Why are people attracted to trading?

[Ingot54 13]

Usually these folks have other red flags in their daily dealings (all generalised of course) - eg; they skip shouts at the pub, they cheat on their partner, they think its ok to evade (as opposed to avoiding/minimising) tax, they expand on their achievements, and trivialise their shortcomings (good if you are a salesman)

 

Great post, Siuya. How many of us attempt to minimalise our taxes past the point that we are entitled to?

How many take home the workplace office stationery when we need a note-pad or a pen or pencil?

How many run a red light sometimes, speed sometimes, take right-of-way off other vehicles sometimes, snatch a car parking bay before someone who was waiting before us, and so on.

 

Does the degree of the event make it a crime, or is the crime in the attitude and the intent?

 

We should think about that answer, and then go back and see if it matches what we thought about Rande's Ponzi-man. Is he more guilty because it was a large amount of funds, or is he equally guilty with the person who steals the office stationery ... "It's just a pencil"!

 

Which "crime" had the most intent? The one with the biggest impact financially, which mushrooms into an unintended consequence ... or the one that involved thinking: "It's ok ... it's not of much value, it won't be missed" and probably continues to be perpetuated for years in the office.

 

Personally I think I am just as guilty of wrong-doing when I take home a pencil that I KNOW does not belong to me, as a shop-lifter who walks out of the store wearing a $200 jacket he hopes to get away with.

[Rande Howell 10]

Its the checks and balances that are often missing (I dont have experience with violent offenders but the financial industry definitely throws up life in fast forward and the temptations to many brings out the best and the worst in people... often these people should be in jail...so my experience comes from this microcosm)

You're right there is no black and white and while trying to avoid any moral discussions, often those folks who dont develop a self check (I guess this is part of my description for "self deception", and JohnW of "not knowing yourself") - either through others help, or their own tricks, either become self destructive, or destructive to others. If in doubt you need to err on the side of any high moral ground, and too often people dont - they justify it with excuses such as - everyone else is doing it. (this is very often trotted out as an excuse in the world of finance)

 

Usually these folks have other red flags in their daily dealings (all generalised of course) - eg; they skip shouts at the pub, they cheat on their partner, they think its ok to evade (as opposed to avoiding/minimising) tax, they expand on their achievements, and trivialise their shortcomings (good if you are a salesman)

 

When it comes to trading, when ever you hear excuses, hopes, or denials you know there is trouble. The biggest check is the PL it does not lie.....it often also does not meet our expectations

 

Violent criminals and trading floor financial types have a lot in common. Both have tragic ways of dealing with their humanness. Trading, as a discipline, forces the trader to become aware of the inner community living within the self -- both destructive and constructive. Without management of this inner community, we continue in the old learned patterns and assumptions that become wired into our perception as our biases and beliefs.

 

The necessity of self honesty for this task, I believe, is a key factor in the lack of success for many in trading. In many other domains self deception as an aspect of dishonesty is relatively easy to mask and project away from the self. In trading, it is reflected in the PL. The avoidance of discomfort is central to the way our brain adapts us to survive in this world. It is also this very discomfort, when approached courageously, shows us the path to move beyond our tiny pain to a much greater satisfaction with living. But it does require the courage to be honest with yourself.

 

Long ago I quit working with truly difficult populations because I realized the patterns had turned into concrete. With the violent prisoners, I discovered that I could teach them to manage anger a little better than the guards guarding them, but did not solve the criminal mind that lurked in their inner community. With personal development, I discovered that people wanted a magic fix so that when they left the seminar they had a "high" that they confused with power. In trading, I discovered that a person has to develop the capacity to become self honest and has to focus on long term personal growth to develop the psychology to trade well. Otherwise, they have a tendency to blow up their accounts or their lives. It's an interesting group of people to work with.

 

Rande Howell

[johnw 10]

It is not just individuals who are lost and completely adrift, but entire Countries

have sought to deceive themselves with fictitious accounting presentations

and ridiculous short term remedies to long term problems.

 

This sort of gov. direction creates a playing field in which weak easily seduced

people become caught within a web of their own avarice.

 

In a well managed society, they are less able to succumb to their own self deceit,

but never the less, it lurks just below the surface waiting for a weakness to appear.

 

Now more than ever it is important for Individuals to take control of their own lives

and this is going to demand self honesty, courage and what at first appears to be

sacrifice.

 

Retail Trading is a portal to a new life, but relatively few will make the total commitment

and accept the changes necessary to pass through the door.

[SIUYA 11]

the unfortunate thing is that in reality we are designed to prefer spin. We learn as children that honesty is not the best policy. As a strategy its actually advantageous to be able to spin things to the way we want - not just for own comfort of mind but also in order to appease/please/win over/manipulate others.

This is what can make trading hard - as Rande says - changing what we know already.

 

as an aside - IMO - there has been one thing that has done more damage and caused more problems than many others for this similar reason - creative accounting....... what please explain to me is meant to be creative about accounting!

