[AgeKay]

Before being disgusted at everyone who receives bonuses even though their bank is being bailed out, have you considered that a few of these people had actually made their bank money?

For example, there might have been 10 people in one department doing market making in currencies which made 100 million. Do these people not deserve their bonuses? Of course, it is out of question that the loan department where another 100 people work that lost several hundred million or even billion does not deserve bonuses.

Is it fair that bank employees that have nothing to do with all of this get laid off? No! But this is the risk you take being an employee. You let others decide...

[JBWTrader]

I have to agree with AgeKay to some extent,
If an employees renumeration package is based partly on the achievement of the overall corporate goals AND on the achievement of individual performance goals then in this eg with AIG they should get nothing for the overall corporate goal achivement and whatever % their personal goals related to their achievment.

However...

It is always a test of the HR practices to strike a balance here when setting this up and of course the reviewing process. What can be difficult is linking a persons direct responsibilities/Authority/Tasks or JOD to the direct financial measures of performance/achievements. Its often very difficult to find clear direct one to one indiv employee achiements with a direct finacial one. Hence often there are departmental goals for achievement also included.

Each case needs to be looked at Individually within the context of individual,department/section and coporate goals/achievements of course.

What complicates it with AIG eg is that I hear many of their financial goal achievements were not Reality based (as it turns out )...wow, no wonder people are calling for a general withdrawal of monies earnt as bonuses.
However each case still needs to be looked at individually.

I can say that in the future because of the furore with AIG more and more of peoples personal goals and department goals will be linked to the overall goals of the company(and as they should be) in a more realistic financial sense.

I make these assertions on limited info about the case, so excuse me if I am incorrect anywhere with the facts. Thats another story again with this particular case in general I believe.

All the Best

John

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by JBWTrader »

I have to agree with AgeKay to some extent,
If an employees renumeration package is based partly on the achievement of the overall corporate goals AND on the achievement of individual performance goals then in this eg with AIG they should get nothing for the overall corporate goal achivement and whatever % their personal goals related to their achievment.

However...

It is always a test of the HR practices to strike a balance here when setting this up and of course the reviewing process. What can be difficult is linking a persons direct responsibilities/Authority/Tasks or JOD to the direct financial measures of performance/achievements. Its often very difficult to find clear direct one to one indiv employee achiements with a direct finacial one. Hence often there are departmental goals for achievement also included.

Each case needs to be looked at Individually within the context of individual,department/section and coporate goals/achievements of course.

What complicates it with AIG eg is that I hear many of their financial goal achievements were not Reality based (as it turns out )...wow, no wonder people are calling for a general withdrawal of monies earnt as bonuses.
However each case still needs to be looked at individually.

I can say that in the future because of the furore with AIG more and more of peoples personal goals and department goals will be linked to the overall goals of the company(and as they should be) in a more realistic financial sense.

I make these assertions on limited info about the case, so excuse me if I am incorrect anywhere with the facts. Thats another story again with this particular case in general I believe.

All the Best

John

I am pretty certain that the people who got the huge bonuses at AIG where not the people who were responsible for AIG taking on those huge risks. They were in fact people who were hired by AIG because of their ability to place huge amounts of securities with large investment groups, pension funds, foreign governments, fund managers, and other misc institutional investors. These guys and gals were hired away from other companies to come to work for AIG because of their talents. AIG may as well close the doors completely if they cannot place the debt instruments that they underwrite. These "bonused guys" have the ability and connections to place massive amounts of securities. It has zero to do with risks that AIG took. It's just difficult for Mr. Front porch to conceive of someone getting millions in a bonus from a near bankrupt company.

Having the govt regulate how much all the employees get paid will result in a talent drain since those who will be effected the most will simply move to a company that is not being regulated. The regulated companies will all flop or have to severely change the way they do business. The result will be forced failure after we inject billions. Not a good plan.

The guys that negotiated the guaranteed bonuses will ultimately get paid. It will wind up in court, we will pay extra fees for litigating the case, and they will ultimately get paid because it was a contract. Another bad plan.

Not wanting them to get their bonus is an emotional thought. As in many other parts of our lives, letting your emotions make decisions for you is never a good idea.

[zdo]

Eiger,
re

Politics upset you, eh?

Yep I need to drop it and image creating the new after this system completely crumbles itself... Actually at this point I am more upset that I am doing the rant instead of millions and millions of fellow earthlings than I am about the 'politics'.
...here is another dumbass wasting his time yelling about what's wrong instead of creating something functional...

