade policy continues to escalate. As a result, investors are taking a more dovish tone. The ‘risk-off’ appetite is also something which can be seen within the stock market. The NASDAQ on Thursday took a 0.90% dive within only 30 minutes.   Trade Tensions Escalate President Trump has been teasing with new tariffs throughout the week. However, the tariffs were confirmed on Thursday. A 35% tariff on Canadian imports starting August 1st, along with 50% tariffs on copper and goods from Brazil. Some experts are advising that Brazil has been specifically targeted due to its association with the BRICS.   However, the President has not directly associated the tariffs with BRICS yet. According to President Trump, Brazil is targeting US technology companies and carrying out a ‘witch hunt’against former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, a close ally who is currently facing prosecution for allegedly attempting to overturn the 2022 Brazilian election.   Although Brazil is one of the largest and fastest-growing economies in the Americas, it is not the main concern for investors. Investors are more concerned about Tariffs on Canada. The White House said it will impose a 35% tariff on Canadian imports, effective August 1st, raised from the earlier 25% rate. This covers most goods, with exceptions under USMCA and exemptions for Canadian companies producing within the US.   It is also vital for investors to note that Canada is among the US;’s top 3 trading partners. The increase was justified by Trump citing issues like the trade deficit, Canada’s handling of fentanyl trafficking, and perceived unfair trade practices.   The President is also threatening new measures against the EU. These moves caused US and European stock futures to fall nearly 1%, while the Dollar rose and commodity prices saw small gains. However, the main benefactor was Silver and Gold, which are the two best-performing metals of the day.   How Will The Fed Impact Gold? The FOMC indicated that the number of members warming up to the idea of interest rate cuts is increasing. If the Fed takes a dovish tone, the price of Gold may further rise. In the meantime, the President pushing for a 3% rate cut sparked talk of a more dovish Fed nominee next year and raised worries about future inflation.   Meanwhile, jobless claims dropped for the fourth straight week, coming in better than expected and supporting the view that the labour market remains strong after last week’s solid payroll report. Markets still expect two rate cuts this year, but rate futures show most investors see no change at the next Fed meeting. Gold is expected to finish the week mostly flat.       Gold 15-Minute Chart     If the price of Gold increases above $3,337.50, buy signals are likely to materialise again. However, the price is currently retracing, meaning traders are likely to wait for regained momentum before entering further buy trades. According to HSBC, they expect an average price of $3,215 in 2025 (up from $3,015) and $3,125 in 2026, with projections showing a volatile range between $3,100 and $3,600   Key Takeaway Points: Gold Rises on Safe-Haven Demand. Gold gained as investors reacted to rising trade tensions and market volatility. Canada Tariffs Spark Concern. A 35% tariff on Canadian imports drew attention due to Canada’s key trade role. Fed Dovish Shift Supports Gold. Growing expectations of rate cuts and Trump’s push for a 3% cut boosted the gold outlook. Gold Eyes Breakout Above $3,337.5. Price is consolidating; a move above $3,337.50 could trigger new buy signals. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report.   Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Michalis Efthymiou HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Back in the early 2000s, Netflix mailed DVDs to subscribers.   It wasn’t sexy—but it was smart. No late fees. No driving to Blockbuster.   People subscribed because they were lazy. Investors bought the stock because they realized everyone else is lazy too.   Those who saw the future in that red envelope? They could’ve caught a 10,000%+ move.   Another story…   Back in the mid-2000s, Amazon launched Prime.   It wasn’t flashy—but it was fast.   Free two-day shipping. No minimums. No hassle.   People subscribed because they were impatient. Investors bought the stock because they realized everyone hates waiting.   Those who saw the future in that speedy little yellow button? They could’ve caught another 10,000%+ move.   Finally…   Back in 2011, Bitcoin was trading under $10.   It wasn’t regulated—but it worked.   No bank. No middleman. Just wallet to wallet.   People used it to send money. Investors bought it because they saw the potential.   Those who saw something glimmering in that strange orange coin? They could’ve caught a 100,000%+ move.   The people who made those calls weren’t fortune tellers. They just noticed something simple before others did.   A better way. A quiet shift. A small edge. An asymmetric bet.   The red envelope fixed late fees. The yellow button fixed waiting. The orange coin gave billions a choice.   Of course, these types of gains are rare. And they happen only once in a blue moon. That’s exactly why it’s important to notice when the conditions start to look familiar.   Not after the move. Not once it's on CNBC. But in the quiet build-up— before the surface breaks.   Enter the Blue Button Please read more here: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/netflix-amazon-bitcoin-blue  Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
    • What These Attacks Look Like There are several ways you could get hacked. And the threats compound by the day.   Here’s a quick rundown:   Phishing: Fake emails from your “bank.” Click the link, give your password—game over.   Ransomware: Malware that locks your files and demands crypto. Pay up, or it’s gone.   DDoS: Overwhelm a website with traffic until it crashes. Like 10,000 bots blocking the door. Often used by nations.   Man-in-the-Middle: Hackers intercept your messages on public WiFi and read or change them.   Social Engineering: Hackers pose as IT or drop infected USB drives labeled “Payroll.”   You don’t need to be “important” to be a target.   You just need to be online.   What You Can Do (Without Buying a Bunker) You don’t have to be tech-savvy.   You just need to stop being low-hanging fruit.   Here’s how:   Use a YubiKey (physical passkey device) or Authenticator app – Ditch text message 2FA. SIM swaps are real. Hackers often have people on the inside at telecom companies.   Use a password manager (with Yubikey) – One unique password per account. Stop using your dog’s name.   Update your devices – Those annoying updates patch real security holes. Use them.   Back up your files – If ransomware hits, you don’t want your important documents held hostage.   Avoid public WiFi for sensitive stuff – Or use a VPN.   Think before you click – Emails that feel “urgent” are often fake. Go to the websites manually for confirmation.   Consider Starlink in case the internet goes down – I think it’s time for me to make the leap. Don’t Panic. Prepare. (Then Invest.)   I spent an hour in that basement bar reading about cyberattacks—and watching real-world systems fall apart like dominos.   The internet going down used to be an inconvenience. Now, it’s a warning.   Cyberwar isn’t coming. It’s here.   And the next time your internet goes out, it might not just be your router.   Don’t panic. Prepare.   And maybe keep a backup plan in your back pocket. Like a local basement bar with good bourbon—and working WiFi.   As usual, we’re on the lookout for more opportunities in cybersecurity. Stay tuned.   Author: Chris Campbell (AltucherConfidential) Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/   
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.