It actually encourages CEOs, governments, business people, housewives - everyone to put a spin on the numbers.......it even gives people a supposed regulatory safe and secure uniform measure that we can all rely on. (apologies to the accountants who truly love their jobs )

 

and yes Ingot - I agree, a question i ask people sometimes is whats the difference between stealing a 50c chocolate bar, stealing $50,000 from a bank, evading $500,000 in taxes, or running a $50m ponzi scheme......its interesting the responses you get from people. I can draw no implications about peoples responses, but to me, they are first and foremost all stealing, and then its the degree (and intent as Ingot says) that varies. Often people dont want to even recognize this, and the excuses vary, the defenses many.

if nothing else its interesting

[johnw 10]

the unfortunate thing is that in reality we are designed to prefer spin. We learn as children that honesty is not the best policy. As a strategy its actually advantageous to be able to spin things to the way we want - not just for own comfort of mind but also in order to appease/please/win over/manipulate others.

This is what can make trading hard - as Rande says - changing what we know already.

/QUOTE]

 

SIUYA ... Do you mind if I put this into a different context.

 

When we reach the point of stepping outside ourselves and take a clear look at the world, it is not a pretty sight

.... but now we cannot get the genie back in the bottle.

 

We can take an altruistic view to those things that don't measure up as a means of handling the newly created confusion in our mind, or we can park this information in place and a form in our mind that best serves us.

It becomes an anti virus program running silently under the surface, always quietly alerting us, as and when required.

 

Always we are working at keeping the front end of our mind clear in order to take care of the matters at hand ... and to allow it to maintain a sense of cohesion and direction to our feelings.

 

My answer to anyone who brings up a rough time or childhood in their life, is to put the stored knowledge to best use since they have already paid for it.

The knowledge is all there but the brain needs defragging in order to make best use of of our mindful assets.

 

I am rambling now, but I go through a little ritual every morning as I do my exercises

in an effort to ensure my mind is clear and as organised as possible for the day .. weekends included ... the ritual has become a habit.

 

Some days are better than others, and occasionally there are those days where everything is crystal clear and effortless .... there are other days when the outcome is different... but all in all the ritual is here to stay.

[TimRacette 11]

johnw- it's amazing how childhood experiences stay with us long into our adulthood and shape our subconscious actions.

[Rande Howell 10]

johnw- it's amazing how childhood experiences stay with us long into our adulthood and shape our subconscious actions.

 

The limbic system, and particularly the amygdala, does not perceive time in terms of past, present, and future. It experiences everything in the now -- no matter how long ago it happened. This brain structure is also the site of our implicit memories -- or pre-verbal memory. It is where our deepest sense of meaning of self is embedded. Takes a little work to re-wire. But if you going to trade, better start re-wiring.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

johnw - no problems - context is king.

I think we are all talking the same thing....for me what you are talking about is ways of working out how to get the most out of our experiences and our responses to these.

I used to develop tricks for myself (my anti virus solution as you say). They work for me and maybe not for others.

eg; When I was younger I used to get disappointed and angry when people did not reply to party invites in a timely manner, or used to say yes - then not turn up, or drop out at the last minute (we used to have a lot of parties). It should not have bothered me as much as it did but it did. I also knew I could not change their behaviour, nor could I bottle up and change my response (maybe I could). So my answer became a simple trick/method/process for myself.

I developed a strategy of three strikes you are out. Those folks who pissed me off three times just never got invited again, and it turns out that over a short period of time you end up being surrounded by reliable, dependable and enjoyable people.....plus your social circle expands as you are forced to find new friends. . Nowdays - I dont get pissed off with people, I just cut and move on.

 

Much the same as the markets.

Edited May 11, 2011 by SIUYA

[TimRacette 11]

Thanks for all the killer insight Rande.

[Ingot54 13]

The limbic system, and particularly the amygdala, does not perceive time in terms of past,

present, and future. It experiences everything in the now -- no matter how long ago it happened.

This brain structure is also the site of our implicit memories -- or pre-verbal memory. It is where our deepest sense of

meaning of self is embedded. Takes a little work to re-wire. But if you going to trade, better start re-wiring.

 

Rande Howell

 

How should we "re-wire" Rande?

 

Who is going to "re-wire" us? What is going to re-wire us? What kind of new wiring will we have, that is different from the old wiring?

 

A bit surreal, isn't it!! The new cliche ... "hard-wired" ... but I concede it does enable the concept of "it's not my fault" to

be perpetuated. And it does let the marketers of the "Psychological Solution" get a foot in the door with their "re-wiring"

of the nasty problem-brain courses and therapy.

 

The devil will be wearing ice-skates before I let anyone fool around with my hard-wires ... :rofl:

 

And I want to caution people that it is a very dangerous thing to allow anyone to dismantle and reconstruct things that have

become part of the personality since early consciousness. They are things NOT to be meddled with.

 

There is an entire industry dedicated to selling solutions to trading woes. I regard this industry as a parasite. Most of

them have never traded more than an apple for a candy bar in their lives.

 

But the truth about this industry needs to be out in the open - it is bleeding traders with false and tempting offers of a

panacea for issues that are manufactured for marketing purposes. The rot set in when the concept of "market

psychology" or "herd psychology" became the new reasoning under the guidance of people like Alexander Elder.

 

The "psychology of the market" became the "psychology of the trader." You only have to trot out a few testimonials, and a

few "me too's" and voila! you have an entire new industry feeding from the hapless trader.

 

Changing the personality is not going to change the degree of success. A neurotic trader with good habits is going to

out-perform a neurotic trader with bad habits every time ... and no psychologist is going to change that - regardless of

any therapy undertaken for the neurosis!

