[Rande Howell]

Originally Posted by MightyMouse »

Rande,

Would you say it is a fair statement that if someone is experiencing fear in trading, no matter what the category of fear they have, that they simply do not want the outcome?
Put another way: someone who has a trade plan, who has the set ups, who has the capital, and simply cannot perform because of fear. Would you say that whatever their fear is, it is greater than their desire for the outcome?

Even if you remotely agree, then could another approach be to increase the persons desire for the outcome rather than working on the fear?


MM

MM -- This is an interesting query. When state of mind is being influenced by fear, it's not that they do not want the desired outcome -- it is more like that fear, and its nature, hijacks the brain/mind of the trader to be able to act from a state of mind that allows him to risk uncertainty of the outcome -- which is essential in trading. Either through the glitch of evolutionary programming or through the development of meaning during the brain's formative stages, fear and uncertainty become a fused interpretation of risk. Fear will allows stop potential in its tracks. This association has to be de-constructed for the trader to begin to think from a probabilities state of mind rather than a survival state of mind. Until this happens, fear overwhelms all the preparation of the trader in the trade. It's not so much that the fear is greater than the desire for outcome -- it is more like the limbic brain's response to threat as fear simply renders the trader's higher order thinking inoperable.

The trader must have desire. But he has to be able to act on that desire from a higher functioning state of mind. The Army trains its soldiers in simulated battle conditions because they want to train the brain to think clearly in the midst of the chaos of war (uncertainty to a trader). They mold the brain/mind to be able to do this very intentionally. It is at this moment that a soldier's desire to perform well in the uncertainty of battle becomes a possibility. Desire, by itself, is never enough. I've never met a trader who didn't have the desire to trade well. But I've met many who are not equipped emotionally or psychologically to perform in this arena.

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

doesn't this sort of assume that everyone will start out as a scalper..Not everyone is suited to a scalping as you say, but from what I am reading into it, while you dont like to pigeon hole people into characteristics, there is an assumption that everyone starts out as a scalper of sorts or at least with a similar trading style.
That may be true in the day trading sphere i guess.
Which comes first the chicken or the egg?

(I'm not trying to be difficult, just feeling like a discussion )
and yes, in terms of the types of fears, the website looks interesting

This is not the intent of my response. I used scalping as an example as I use an intra-day trader in the next line to demonstrate a different set of parameters. I make no assumption that "everyone starts out as a scalper". Traders come to the game from different histories, different termperments, and different motivations. The common denominator is that the brain/mind is biologically built around survival. And survival is organized around fear. Human beings have the option to transend biologically driven fear. We are the ones that can actually tease apart the hardwired association between fear and uncertainty. And trading is the perfect environment for this development to occur.

If you are going to develop as a successful trader, you will have to separate these two building blocks of cognition apart. And a probabilies mindset accepts risk as part of the game. When this mindset has been achieved that allows you to recognize that (with your methodology) you have probability on your side and you can let go of fear (there's no saber tooth tiger staulking you), then you can trade from a mindset that lets go of outcome. This is a transendit moment. You are not gambling. Probability is on your side. You are calm, detached, and confident. What a great way to develop a belief system that brings hope into the world.

Rande Howell

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by MightyMouse »

Rande,

Would you say it is a fair statement that if someone is experiencing fear in trading, no matter what the category of fear they have, that they simply do not want the outcome?
Put another way: someone who has a trade plan, who has the set ups, who has the capital, and simply cannot perform because of fear. Would you say that whatever their fear is, it is greater than their desire for the outcome?

Even if you remotely agree, then could another approach be to increase the persons desire for the outcome rather than working on the fear? MM

Excellent question, Mighty Mouse - and one which provokes thought - thank you. In the past I have experienced raw fear in trading - so much so that the anxiety of taking a severe loss caused me to sweat profusely. I didn't like that one bit, and it taught me to stick to risk management principles.

Even today - I do not claim to have overcome this fear - but I would like to very much. As late as 12 hours ago, I was short the AUDUSD, and experienced a small pullback rally. Instead of using the pullback as an opportunity for another strategic entry in the short direction, I procrastinated, and felt the anxiety rising. In fact, all the old ghosts of failed setups were knocking on my door - I am not happy to admit that, but do so unashamedly.

History shows the AUDUSD indeed fell off the table, and my trade was secure and went on to make 70 pips before stalling. In fact the trade could have made another 40 pips for me. But it stalled, and I closed early. I took what I thought the market was offering at the time. I protected what I had, before the price activity took my profits back. Nothing wrong there.

But increasing my desire for the outcome might only have served to increase my degree of desperation and anxiety - both are qualities with which I have struggled to be rid, in my trading.

However, I feel that if my desire to achieve an outcome is strong enough, then it behoves me to prepare diligently and operate consistently to achieve that outcome. But what if all that diligent preparation failed to achieve the outcome - where does that leave me emotionally?

So I have to go with an approach that reduces anxiety, and offers reassurance in the face of a failed setup. This can certainly be achieved with understanding and applying an edge. For me, it is the loss of control that spooks me, and I don't like that feeling one bit.