The distraction on Capitol Hill this week has to do with the jackpot bonuses that executives at AIG recently received. The argument is over a relative drop in the bucket. The total amount of bonuses given out was $165 million. The government has put $170 billion into AIG so far. Many now are demanding we get this money back. We ought to be spending our time and effort doing something more worthwhile, like figuring out how the Federal Reserve is handling the trillions of dollars they are creating and pumping into the economy, and how that is affecting the purchasing power of dollars in your pocket.
The big mistake was appropriating the TARP funds in the first place. A Johnny-come-lately bill of attainder won't stop the spending epidemic. This whole situation is a perfect demonstration of why "doing nothing" and letting failing companies fail would have been much better than sinking valuable money and resources into them.
When a company makes a profit, it is a signal that it is taking resources and increasing their value while controlling costs. When a company operates at a loss, it is a signal that it is decreasing the value of its resources or letting out-of-control costs outstrip any value it has created. A company operating at a loss is therefore an engine of wealth destruction. Bankruptcies are a net positive for the economy because more productive competitors are rewarded by opportunities to buy up remaining assets at bargain prices to strengthen their operations. In an economy that allows this kind of growth and change, any jobs lost by bankruptcy are soon replaced by new ones as the most efficiently managed businesses gain access to more assets and expand.
Bankruptcy was the stimulus that we needed in the case of AIG. More bankruptcies would clean out malinvested resources and enable economic growth again.
AIG, by losing money and maneuvering their operations to the brink of bankruptcy, was telling us that they were inefficient. So what did we do? We forced the taxpayer to assume the losses, and now we are supposed to be shocked that it is not working out. Had AIG gone bankrupt, it would have been impossible to hand out these bonuses. The taxpayer would have been fleeced for $170 billion less last year. Had they gone bankrupt, the world would not have come to an end, it would just continue on with one less engine of wealth destruction.
We should have learned from Japan. The 1990's is referred to as Japan's "lost decade" because of the zombie banks kept on life support by the Japanese government. Any productivity was redirected through these engines of wealth destruction, resulting in long term stagnation. We should and can avoid this outcome if we come to our senses.
A recession should be a time of strengthening and regrouping for an economy. But as long as the government insists on maintaining the status quo by propping up failed institutions, we will continue to dig a bigger hole for ourselves

Ron Paul 3/23/09

[Eiger]

Originally Posted by zdo »

... Actually at this point I am more upset that I am doing the rant instead of millions and millions of fellow earthlings than I am about the 'politics'...

I resonate with Ron Paul and the Libertarian outlook. When I first read Ayan Rand a number of years ago, I didn't think I could continue to live and work in such a dysfunctional system. Virtually everything I saw smacked of statism and the mindless crushing of the individual. Her work had an enormous impact on me, as have the Austrian Ecomomic school of thought (Von Mises, Rothbard, Rockwell, et al). I did withdraw from being an employee of the system, as now I am simply a trader and a psychologist with a small private practice with as minimal a connection to the statist system as I can manage. I found that ranting about the obvious (and I was pretty loud) always fell on deaf ears.

Paul's surprize that we failed to learn from Japan is really no surprize at all. We will nearly always opt for the instant gratification, even when it is against our best interests long-term. Our behavior is really no different than the addict's in this regard. Even though expensive, it felt "right" that we were doing something now with AIG despite knowing it runs counter to capitalism and will work against us in the end. It's the same thing we (i.e., our politicians) did in Afganistan and again in Iraq. Back then we wanted to do someing now, even though it made no long-term sense.

Eiger

[olie1018]

Why don't you focus on the real facts? the real issue is much bigger than aig... the bonus money is barely over 1% of the total amount... you sound like you are a sound bite junkie manipulated by the liberal media... corruptocrats in hollywood, d.c., americans addicted to sound bites, being apathetic, ignorant to the facts, and selfish... these are the real problems, just to name a few...

jim

[zdo]

Originally Posted by olie1018 »