 

There is a role for therapists in psychological pathology, but to attempt to apply this to vocational pursuits is an

abuse of trust in the profession - and I would say a mis-application of the intent of the profession.

 

This is right off-topic now ... and has little to do with why people are attracted to trading. But it needs to be laid to rest.

 

Traders can change their behaviour by making certain motivated choices. It is really NOT that hard to align the mind

with successful trading traits. The hard bit, is making the decision to become that kind of trader, andactually apply

those principles.

 

This can take three weeks or three months: "Success is a habit."

 

Perhaps reading Og Mandino's "The Greatest Salesman in the World" might lend a few clues ...

 

"I will form good habits and become their slave." For things to change, YOU have to change.

 

The old joke actually has a useful application:

 

"How many Psychiatrists does it take to change a light-bulb .... one ... but the light bulb must W-A-N-T to change"

 

Doing a course with no burning desire, or "want" will probably achieve nothing for a trader. The "answer" is within

and the answer is in words like ... choice, responsibility, accountability and commitment applied to trading activity.

 

The "I WILL ..." spoken with conviction and substance can accomplish more than any phooey hard-re-wiring rubbish.

 

If you are finding that your emotion is overtaking your method, then take a break. Get back in touch with your strategy,

and composure. Just be a person of your word. If you Google "Og Mandino's 10 Scrolls" you will find the complete

book laid open on the Internet. It is short, and can be read in minutes.

 

Contrast what Og Mandino says with what the peripheral and parasitic traders support industry is saying, and a

credibility issue seems to arise.

 

Hope that is cleared up and we can get back on topic.

[johnw 10]

johnw - no problems - context is king.

I think we are all talking the same thing....for me what you are talking about is ways of working out how to get the most out of our experiences and our responses to these.

I used to develop tricks for myself (my anti virus solution as you say). They work for me and maybe not for others.

eg; When I was younger I used to get disappointed and angry when people did not reply to party invites in a timely manner, or used to say yes - then not turn up, or drop out at the last minute (we used to have a lot of parties). It should not have bothered me as much as it did but it did. I also knew I could not change their behaviour, nor could I bottle up and change my response (maybe I could). So my answer became a simple trick/method/process for myself.

I developed a strategy of three strikes you are out. Those folks who pissed me off three times just never got invited again, and it turns out that over a short period of time you end up being surrounded by reliable, dependable and enjoyable people.....plus your social circle expands as you are forced to find new friends. . Nowdays - I dont get pissed off with people, I just cut and move on.

 

Much the same as the markets.

 

Let me get this right SIUYA

 

You live in Aussie and people DID NOT turn up for your parties.... you should have called me

 

I agree with your comments, just change the language and conditions to suit yourself and then they become a part of you.

 

I am just a self taught boy in all this field, but decades ago, when I decided to put more horsepower into something I was doing, I realised that I hated the word "discipline" [ it had attached memories of external enforcement which I did not care for at all] and so ever since I have used the word "habit" which I regard as self initiated... in fact I love the word "habit"

The results from that one seemingly insignificant alteration were spectacular to say the least and lead to a whole slew of alterations ..... but "habit" was the tipping point.

 

What does "disease" conjure up for us ...all sorts of dreadful medical conditions, I imagine.

 

Now try "dis----ease"....and see what you get.

To me this comes up as a state that is outside that of balance, ease etc ... to others it may seem like a play on words, but to me it takes on an entire meaning ... I am out of balance and I do not like it.

 

What has all this to do with trading ..

 

A great deal really IMO.

It is the EDGE that so many people seem to be seeking these days but are looking for outside themselves.

 

One of the best places to watch all this mumbo jumbo in action is in the finals and semis of pro tennis ..... you can actually see into the minds of the Players [some are more open than others] and watch how the changes in feelings translates into a change of body movement.

Edited May 12, 2011 by johnw

[Qiman 10]

HHHMMM. Time is short with a full trading day ahead, but I will write more on this later. As a trader since 1996, and someone who has also been heavily involved in athletics my whole life, I couldn't disagree with Ingot more than I do! Psychologists definitely have an important role to play in many fields outside of "therapy for psychological pathology." For example, there is a good reason many professional athletes have sports psychologists as a key part of their training protocol, because they have a proven track record in increasing peak performance. One of the keys to the Soviet Union and East Germany winning so many medals was the early adoption of sports psychology, while other countries thought athletes should just tough it out and shake it off. An understanding of how the mind actually works is key to so many fields including trading, and just about anybody can improve the peak functioning of their mind through effective training, just like applying athletic training principles to sports can drastically improve performance. More later . . .

[Ingot54 13]

An understanding of how the mind actually works is key to so many fields including trading, and just about anybody can improve the peak functioning of their mind through effective training, just like applying athletic training principles to sports can drastically improve performance. More later . . .

 

No problem with that, Qiman ... actually none whatsoever. My trading is done for the night - Aussie time so I'm on overtime rates now!

 

But I think we are talking about apples and peaches here. Feel free to disagree that trading is different from athletics. To you it may be the same - to me they are vastly different fields. Trading is "you" against "the market" while an athlete strives against others. An athlete will get another day to compete - a trader gets just one shot. Regardless ... I think what you are on about is more aligned to coaching than psychology.