But I suspect a better approach might be to follow what Rande is saying:

Originally Posted by Rande Howell

Emotion and the meaning of self that becomes attached to the emotion is engine of transformation. It is not to be avoided. It is our call to develop the skills and tools that give us the capacity to work with our emotions that is critical.

I find that my performance somehow defines the "me" in my psyche ... perhaps it is the "id" - perhaps the inhibitory effect of an active Superego - I am not well-enough apprised of the subject to be able to say. But while I still have the anxiety of placing myself and my performance on the line with each trade, I am never going to rid myself of that anxiety and fear.

My coping mechanism therefore, to this point, has been to develop a strategy and a method that has a high probability of reaching my desired targets. The longer I trade in terms of weeks and months, the less this fear strikes me as I write up another failed trade. But I find that I do not equally reward myself for a successful trade.

Why is that?
Why do I put more weight on the negative than on the positive aspects of my trading?

[quote=Rande Howell]The common denominator is that the brain/mind is biologically built around survival. And survival is organized around fear. Human beings have the option to transcend biologically driven fear. We are the ones that can actually tease apart the hardwired association between fear and uncertainty. And trading is the perfect environment for this development to occur.

If you are going to develop as a successful trader, you will have to separate these two building blocks of cognition apart. And a probabilities mindset accepts risk as part of the game. When this mindset has been achieved that allows you to recognize that (with your methodology) you have probability on your side and you can let go of fear (there's no saber tooth tiger stalking you), then you can trade from a mindset that lets go of outcome.

This is a transcendent moment.
You are not gambling.
Probability is on your side.
You are calm, detached, and confident.
What a great way to develop a belief system that brings hope into the world. Rande Howell

Rande - I want to believe that ... you are calm, detached, and confident ... but this has not been my experience.

So what is the next step?
Because quite frankly I want to be trading a good setup with an equally good state of mind.

Success is not enough.

Peace ... ease ... of mind MUST also be the bedfellows of success.

Footnote - I am still getting through much of the material you have written on this site, and on your website - thank you for making the material available. I am sure there is a profitable journey here somewhere! I am now one of your students.

[Rande Howell]

[/QUOTE]Why do I put more weight on the negative than on the positive aspects of my trading?



Rande - I want to believe that ... you are calm, detached, and confident ... but this has not been my experience.

So what is the next step?
Because quite frankly I want to be trading a good setup with an equally good state of mind.

Success is not enough.

Peace ... ease ... of mind MUST also be the bedfellows of success.

Footnote - I am still getting through much of the material you have written on this site, and on your website - thank you for making the material available. I am sure there is a profitable journey here somewhere! I am now one of your students.[/QUOTE]

First, the reason you have a bias to focus on the negative rather than the positive is biological in nature, compounded by your adapted psychology. That is how we survived so well -- by negatively assessing the environment because it was a dangerous place. It's why the news is only newsworthy when it is negative. Our attention is drawn to be aware of the negative.

This is a very interesting question about the management of emotional state and performance. I will be posting to my blog on TL on Monday actual correspondence with a client of mine who has moved from trading NOT TO LOSE to trading from a calm, detached, confident state of mind (what I call a trader's state of mind). This is something he developed with emotional labor. Part of his discussion may seem a foreign to some of you because the dialog will be using some of my jardon that I use in my higher level training. It will address exactly the inquery you have here.

Fundamentally, trading is life on steriods. The difference between the life you have in trading and the life you lead in your ordinary world is that the very psychological demons that you can successfully avoided dealing with in your ordinary world come staulking you in your trading world -- hence trading is life on steriods.

Rande Howell

[jeremymullins79]

Uncertainty goes hand in hand with motivation and it is the level of motivation that represents the "trade drive". If a trader is uncertain than his abilities look uncertain. Facial expressions and hand gestures are the most common indicators which show uncertainty.

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by jeremymullins79 »

Uncertainty goes hand in hand with motivation and it is the level of motivation that represents the "trade drive". If a trader is uncertain than his abilities look uncertain. Facial expressions and hand gestures are the most common indicators which show uncertainty.

Maybe the trader is trying to make you think he is uncertain.

[Tradewinds]

Originally Posted by MightyMouse »

. . .could another approach be to increase the persons desire for the outcome rather than working on the fear? MM

I've thought about this myself, and I think it's a good point. My question is: Can you increase the desire without addressing the fear? Or does a person need to do both at the same time? Or do they need to address the fear first? Or something else.

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by Tradewinds »

I've thought about this myself, and I think it's a good point. My question is: Can you increase the desire without addressing the fear? Or does a person need to do both at the same time? Or do they need to address the fear first? Or something else.

You only think about fear if you are comfortable. If you are hungry or greedy enough, you will ignore the fear.

If you were walking along a path and you saw horse dung, you may or may not notice that there is undigested corn in it. The thought of eating the corn wouldn't even cross your mind.However, if you were starving enough, you would examine it closely hoping to find the corn so that you can eat it. Comfort and Hunger

When you have enough and are no longer hungry, then you need to become greedy. If you don't, the market will take your fat and happy ass and make it hungry again.


MM