[ScottB]

The scariest question any trader can ever ask themselves ever (it is so scary, I can barely type the words) is:

Am I really cut out to be a trader?

My personal answer wasn't very clear - I can trade but normally hate to; so where does that leave you?

Then it occurred to me; I have pretty straightforward rules, when I follow them I virtually always make money and I have years of commercial software experience (as with actual software companies as opposed to in house IT).

The solution was simple, write algos and let them get up at 1 am and watch 3 trades in a row go against you (even though the rules were executed as only a computer can). That was when I began to be profitable.

The funniest thing is that now I can take manual trades much more easily (it still is not my favorite thing to do) because I know that if I follow the rules I will make money (and I like making money).

Scott

[Rande Howell]

"Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons"
_________________________ _________________________ _____________________

I appreciate the concerns you bring up here. Most people, including trader coaches working with the mind, miss how challenging it is to change biological pattern in the brain that creates the way we interpret the world. Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

The key you need to grasp about human development is that your brain is adapted to the biases, beliefs, and circumstance of your family of origin and community. This is where you begin. As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances, you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world.

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. Learning occurs when brain and pattern are changed at an organizational level. Head knowledge has little to do with it. It is the habits ofthe heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

Most traders I work with have been trading for years and have toured the circuit of gurus from methodology to psychology. Until you decide that paving over problems is only a short term solution and embrace the need to de-construct and re-organize the memory circuits of your self limiting beliefs, they will re-assert themselves. I came to this conclusion while working with very challenging populations including violent prisoners, domestic violence, and child abuse. The same principles that guided self limiting beliefs, behaviors, and the creation of their lives from these populations are the exact same principles that guide develop across all human development of potential. There's was just much more extreme that normal populations that traders like to think they are part of.

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher. This is why I offer free consults.

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change.

Rande Howell

[aversano]

Originally Posted by ScottB »

The scariest question any trader can ever ask themselves ever (it is so scary, I can barely type the words) is:

Am I really cut out to be a trader?

My personal answer wasn't very clear - I can trade but normally hate to; so where does that leave you?

Then it occurred to me; I have pretty straightforward rules, when I follow them I virtually always make money and I have years of commercial software experience (as with actual software companies as opposed to in house IT).

The solution was simple, write algos and let them get up at 1 am and watch 3 trades in a row go against you (even though the rules were executed as only a computer can). That was when I began to be profitable.

The funniest thing is that now I can take manual trades much more easily (it still is not my favorite thing to do) because I know that if I follow the rules I will make money (and I like making money).

Scott

My experience is different than yours. I developed a trading application that crossed referenced 3 different time frames and executed trades based on certain rules maintaining strict money management.
Didn't work for me, if I had to develop it today I would have done it differently. focusing on T&S and market depth.
Every trade decision I take is in hopes that others saw the same thing that I saw and will jump on the wagon. You see, its a matter of who pushes one level up or one level down.

[ScottB]

aversano, that's what makes the trading world go round. For example, Al Brooks has an incredible book; dense but definitely worthwhile. Every time I read it, I get something new but wonder how a human could keep all that in their head. It always reinforces that I went the right direction for me.

I write algos and trade through a prop firm in Chicago; it is a perfect match for me and could be someone's worst nightmare. HFT works if you have the knowledge, speed, capital and commission structure. Without all of those components, you can get close but the deck is stacked against you.

We each have to find our own way, it seems.

Scott

[simonyadig]

Originally Posted by Rande Howell »

"Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons"
_________________________ _________________________ _____________________

I appreciate the concerns you bring up here. Most people, including trader coaches working with the mind, miss how challenging it is to change biological pattern in the brain that creates the way we interpret the world. Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

The key you need to grasp about human development is that your brain is adapted to the biases, beliefs, and circumstance of your family of origin and community. This is where you begin. As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances, you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world.