 

Psychologists are more about resolution of fear, tranquility training, being relaxed and overcoming anxiety. I do not dispute there are things in common - goal visualisation, relaxation techniques - (music, mantra, meditation and so on) reconstruction and critique of the event - but none of these actually require a psychologist - traders can do this independently.

 

All of these things the trader can fix himself ... or avoid in the first instance, through being prepared in ways I have outlined to the nth degree now in my posts ... but it's ok ... really ok ... if you don't think a trader can actually do these things without that crutch of a professional psychologist.

 

My position is that you can ... it's fine if you need a psychologist - I do not. I am happy with my wiring, and I do not feel the need to have any of that meddled with or adjusted by someone who doesn't know me, doesn't care about me, and only sees me as another bum-on-seat in his client waiting room.

 

They are obviously here to tout for clients - not one psychologist has stepped forum members through even ONE trade ... and that's because they DON'T trade. Why are psychologists coming onto trading forums? Because that's where the business is. Trading forums are fields rich for the pickings - 95% of traders are said to be failing or failed, and guess who can fix that!

 

Well, after many years of Mark Douglas, Van K Tharp, and the Brett Steenbarger's of the world, those stats are still right up there!! Not a scratch ... not a dent ... not even the shine gone off that figure ... 95% still quoted as the bar to cross to be classed as a trading success.

 

Now do you understand where I am coming from? Or maybe the 5% successful traders have all been to see a psychologist, who whispered the magic formula in their ears! And this to me, is proof that they are simply a yuppi accessory for the well-heeled and lazy traders, who are too challenged to discover a few things for themselves!

 

How much "help" does any psychologist give to traders on this forum? Since when did a psychologist offer anything to forum members for free ... yet members are posting freely EVERY DAY, things that are classified as tips, helpful info, things that work and so on. Not so the psychologist - it's all take and no give.

 

The dialogue is all designed to inform the forum how learned the psychologist is ... and nothing offered at the every-man's level where application of even ONE decent principle would boost their chances of securing a paid client!

 

What I have been objecting to all along, is psychologists who have never traded an apple pie for a cream bun, setting up shop and offering for a minimum $3500 plus extras ... to help traders turn from losers to winners ... and all with no guarantees offered.

 

My issues with this are obvious - where does the trader turn when it fails?

How is he going to get some recompense for the $3500+ ?

Why not ask actual traders for help - build rapport and seek genuine answers?

Why not work with someone who walks the walk ... talk is cheap ... well not at $3500 it isn't!

Are the trading problems psychologically based?

Who said so?

Who diagnosed that ... the trader ... other peers ... the touting psychologist?

Could it be that the failing trader is simply too darned lazy to do some work himself and is happy to pay?

What exactly does the psychologist intend to do?

How will the psychologist make a difference to trading outcomes?

Is the expectation of the trader aligned with reality ... or a misguided perception of progress for the time involved in trading?

Is the trader looking for an answer to his trading problems, or help with getting his trading to fire?

What is the psychologist going to do to assist the trader that is not already available to him?

Dos the trader need psychological assistance ... or help defining an edge - something a non-trading psychologist can not offer?

Who is it that places emphasis on the psychological aspects of trading? Traders? ... or psychologists with courses to sell?

Who decides whether the issues the trader struggles with are psychological ones, or to do with strategy, edge, market, time-frame capitalisation, experience, environment etc?

Does the trader require a psychologist to learn to trade, or does the mindset grow with experience?

And who says so?

 

Look Qiman, I could go on and on adding to this list.

 

My contention in the post that drew your attention (above) is that a trader need simply to experience winning a few times, and to link that winning with his habitual approach to trading. An approach that includes ...

 

focus on the strategy

commitment to excellence in executing that strategy

conviction that his strategy is matched correctly to his preferred style of trading

conviction that his edge is proven and statistically robust

 

and when these are executed cleanly, it can be spelled out in a word ... discipline.

 

I have tried in the past on TL to expand on that word, to show traders that it is NOT some form of punishment, but a way of life for a trader. And it need not be a sad life - especialy when it leads to successful trades.

 

In the above post I mentioned the work of Og Mandino - the key concept of which I felt was:

 

"I will form good habits and become their slave."

 

Now I am happy to be proven wrong, but where - in what I have posted here, above, or elsewhere on the forum - is there any room for a psychologist to make any difference to a trader's trades?

 

Can a psychologist give a trader an edge, a strategy, experience, enough capital, patience, a technique, a suitable trading environment and so on? He can certainly point out that such things are needed, but he cannot provide them..

 

I can also point out that such things are needed, and I give the information to you for free.

 

Want some trading music ... some zen ... a new strategy ... a new market to trade? ... we can talk.

 

But I would be interested to hear what you have to say about why a psychologist is an essential part of the trader's collection!

 

As far as "An understanding of how the mind actually works is key to so many fields including trading" I am a bit uncertain, and to be candid - I am sceptical about that.

 

I wonder how many old school traders went to a psychologist and asked: "Dr. ... tell me how the mind actually works, so I can be a trading success." I wonder about that - I wonder if such traders need their mother's approval before they decide if it's the EURUSD tonight or the GBPCHF!