Why don't you focus on the real facts? ...
jim

I really wish I could oblige you but here’s all I got today…

http://www.safehaven.com/article-13035.htm


and PS

Been busy packing my bug-out-bag, readying the remote retreat and stocking up on 100 Things that Disappear First. While we're waitin' on 1Q09 earnings, howz about a review of the some of last year's conspiracy theories and a look at where they are now.
You'll remember reports of new, family-oriented prison camps being built around the US; reports that battle-hardened troops brought back from Iraq would be stationed in cities throughout the country; that fighter planes were flying between skyscraper canyons in those cities; 500,000 plastic coffins were being stored in Atlanta, home of the CDC; plans to supplant the US dollar with a North American currency, which was superseded by plans for a NWO currency; complete loss of faith in the US along with worldwide financial collapse; and natural disasters of biblical proportions indicating the end of times.
Old news now perhaps, but they sure sounded like conspiracy theories at the time.
Then there's this one, which is still circulating and has more traction than UFOs. It's the most audacious of them all and it was, and continues to be, that we've hit the bottom. The bottom of what and defined how you ask? The bottom of everything -- Peak Bottom -- defined by any financial-performance metric whatsoever, no matter how insignificant, even as small as a Kudlow mustard seed. And here's what I think of this one -- to I quote The Mogambo Guru, although not necessarily on this subject -- hahahahahaha.
Camping, FEMA Style
This is government at its best. I'm serious. Jobs were created and money was saved by flipping WWII Japanese-American remote retreats and repurposing a few FEMA shelters to create new, family-style, involuntary housing facilities. So now you know where the recent uptick in multi-family construction permits and government employment came from.
At least some of the campers will be refugees from the Mexican-American drug wars. Troops of both countries have been amassing at the border for some time. And, Dubya's back in Texas, one of the hot spots, a whoopin' and a hollerin' to "Bring them on!" We know how that worked out the last time. Hahahahahaha (hat tip to TMG).
Concentration, internment, or armed-guarded human enclosures by whatever name are the kind of places where there's always room for one more. This summer's rioters (see below) will need involuntary accommodations and, who knows, the country could be called upon again to further victimize natural-disaster survivors, as was the case after Katrina.
Battle Stations in a City near You
War-hardened troops from Iraq reassigned for duty on US soil? Is this constitutional? What's the constitution these days anyway; it's a bit late to worry about that now. Troops have been at their new battle stations in US cities for months. According to the latest from the Army Times, the original plan for 20,000 will be increased to as many as 80,000.
Troops at the border, troops in the cities, and fighter pilots overhead -- bet you think it's to foil the Mexican drug gangs, right? No, the army states flat out that troops are being "readied to deal with what could be widespread civil disorder resulting from an 'unforeseen economic collapse' or 'loss of a functional political and legal order." Something to keep in mind as you plan your summer vacation this year.
Related, are reports around the country of searches and/or drills conducted jointly by local law enforcement and other uniformed personnel such as members of the National Guard and federal agencies including the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms and Tobacco and FBI. So far, tickets have been issued and locals have been traumatised. It's something we'll have to get used to, which is the point, after all.
Oh, and Blackwater got kicked out of Iraq and they're back too.
End of Times
I'm no biblical scholar or even a church goer for that matter, but I vaguely remember something about pestilence, fire, earthquakes, floods and the like as milestones along the way to the Apocalypse, the Rapture, TEOTWAWKI or, at the very least, when TSHTF.
Bird Flu has been identified in Kentucky over the last few days and there is increased risk of West Nile virus in stagnant swimming pools of foreclosed homes; still, 500,000 plastic coffins seem like a lot. They killed the birds and all you need is some DEET for the WNV. Lately, volcanoes all over the place have been a'rupting and a'spewing; earthquakes just missed the Vatican, or were in the same country at least; floods -- lots of floods; and all manner of other natural disasters including no sun spots for what seems like forever. Interpretation of these phenomena rests on the same logic as "it's a recession if you have a job; if you've lost your job, it's a depression." If you lived in New Orleans, Indonesia, are Italian, or haven't cleaned your pool lately, it's the end of times. Especially if you are now dead.*
The Chipping of America
Perhaps you've chipped your pets, farm animals, kids and are using one to plug the hole in your head. New cars are being equipped with GPS chips and old cars will be retrofitted with them; they've been in trucks for some time to track and tax road usage. Chips are all the better to see you with, to trace you with and, ultimately, some think, to tax you with.
Chips are already in homes in California. They are implanted in thermostats to regulate energy use and cannot be overridden by the homeowner. Obama wants to expand this program across the country. Too hot? Too cold? Too bad.
What's Left
McCain showed us his, but Obama has not. Is our president a foreigner, a Muslim or Muslim sympathizer and about to offer up the US to the NWO? And why did he perform the kowtow for the king of Saudi Arabia? Should we be scared, really scared?
Last, but not least, there're the UFOs, the conspiracy theory that keeps giving. Believers must be thinking, what, the **** probes weren't enough; what's an extra-terrestrial got to do to get some respect? Well, if the Grand Archdruid is sceptical of 95% of the evidence, and he is, then I will cling to the 5% chance that the spaceship is coming.
*OT: According to the FBI, 9% of subprime mortgagees were dead when the mortgage was made. I'm wondering: at what point in the process were they dead and when did they know they were dead. Like so much else these days, we may never know.

Marygwen Dungan

PPS btw …and what happened to the bush bashing peace activists… were they abducted?
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=46413

[olie1018]

that's a lot of speculation, theory, and hearsay... focus on the real facts... facts help the mind make intelligent and accurate decisions...

jim