JEHs

This, I think is HUGE. We are all talking here as if we have that system or plan and all our problems are just in the execution. "Just follow your rules", it's as simple as that, but most people go for years before they even get a grasp of what a plan even is and then they have to try to construct one. It is at best a tedious and practically futile process. Frustrating to no end. So, for most of us, this whole thing about if we need a psychiatrist or not is a moot point. We aren't anywhere near there yet. I don't have any answers but, my own feeling on this, for what it's worth, is to just watch charts and forget about a system or plan. Just watch the charts and look them over again at night. Turn off all indicators and forget about them. Just look at the price action. I know everyone has heard this before, but how many of us actually do it. For years. And keep at it. For more years. And then some more. Eventually you will see things... and it will take a long time. Some coaching or mentoring would be great but, lets face it, for most of us, we are just on our own. There are so few worthwhile posts on these forums, it is best to just turn off this crap. (That said, this is one of the few threads in my many many years of reading these forums that might actually help somebody. We should all go back to the beginning and read it over). ...and there you have yet some more useless advice from a less than profitable trader. But, no matter what, life is good. Remember that.

Not a lot of helpful answers for ya here. I don't really have any either... I don't think it's that silly to want something to trade weekends. Especially if you are like most of us and have a regular job during the week. I have often wondered myself if there was something that could be traded over the weekend when I had the time, but I haven't found anything. The best you can do is find something to trade early mornings or late at night. Otherwise, like some have been saying, take the weekends to look over the carts and study the price action. The other thing to try is forget about day-trading and look at daily charts. That will give you plenty to do over the weekend. Read Darvas's book. We don't need to day-trade. We just think we do. John

Interesting observations about the books and "the psychological side of trading". The same, of course, could be said of forums, such as this. There is very little of any value here...anything that will take you to that next level. ...but if there is anything that someone else can say to us to help us, your posts are coming about as close as one could get. I had all but stopped reading anything here and my visits had gotten fewer and farther between, but lately I find myself checking back daily... A while back I got a restaurant gift card from here for $25.00 for starting a thread here: I should give it to you since I live 200 miles from the nearest restaurant that would take it. Your posts are certainly more deserving of it than mine was... Anyway, just wanted to say thanks, JH

I want to say thanks to everyone for the posts in this thread. It was fun. A lot of good insight and suggestions. ...and supposedly I get to take my wife out to eat the next time I make the two hour trek through the snow to the big city... That will be nice. Looks like it is going to be a snowy year here, we got another 5" today. We have lots of weekend trips coming up, out of town for pee-wee hockey games, my son has been practicing for a few weeks now since they started making ice here. I've come to enjoy a good hockey game and I'm hoping to see some this year. Winter has started for sure... I took the last week away from the charts and probably will extend that till after Thanksgiving. Then, hopefully I will be somewhat caught up on my other work and can focus with a fresh mind. Thanks again for the responses... John [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EoNd_maBbY]YouTube - James Taylor - Sweet Baby James[/ame]

I know nothing about coding. So it will all have to be me if I am ever to make it...

I know they exist, but I have never seen a system where there wasn't some discretion involved. I don't think there is something you could tell some slob that he could make work. Even if it were a "clean" system with no personal discretion required, there are other things like discipline etc, that would make it unusable to the "slob". I have had people who, I assume, (because they told me), are profitable traders, show me what they are doing and I can always point out a place on the chart and say, "why didn't you do it there?" and the answer will be something like, "I don't know, it just didn't look right so I didn't take it". That sort of says to me that, without the years of screen time, the system is not really a system, but just some parameters that someone has put on his entries and exits, but the system itself, is in the head... I remember for some reason, many decades ago, my Dad teaching me to ride a bike. He kept saying, "turn in the direction you are falling". That's the basic idea, but we all know there is more to it than that. The only way is to keep falling till you stop falling. After that you can work on speed and jumping over tires in the back yard or whatever... All that said, if I were successful, I would probably not say too much about what I was doing exactly. But if my brother or son or wife were to ask, I would tell them all... Of course, then there's the problem of being a good teacher. Every one of my kids came to me at some point and ask me to teach them to play guitar. I failed miserably. My teaching was not good. On the other hand, maybe they were not good pupils or just not ready to learn, or thought it would be easier so quit or... There are tons of variables in the teacher/student relationship that are impossible to define. Still the idea of taking the approach to yourself as if you were trying to teach someone else how to trade definitely has some merit... OK, now my head hurts....