 

Look - I have said before - unless traders do some darned hard work - and get serious about what they are doing, then all the psychologists in the world are are not going to get that light bulb changed.

 

Just an opinion - it doesn't have to be yours.

[johnw 10]

No problem with that, Qiman ... actually none whatsoever. My trading is done for the night - Aussie time so I'm on overtime rates now!

 

But I think we are talking about apples and peaches here. Feel free to disagree that trading is different from athletics. To you it may be the same - to me they are vastly different fields. Trading is "you" against "the market" while an athlete strives against others. An athlete will get another day to compete - a trader gets just one shot.

 

Hi Ingot54

 

Here is a different bend on the shape of things....

 

In sport, never give a face or personality to your opponent.

 

They are a "thing" with strengths to be attacked and weaknesses to be exploited, but that is all you allow them.

After the match, you can have a beer with them ..in fact they may be your friend ...but during the match they are just a "thing"

If you can convince them to treat you as a hostile person during a match, then you "own" them.

 

With trading, you buy and the price rises. You sell and the price falls.

The price is just a "thing" .... never give it a personality and it cannot "own" you.

 

The Sportsperson does not see past today's game ... therefore they also get "one shot"

 

The difference becomes less than you think, as personalities are removed.

Edited May 12, 2011 by johnw

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Ingot:

 

You and I have agreed in previous threads that no trader succeeds without having a trading strategy that works. That is a given.

 

But I’m really puzzled by some of you conclusions. Am I correct in this summary of your position?

 

Traders who would like to work with a psychologist are lazy. - “And this to me, is proof that they are simply a yuppi accessory for the well-heeled and lazy traders, who are too challenged to discover a few things for themselves!”

 

Because psychologists like Bret Steenbarger, etc. have written about the psychology of trading and that has not made most everyone a successful trader, psychology has no value. - “Well, after many years of Mark Douglas, Van K Tharp, and the Brett Steenbarger's of the world, those stats are still right up there!! Not a scratch ... not a dent ... not even the shine gone off that figure ... 95% still quoted as the bar to cross to be classed as a trading success.”

 

There are no psychological aspects to discipline. It is just something you do.

 

How the mind works (what you are thinking/feeling) has little relevance to performance. - ““An understanding of how the mind actually works is key to so many fields including trading"… I am sceptical about that.”

 

If a trader does work with a psychologist, the psychologist should take total responsible for the trader’s success. Thus, if the trader fails, the psychologist should refund his money. - “What I have been objecting to all along, is psychologists who have never traded an apple pie for a cream bun, setting up shop... and all with no guarantees offered.”

 

Anything that psychologists learned in their 11 years of training (4 years under grad, 4 years grad, 1 year internship, 2 years supervised practice, and possibly one or more years post-doc) and many years of practice, can quickly be learned and utilized by anyone with access to the Internet who can Google “goal visualization” or “relaxation techniques”, etc. - “Psychologists are more about resolution of fear, tranquility training, being relaxed and overcoming anxiety…. but none of these actually require a psychologist - traders can do this independently.” “All of these things the trader can fix himself ... without that crutch of a professional psychologist.”

 

Psychologists don’t really care about their clients. - “it's fine if you need a psychologist - I do not. I am happy with my wiring, and I do not feel the need to have any of that meddled with or adjusted by someone who doesn't know me, doesn't care about me, and only sees me as another bum-on-seat in his client waiting room.”

 

Do you really believe that is the way that psychologists see their clients? I certainly don’t view clients that way, nor do any psychologists that I know.

 

No psychologist does anything for free (no pro bono work ever). - “Since when did a psychologist offer anything to forum members for free ... yet members are posting freely EVERY DAY, things that are classified as tips, helpful info, things that work and so on. Not so the psychologist - it's all take and no give”

 

That’s hardly fair and certainly not accurate. Just look back through the psychology threads, there are plenty of suggestions, tips, and information offered, some even by psychologists. If you look at Rande’s website or subscribe to his newsletter, you’d find that he give lots of things away for free. And I have worked individually with forum members who have contacted me directly, some for many months – all free.

 

I can respect that you believe people need to be responsible for themselves, should commit to excellence, work to improve themselves, etc. Trading (and life) is tough stuff. Sometimes people can use a little help. But Ingot, it seems that you just don’t like trading psychologists. And as a psychologist, I’m driven to ask why. Did you run into someone on who took your money and gave little in return? Someone who was incompetent?

 

You’re a smart man; I’m sure you can tell the difference between the good ones and the bad ones. Please don’t paint us all with the same brush. There are some of us in the profession who are truly dedicated to helping others, and are good at doing it.

[Qiman 10]

I spent a great deal of time with a long reply to you Ingot, and then it got zapped somehow! So I will have to be briefer, I am a sole proprietor of 3 businesses and I am pretty pressed for time today. FX Girls response echoed some of what I wrote anyways.

 

You will get no argument from me that discipline and hard work are the foundation of trading, without which there is no hope of success. I started trading in 96, and was disciplined from the beginning. A very influential book for me was The Disciplined Trader, which to me is one of the most brilliant psychology books of any kind ever written. Drawing upon some of its insights and my own background of discipline in sports and having had an air force officer father who was extremely self-disciplined, I soon was making around 2k a month consistently only using 2X margin and with a small 18 K account. Mostly swing trading oil service stocks like ESV in 2-3 day patterns.