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. Learning occurs when brain and pattern are changed at an organizational level. Head knowledge has little to do with it. It is the habits ofthe heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

Most traders I work with have been trading for years and have toured the circuit of gurus from methodology to psychology. Until you decide that paving over problems is only a short term solution and embrace the need to de-construct and re-organize the memory circuits of your self limiting beliefs, they will re-assert themselves. I came to this conclusion while working with very challenging populations including violent prisoners, domestic violence, and child abuse. The same principles that guided self limiting beliefs, behaviors, and the creation of their lives from these populations are the exact same principles that guide develop across all human development of potential. There's was just much more extreme that normal populations that traders like to think they are part of.

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher. This is why I offer free consults.

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change.

Rande Howell

Ok, but my point simply is that there are books/coaches/courses out there that can help you along your path. Both you and the original poster act like they need to be all or nothing, but that's not the case. Most everything you say is true and same with the OP, but in the end both of you are making it sound like there's no benefit to some of these books and whatnot (I'm referring to the good ones). I've been a profitable trader for 4 years now and it's been my sole income. Did I get there because of the books and courses I took? Nope. Did they help me out? Yes, absolutely. That's my point. If someone says Tharps book alone will make you a great trader, they're wrong. If someone says it's worthless and won't help anyone out at all, they're also wrong.

[Ingot54]

Some very good responses and ideas expressed here. Thank you.

Originally Posted by TradeRunner;

Hi Ingot

How did you get on with the exercise in chapter 11 of "Trading in the Zone"?

TradeRunner

I don’t recall that test, TradeRunner, which means I didn’t do it. I concede I may have viewed things a little differently had I taken the trouble to apply myself and participated in the spirit of the book at that time.

I read the book first in 2005 from memory, and again maybe 2006, but was not influenced enough at that stage to apply anything Mark Douglas was saying. Same with my Van K Tharpe book … I sold all of my trading books … 35 books in all, and kept one - recommended here:

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/for...list-9251.html

(see post #6)

But let me say this: I had done personality tests, risk profiles earlier in that year (2005) with (Coach) Chris Shea, and these things were already occupying my thoughts – I think I ignored similar exercises (if that was what it was about) for that reason at the time.

I am open enough to admit that I may have seriously overlooked something then that may have influenced me for the better. I may never know – and I am pretty much immune to purchasing books now – it’s all been said in one form or another.

The next book I read will be one I write myself – and I can promise you – if I ever do – it will not be a “please go softly, don’t break me” effort. It will have the bones laid bare, and I would seriously destroy what I see as the problems within the trading literature and teaching/learning industry.

I won’t go much further than to say I have little respect for the trading support industry as a whole – and that includes those who push the pedal on the Psychological “healing” approach to trading. These folk are making seriously good money “helping” traders overcome bad habits.

I remain fixed in my beliefs that if you have psychological issues, psychological assistance will not be your answer. The only thing I know that overcomes a bad experience is to get out there and get yourself roughed up – not as a masochist, but as a student – and L-E-A-R-N what works.

If you can NOT apply the principles of successful trading, then you have NO BUSINESS TRADING IN FINANCIAL MARKETS – you will get destroyed.

Let me repeat – break the rules and pay the price.

You have to cut the cord with “your mother” and imv Psychological coaching is a surrogate mother. At the end of the therapy, will you remember what the course/therapy taught? I think probably very little of it. What does teach us, is our emotional experiences, and pain, elation, frustration and so on. If you keep on doing what you always did, you will keep on getting what you always got.

Stop it. Make the DECISION to change, and DO IT.

I can not see that traders need more than to be consistent and committed, and follow all the things I listed in my earlier posts. You have to read everything I am saying full context of the thread. Please read what I am NOT saying too. I will elaborate in my next post and in replies to others who have also been kind enough to respond.

Sorry for the long response, TradeRunner - with me you can't get the short answer when the long answer is an option!