At least you have friends who "kill the market", so you know it is possible. I don't even know that. If you are making a few hundred bucks a week, I would say you are doing good. I'm lucky to break even... I'm not complaining. Like you say, the Holy Grail is between our own ears. There is no one to blame but ourselves. But occasionally we have good reason to pause for reflection... I posted this in my blog a while back: In my day job I generally bill out at $35.00 - 40.00 an hour. If I had worked all these hours over the past 12 years or so instead of trying to learn to trade... Lets see... If I say I average two hours a day on trading and go ten years to keep it conservative, (and I'm sure that would be conservative), that would be 520 hours a year, 5200 for the ten year period. Let's say $35.00 an hour would get me to $182,000.00. That is a conservative figure of what this education has cost me so far. That doesn't include books and paying scammers, probably several thousand more. And the money I've lost in my account...Wow. That's a sobering thought... I wonder why I keep doing this? What makes me think I will succeed? I wonder if I really care anymore weather I succeed? It seems like it is just something I do now...

Why do we have these discussion forums? What am I expecting to get from this? What have I ever got from a discussion forum? Is there some voice out there that I will stumble upon that will give me the ultimate secret to trading? Do I even know if there is anyone here who actually can trade successfully? Can trading even be done successfully? A while back there was a survey posted here. One of the questions, of course, was something Like, “what more would you like to see in this forum, (or website or whatever, I can't remember the wording)”. My answer was simple. I want someone to tell me how to trade successfully. That's not asking for too much is it? HA! ...so we have discussions on entry’s and exits and candlesticks and Wycoff, and trend lines and psychology and price action and blah blah blah.... on and on... A few thoughts: I'm pretty sure I could get my “traders IQ” level to 100 here without actually ever making a successful trade if that is something I wanted to do... if I wanted to sell myself as a coach or something. I know enough about trading, I have been looking at charts long enough, that I know exactly what to do and when... and yet I still am not a successful trader. Trader Vic said something like, he had taken over the years before his first book, at least 30 people into his office, showed them everything he does, let them in on all his secrets, worked with them independently and as attentively as possible and something like 6 of them went on to become anything near successful. The desire to teach is strong, but for a successful trader to hang out at a forum like this? Most of the folks that appear successful eventually fade away. They get tired of the same old questions and nobody really appearing to “get it”. They have better things to do, (I would sure hope so, if they were successful). I do believe trading can be done successfully, but I don't know for sure. I have NEVER actually sat next to someone and watched them make real trades successfully one after another over any length of time, so I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE... but it seems plausible... I wonder if there is anybody at this forum that was here as an unsuccessful trader and progressed to the point of being a successful trader? It's just a thought... Seems like there are a lot of people that appear to be successful, (I say “appear' because one never can tell for sure), but they are always just there. Like they just know how to trade. I've never seen anyone actually going through the steps of becoming a successful trader from being an unsuccessful one.... So, where do we go from here. I see the newbies come in and I say to myself, “I'm glad I'm way past that stage”, but what does that mean? I still am not successful, so how am I past that at all? In the end, you just keep your nose to the grindstone and plod along. Hoping for some sort of enlightenment. An “ah-ha” moment. Or maybe hoping that someone, if we ask the right questions, will feel sorry for us and take us under their wing and give us the true wisdom that they are withholding from everyone else... or... I don't know what we are hoping for. We read these posts, we sometimes say something that we think is important or ask an important question...but...Really?? WTF?? ...so let's talk about that... yeah, all of it.... just for feces and giggles...

Here's a blog by some crazy guy, struggling to become successful. Ha! Imagine! Who actually puts this stuff down like this? Crazy... Traders Laboratory - Professional Traders Community - JEHs

On the other hand, he didn't mention what a "small" account was either. Maybe he has 30k and wants to trade ES off daily charts...then the draw downs would be hard to swallow and SPY would be the perfect choice. I guess it's all a matter of perspective... It's enough to make ones head hurt...

Problem is, if you account is too small for ES, you won't be able to day trade the SPY either. You need 25K for that.

Or NQ...I just wish the cost of commissions was proportionate rather than, for the most part, constant....