 

But MANY people come into trading who are extremely self-disciplined and highly educated professionals, such as lawyers, doctors, engineers. And they become perplexed, frustrated, and eventually angry because they can't make trading work, despite all their work ethic and discipline.

 

I came to the conclusion many years ago that most people are not cut out to be traders, much of it goes against human nature and few can handle the constant losses, drawdowns, and continual uncertainty. I would not recommend it to any of my successful close friends, knowing them like I do. Even if they had a brilliant trading psychologist they would likely struggle. And I have zero doubt that unresolved issues from the past also sabotage many a trader, I've seen it happen over and over when people are trying to compensate for an inferiority complex, lack of respect, etc., etc.

 

But IF a person has enough of the mental toughness, extreme self-honesty, and a flexible enough personality/ability to face their ego, they might be able to eventually evolve their psyches to handle the stresses of trading. And some do indeed get some needed and highly useful help on that difficult road, through the personal assistance of trading psychologists. Some of them have some extremely useful insights into trading, and probably the majority of them really do care. If you don't want their help that is fine. I personally have not used one, but I have benefited from some of their writings.

 

Most people are also not cut out to be high-level martial artists, and that is the sport which to me is the most like trading. Extremely high levels of self and others awareness, self-control, enormous discipline, mental toughness, resourcefulness, adaptability, flexibility, ability to deal with continually shifting dynamic energy which is full of uncertainty. The psychological requirements are enormous, and martial arts Masters who do take on students are very much psychologists in addition, trust me on that one.

 

As I have written, one of several things that I do is I train people in wilderness survival. And it is a bit like trading, so much uncertainty and the risk of loss,and the situation can turn on you instantly. And what I have seen is that most people are scared of the wilderness, and also scared of parts of themselves that the wilderness elicits in them. Trading does the same to most people and most drop out in time. Sometimes I end up having to counsel people about their fears and issues out there, there is no room for false bravado when you have peed your pants . . .

[SIUYA 11]

Ingot - "" Now I am happy to be proven wrong, but where - in what I have posted here, above, or elsewhere on the forum - is there any room for a psychologist to make any difference to a trader's trades?

 

Can a psychologist give a trader an edge, a strategy, experience, enough capital, patience, a technique, a suitable trading environment and so on? He can certainly point out that such things are needed, but he cannot provide them..""

 

While i understand your sentiments and largely agree with them - especially about the idea of unscrupulous purveyors targeting new players....it seems that the real point you have with psychologists is that they dont offer VALUE FOR MONEY to you. (??????)

 

because I think the answer to both of the questions you pose is yes - they can actually help some people who have all the discipline, methods etc; etc get through a road block or as johnw says , help reword something in the manner in which a person can really relate to. if this helps then great, but no it will not help everyone, nor is it a quick fix, or a cure all - as is often thought.

[SIUYA 11]

What does "disease" conjure up for us ...all sorts of dreadful medical conditions, I imagine.

 

Now try "dis----ease"....and see what you get.

.

 

Reminds me of Seinfeld - George Cantstandya -

ma-newer – (related terms: small, quirky bald man) 1. a new way to think about the word manure 2. quote: if you think about it, manure is not really that bad a word. I mean, it’s ‘newer’, which is good, and a ‘ma’ in front of it, which is also good. Ma-newer ,right?” – George 3

 

Plus when it came to parties, plenty came, it was just those folks who were unreliable. If you are prepared to travel just for a party then maybe you are an Aussie....driving 6 hours one way for a party was definitely seen as a normal thing.

[Ingot54 13]

Dear Ingot:

 

You and I have agreed in previous threads that no trader succeeds without having a trading strategy that works. That is a given.

 

But I’m really puzzled by some of you conclusions. Am I correct in this summary of your position?

 

Traders who would like to work with a psychologist are lazy. - “And this to me, is proof that they are simply a yuppi accessory for the well-heeled and lazy traders, who are too challenged to discover a few things for themselves!”

 

Should some people even be trading?

I wonder whether even I should be, given that I am slowly pegging away at the bar just above break-even.

Trading has not delivered the kind of transition I had hoped. In my professional career in I require full energy, alertness and physical fitness. Trading represents for me, a way to continue to provide for self/significant others who depend on me, in the fast-approaching times when my physical stamina and endurance are waning. I do not think my issues are anything psychology can assist with.

 

And after 7 years at this, I have yet to meet a trader who can put up their hand and say truthfully: "I am now replacing my former salary, thanks to the intervention of Dr X in my trading approach." I don't doubt that there may be one hiding somewhere who can say: "the psychologist made the difference" but my point is that of the many hundreds of traders I believe are "doing ok" most of that would be down to their own diligence and hard work. I think a mentor would be a better choice if a trader has a few thousand dollars to dump someplace.

 

The main - and glaring - issue here, is the hundreds of courses, books, webinars, seminars, all totalling many millions of dollars annually I suspect, that simply PERPETUATE the mythology. Do you think attendees and subscribers would say on exit: "I now have the tools to win at trading" ... and then 10 days later, have forgotten it all, or simply fallen back into bad trading habits?