[Tradewinds]

I have never read a trading book. I have never read a book about the psychology of trading. I do need to state that I don't read any books. I'm not saying it's good that I don't read books, but I would like to make one point. There are people who can figure things out by themselves, and there are people who don't seem to be able to figure things out by themselves. I want to figure things out for myself, partly, because I don't have a lot of trust that people have my best interests in mind. I definitely have learned things about trading from other people, but it was all free information. It makes me cringe a little when I read of a person who is new to trading looking for advice and help from other people. I have to wonder what these people are "in for", and what the end result is going to be. I'm not saying that a person can't learn to trade someone else's system, and be successful at it. But I hate putting my fate into someone else's hands. So you either need to be lucky and find the right system, or make sure you have some way of figuring out whether the book, or mentor, or blogger really has a viable system.
My point is this: My opinion is, . . that at least to some degree, every trader must figure it out for themselves. Being really persistent and "long suffering" is probably a requirement also. If you can't do those things, I don't know how anyone could ever make any money trading.

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by Cory2679;

I admittedly have not read through this entire thread, but I did want to say that in my experience, the trading psychology books (ie Douglas) advocate the very same thing that I quoted you saying here!

I disagree with the notion that rather than addressing psychological issues, people should just man up and shut up, and push through. While it is certainly one way to go, I feel like it's not the best way. I think the best way is to address and attempt to resolve the real psychological issues.

To me, it's like driving with all flat tires...you can just keep on going and push through it, not addressing the problem directly, but wouldn't it be a much better idea to stop, inflate the tires to the proper pressure, then continue on your way? It's certainly going to be a hell of a lot smoother journey!

Corey – Thank you for your response.

I can not recall what Mark Douglas was saying … but that’s my point. What I read (twice) had NO IMPACT on me at that time, and although many reading this thread may think it is indeed a great text, how many can say that they are NOW successful BECAUSE of what Mark Douglas taught them?

I concede there MAY be some, but how many? Really.

But I will say this – had it not been for my own determination to commit to what I have learned through bad trading experiences (the negative reinforcement paradigm) I would NOT have progressed this far.

I believe a trader HAS to COME TO THE END OF THEMSELVES as a necessary pre-condition to true learning, in trading financial markets. Learning is only possible when the DESIRE to change is the motivating influence, and my personal view is that the decision HAS to be accompanied with a deep emotional desire for "NO MORE" ... the "enough-is-enough" stage of the development of the trader.

I can only speak from experience. The "no more" experience can be mild, or wrenchingly traumatic - we will all experience this differently.

Note: Negative Reinforcement is NOT punishment – it is a learned avoidance response that leads to better outcomes, by avoiding negative situations.

A teacher can put useful information out there – write a book of facts, and draw admiring “oohs and aahs.”

A good teacher may even elicit some students to begin to try some of the material.

A GREAT teacher will not only evoke an enthusiastic application of the material, but will draw positive feedback and desire to apply even more learning principles, and drive the student forward to ever higher accomplishment. That’s how I see it.

How many traders truly turn their trading around as a result of books, courses, webinars, seminars, coaching, mentoring and so on?

Some? Many? Any? How do we know?

Well the “beaten path to the door” test will give you that answer.

How many traders are lining up 9 deep to follow Mark Douglas’ principles (to name one professional)? If not, why not? Why are the statistics bogged down in the "95% of traders fail” level, after 15 years of open involvement of the general public in financial markets? What’s wrong with the industry, that we have this deplorable situation?

It is my view that the industry is just catering to a perceived need. That “need” is for traders to have someone hold their hand, and tell them/show them how to make money, in just a few weeks of involvement in trading. This industry has sprung up to cater for the lazy, and those unwilling to do the work to get their act together properly.

I can point to the rampant proliferation of websites promoting Robotic Trading, Signal Services, Trading Systems, Newsletters, DVD Courses, Books and Webinars, Trading Rooms, Weekend Seminars, Retreats, Chat Rooms, and so on, as evidence that this industry is built around people who wannabe traders, but never cut the cord with their mother, and learned to stand up on their own feet.

I won’t go into the Gen X – Gen Y thing – the entitled generations - that might be a thread on its own!

Finally, when Mark Douglas advocated “Discipline” as per his title, did he allude to Consistency in Application of a Written Strategy/Plan, and Commitment to following that plan? I honestly can not remember, and if he did, then I probably will not have much to take issue with.

But I doubt he got the message over very well – because as stated above, the world of traders is NOT beating a path to his door.

General failure is STILL 95% … we are told.

Thanks again for your input here.