The local food shelf is usually about as good as it gets as far as percentage of overhead, etc. I know in our little town here it is all volunteer so it is 100% going where it is supposed to and their buying power is impressive. A dollar given to them amounts to a lot. I know we tend to think of people here who go to food shelves as being bums sponging off the system, and I'm sure there are flaws in every system, but a couple years ago I was facing a tough time and thought, it could easily be me as well as anybody in those lines. I started writing them a monthly check and it has helped me considerably. There are numerous programs like "Big Brother" or mentoring programs to volunteer for. I have always enjoyed coaching little league baseball and I have been involved heavily building a youth recreation facility in our town, (these are things rural communities have such a hard time paying for, so lots of volunteer time needed). I have spent time thinking about charities to give too around the world and then I realized there are things to do right in my back yard. People need help all over and there are lots of kids who need role models. We also have a couple people we sponsor through a Catholic Church program. I think it is a pretty good program but you never know. I can't remember the name of the program, my wife writes that check... Good topic.

A quick question on your chart Thales...

I have been watching SPY with the same idea: SPY charts - Traders Laboratory - Professional Traders Community

I don't think alcohol would be my inhibitor of choice to try trading with... But I haven't smoked anything it 25 years and would even know where to get the stuff. I suppose I would ask one of my kids... Not worth it. Now I enjoy a drink, (preferably with my wife), and I enjoy trading but not at the same time...

You might be giving up. If you are like me it wont last long. I have given up numerous times and it lasts about a week. If you can walk away that easily, you are probably a better man that I. Some days I wish I could do that. But then...a glimmer...and I feel like I just might be getting it... I don't think you need to sit in front of the computer all day. I would recommend going and getting your job and then just looking at charts at night. I think the key here is not to trade live or anything like that...the key is to understand price action at least some of the time. Or find a market that trades early in the morning or late at night after the kids are in bed. Just an hour of watching the charts unfold every day, no trading, just watching and you would be making progress. Have you ever been watching a chart and not really know what it's going to do next but you have been watching charts so long that at some point you see something happening and you say to yourself, I just know price will stop right there and go up or down, and you are right? If you have not, then you have probably not spent enough time just watching charts. Forget trading...just watch. Trading is too distracting. When you start getting to those points where you just know...try to figure a way to enter...some sort of a trigger or a formation you see on a shorter term chart...something that will make you comfortable getting in. That's why nobody can teach someone else how to trade. because in a successful trader, he has been immersed in charts so long that it is just his second nature. He doesn't even really understand what he is doing. But ya gotta enjoy it... Anyway, I thought I would throw down a little shpeal here just for the heck of it...but then I don't have a clue what I am talking about so it's probably only worth 2 cents to me. Oh, and get rid of all the indicators on your charts. Just forget them, at least for now. JH

I Think most here are technical traders, that is, they trade from chart patterns, support/resistance that sort of thing. I would guess not to many here would even give PE a thought. If the stock is in an uptrend, then you would think long; downtrend think short. PE doesn't matter. Now if your looking for a stock with good fundamentals that you might want to buy and hold for the long run... that's another story. That, in my opinion, is not trading. That is investing, and I guess I quit thinking of the stock market as a place to invest money a long time ago, but that's just me...

For me they are already linked. I have always opened a chart first and then hit the little DOM symbol on the tool bar on the chart and this brings up a DOM that is linked to the chart. Then my strategy is set up so that I can just right or left click on the chart and the orders are entered and I can see them right away on the DOM. I can move the entry around either on the DOM or the chart and once the entry is made, I can move the stops and targets around on the DOM or the chart. I think it all works pretty well.

For what it's worth, I used the chart for trading. It works great. I do have a DOM up and it helps to move orders when you have to move a couple at a time, it saves a little time and inconvenience, but the order entries for me are always done on the chart. I keep a separate chart for it so I don't accidentally enter an order when I am trying to draw a line or something. I draw my lines and stuff on other charts and keep one in the corner just for order entry etc.

I 'spose I should jump in now if there's really goin to be a party...

It's certainly possible. Before charts were available and computers were everywhere, the tape readers did it all with just price printed out on the tape. Jesse Livermore didn't use charts.

I hate to even post this one...

Over traded a bit today...

I didn't say it would help anyone. I just said that was the original intent of the thread. I think, anyway, I certainly could be wrong about that.. You could say the same about most posts anywhere on any forum. Are they really going to help? You have to sift through a lot of meaningless info to find the occasional nugget of insight, but even then, nobody in any post anywhere is going to give you the information needed to make you profitable. I have been doing this a long time and one thing I have found out is, for the most part, you are on your own. John