 

The presenter of the seminar/course etc of course, knows he has not solved anyone's problems. How does he know? Because if the attendee was now trading well, the guru's front door would be knocked down by frenzied traders with a fist-full of hundred dollar bills, begging for him/her to impart their secrets to them too. Good news travels fast too! And all this, "taught" by people who do not trade themselves. In a sentence - they can not even follow their own advice! The stuff is theory ... mythology ... but it sounds good, and the "example" looked good at the time.

 

Because psychologists like Bret Steenbarger, etc. have written about the psychology of trading and that has not made most everyone a successful trader, psychology has no value. - “Well, after many years of Mark Douglas, Van K Tharp, and the Brett Steenbarger's of the world, those stats are still right up there!! Not a scratch ... not a dent ... not even the shine gone off that figure ... 95% still quoted as the bar to cross to be classed as a trading success.”

 

I would have to stand by that one - I believe many traders have "made it' without actually having picked up a book on psychology. This is one of those grey areas - how do you measure the influence of anything? I hope I am honest enough to post here if there is anything I can personally point to that I do, based on assistance gained from input from psychological sources. Have psychologists made any difference to those statistics ... or not?

 

I still believe that deferring to a psychologist is a distraction ... it offers hope to the trader that "something can be done" to 'fix" their trading problems. Maybe it can ... it's just that I have never seen it. In the meantime, the trader could be using the time more constructively.

 

I can point you to something that CAN make a difference ... it is free ... it is available and open to ALL traders ... and it is not based on psychology ... and I believe the application of it - by lazy traders - would make quite a large dent in those statistics: "95% of traders fail"

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f18/fear-greed-9058.html ... refer to post #24

 

Would that make a difference?

 

I wonder, if we did a poll, how many traders would admit to the fact that NOT following their plan,

or by assuming larger risks in trading than they should, is responsible for their trading failure?

 

In the past I would have to put my hand up as being guilty on both counts. And even today I have to watch myself that I don't "lash out" with big trades when I think I am correct! The impulse trade we spoke about earlier. I didn't need to have that professionally diagnosed and treated - that came naturally because I was keeping records and going over my trades for evidence of malpractice!

 

That is why I think a coach would be of far more value - or a mentor.

 

I hope to respond more fully shortly

 

Ingot

[Ingot54 13]

Anything that psychologists learned in their 11 years of training (4 years under grad, 4 years grad, 1 year internship, 2 years supervised practice, and possibly one or more years post-doc) and many years of practice, can quickly be learned and utilized by anyone with access to the Internet who can Google “goal visualization” or “relaxation techniques”, etc. - “Psychologists are more about resolution of fear, tranquility training, being relaxed and overcoming anxiety…. but none of these actually require a psychologist - traders can do this independently.” “All of these things the trader can fix himself ... without that crutch of a professional psychologist.”

 

So please enlighten me - I am very open to the truth - what exactly can a psychologist do that a trader could not do himself? All those years just to make no difference to the figures of traders who fail, despite the course, books webinars and seminars. Is it wrong to question whether a psychologist really has a rightful place in a traders armoury, or is that place a concocted one?

 

When someone comes to me with a $3500 course, don't you think I have the right to know what I am going to get for the outlay? And isn't it right that I should expect to have some answers for that money? That should be set in stone from the outset:

 

"Doctor ... can you help me?"

"I'm not sure, but pay the $3500 and we'll surely find out, my son!"

"Are you a real doctor?"

"Well I usually treat horses, so we shall see."

 

I am not too sure, but I suspect psychologists might be of more assistance in the grief-and-loss field, than in the trading world.

 

Why? Because in grief and loss situations, the problem is not the fault of the client - it is things that happen in life that caused the grief, outside of the control of the client. In short, the client has no responsibility for the tragedy/loss.

 

But in trading - the warnings are everywhere - disclaimers, forums, brokers - all are required to warn of the risks. So there is no excuse for traders NOT to take and accept full responsibility themselves for making a loss. There are many who attempt to warn and educate traders. And I think there are enough people in the so-called "support industry" who have nothing to offer the trader either. I think it is only fair to warn traders about that too, don't you? Particularly when these people can not demonstrate a very good track record, but still feel at ease charging thousands of dollars for their "expertise."

 

It doesn't matter if a person did 20 years preparation for their vocation ... if it is not applicable to the situation, then there is still no place for it. You wouldn't expect a librarian with 30 years experience to practise neuro-surgery, despite having read all the books on the subject?

 

I said before that I don't doubt that there may be situations where the input of a psychologist might be of some assistance, but it is certainly NOT a panacaea for failure.

 

Psychologists don’t really care about their clients. - “it's fine if you need a psychologist - I do not. I am happy with my wiring, and I do not feel the need to have any of that meddled with or adjusted by someone who doesn't know me, doesn't care about me, and only sees me as another bum-on-seat in his client waiting room.”

 

Do you really believe that is the way that psychologists see their clients? I certainly don’t view clients that way, nor do any psychologists that I know.

 

I am not a client of yours, yet you are engaging me at a personal level - a level which speaks of caring ... or at least curiosity. So no - not all psychologists are uncaring, or incurious obviously. But I can't see on this forum where a psychologist entered into dialogue to the degree you have, in an effort to dig out the substance of the issues, and then offered to provide some kind of solution to the issues.

 

No psychologist does anything for free (no pro bono work ever). - “Since when did a psychologist offer anything to forum members for free ... yet members are posting freely EVERY DAY, things that are classified as tips, helpful info, things that work and so on. Not so the psychologist - it's all take and no give”

 

That’s hardly fair and certainly not accurate. Just look back through the psychology threads, there are plenty of suggestions, tips, and information offered, some even by psychologists. If you look at Rande’s website or subscribe to his newsletter, you’d find that he give lots of things away for free. And I have worked individually with forum members who have contacted me directly, some for many months – all free.

 

I'll take that tour - there certainly are a lot of threads on psychology of trading.

 

I will make it my homework for the weekend to wade through and digest them. And if I find any of the "plenty of suggestions, tips, and information offered, some even by psychologists" then I can report back ... and even bring some pie with me.

Humble pie can only be eaten alone.

 

Since you mentioned Rande, then I feel that I can comment on his style and approach in this forum. Can I ask if you easily relate to his style of presentation? Do you find his dialogue impersonal? Do you relate well to his jargon of the science? I would hope so, but I doubt many traders relate to the gushing of expressions that are more at home in a conference of psychologists, and a little above a general trading forum level. That's just my opinion, of course.

 

My own profession requires me to have an understanding of these things as well.

 

But I found my work as a parent to four teenagers as they passed through my hands, was more thorough preparation for counseling than any course I could have done, that I know of. Unless we begin to bring in the work of people like Steve Biddulph.

 

You would be only too well aware yourself, how dealing with children as they grow and develop, helps develop useful skills and insights that can't be acquired from a text-book. And these skills can then be taught to parents who are having problems with "difficult" children.

 

The same goes for trading. You can't help a trader unless you have been involved in trading yourself. I think I challenged Rande somewhere to actually do a few trades - even demo trades - and see if he still sings from the same song-sheet! A few people on the forum have noted that you don't have to be a trader to be able to be a psychologist for traders. I disagree on that - and I think you would also have reservations about it, if you think about it.

 

My answer to that is that the best person to teach you to fish, is another fisherman.

 

Perhaps the psychologists are failing to sell exactly what it is that they offer the trader, and perhaps a little example or two would be in order. I would hope that we are over the "discipline" cliche, and there is something there with a little more depth. Discipline can be dealt with in 20 seconds ... what's next?

 

I can respect that you believe people need to be responsible for themselves, should commit to excellence, work to improve themselves, etc. Trading (and life) is tough stuff. Sometimes people can use a little help. But Ingot, it seems that you just don’t like trading psychologists. And as a psychologist, I’m driven to ask why. Did you run into someone on who took your money and gave little in return? Someone who was incompetent?

 

You’re a smart man; I’m sure you can tell the difference between the good ones and the bad ones. Please don’t paint us all with the same brush. There are some of us in the profession who are truly dedicated to helping others, and are good at doing it.

 

FXGirl, you are an unusually gracious person - anyone else who copped the flack I have been slinging might have batted quite a bit back. I can accept I have been top-heavy in my approach to this issue. You are quite right in some of your wonderings.

 

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

 

I think it would be more bad judgement for me to continue.

[johnw 10]

Hi Ingot,

 

You have brought up a very good point in one of your posts and that is "what is fear driven and what is anxiety"

 

If anxiety is the creation of negative outcomes, then perhaps this is the state that faces Traders until they learn to dismantle it.

 

"Winning breeds confidence" is something I am very wary of, since it is also the breeding ground for over confidence.

 

If a mantra is required, I prefer "Stick to the basics, do them well and you cannot go wrong"

[Ingot54 13]

Hi Ingot,

 

You have brought up a very good point in one of your posts and that is "what is fear driven and what is anxiety"

 

If anxiety is the creation of negative outcomes, then perhaps this is the state that faces Traders until they learn to dismantle it.

 

"Winning breeds confidence" is something I am very wary of, since it is also the breeding ground for over confidence.

 

If a mantra is required, I prefer "Stick to the basics, do them well and you cannot go wrong"

 

Thanks Johnw

 

I have decided to drop the subject now for 2 reasons:-

it is not winning me any friends, and

it makes me sound like a grumpy old man ...

both are probably true.

 

I think I'll go mainstream ... people don't want to be rocked out of their cosy little trances, and at the end of the day, traders I think just like to be gambling ... very few appreciate thinking differently.

 

I feel people don't really know what to make of my posts sometimes, but that is probably my fault for getting too intense about the topic.

 

Anyway - I have been giving psychologists a hard time - it's time to leave that and move on. They have a right to earn their living too, in the best way they know how. All I have tried to do is point out an alternative "self-help-for-traders" approach. I am happy to do my own thing now.

 

Have appreciated your input, and that of the other people who contributed and got me to clarify a bit of stuff - but this is a great forum, and the differences of opinion never spill into anything personal .

 

Thanks for your thoughtful stuff too mate - really makes me dig deep occasionally through reading .

[johnw 10]

Thanks Johnw

 

I have decided to drop the subject now for 2 reasons:-

it is not winning me any friends, and

it makes me sound like a grumpy old man ...

both are probably true.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughtful stuff too mate - really makes me dig deep occasionally through reading .

 

Don't be too hard on yourself.

This Site is all the better for your input.

I have always been a firm believer in shaking the tree occasionally to see what drops to the ground.