[FXGirl]

I’ve avoided taking part in this discussion so far because so much of the focus has been on psychodynamic theory and concepts. But, as a cognitive-behavioral-whatever-works therapist, I finally decided that I'd like to say something about this.

Recent research (last 10 years) involving SPECT scans shows us that much of what we have thought of as personality dysfunction, is brain dysfunction. Many obsessive-compulsive, anxiety, depression, and impulse control issues are the result of brains that aren’t functioning correctly. Address the problems (using diet, supplements, drugs, exercise, learning activities, etc.) in the brain and thoughts and behavior change. Fail to address the problems in the brain, and all the psychotherapy, psychodynamic or cog-behavioral, will be at best of limited value and, at worst, a waste of time.

My guess is that many traders who invariably get out too soon, or can’t make themselves take the trade, or move their stops, and so on, are suffering from varying degrees of brain dysfunction. If these problems can be addressed, then the remaining behavioral difficulties with their trading can be addressed in relatively short order. And I do mean, in short order…. and assuming they have a system that actually works.

For those who have a healthy brain, the biggest problem is finding their edge. The prevailing way of thinking about trading begins with the assumption that you have to develop your own system. The rational behind this advice seems to be that this is the only way to truly learn how the market works (I would argue with this assumption, but that is for another thread). The problem for new traders is that they don’t have the experience or knowledge to develop a successful system. So, problems with the system get confounded with problems of execution (psychology) – sometimes for years. So, it seems to me that if you are going to try to help someone with the psychological issues of trading, it is important for both of you to know, not assume, that the system being traded really does have an edge.

The best psychologist (meaning the most effective) I ever met told me that people don’t seek help if they could figure it out for themselves. Although I believe that only the client can make psychological changes, if all we do is “be present”, the service we offer to our clients is limited. A faithful dog could do as well. Simply being present or simply being empathetic is the perfect scenario for coaching (or therapy for that matter) to drag on for months and/or years. Although there are clients who already know what they need to change and how to do it and a coach who is an empathetic sounding board is all they require, most traders aren’t in that position. Remember, we are doing coaching here, not therapy. What we are after is behavioral change. These traders have tried everything they know to change their behavior and their strategies haven’t been successful.

You can root around trying to uncover unconscious conflicts, fusional complexes, dissociation, etc. as the basis for your bad trades, or you can focus on how to change behavior in the here and now. We are not trying to help a client have a better marriage, related to his mother in a more positive way, or increase his level of satisfaction in the bedroom. Instead, we are trying to impact at a limited, specific set of behaviors.

Most people come to trading as a way to make money. Certainly, trading can have the additional benefit of allowing you to explore who you are and how you approach life, just as any other difficult challenge can. However, a coach’s job is to help a client develop behavioral strategies that support their trading goals. In my opinion, a psychodynamic approach may work eventually, but it is the long, winding road to the goal of making money through trading.

[DugDug]

Hi FX Girl - "What we are after is behavioral change."

Thats actually an interesting and a very valid point - especially in a thread about know thyself.

As I guess what you are really saying in a general way - who cares what you think, what you want to know about yourself, who cares what your hangups are, issues and rationale for trading and why you have certain trading issues - the key to all this is not to actually know yourself, the key is to change yourself. To eliminate the bad habits and replace them with good ones through an actual process of coaching and training - not just constant analysis.
(I also think that when people do say - just get some discipline - it is along the lines of saying if you are not prepared to actually change your behaviour and become disciplined about your approach then its going to be tough to improve as you are not even prepared/open to change your behaviour in the first place....)

Its similar to evidence based management which essentially makes business decisions based on the actual results and the evidence as opposed to making decisions based on a philosophy, false business myths or other such generalised rules of thumb based on analysis derived from generalised ideas.eg; all teenagers like computer games therefore lets design the banking websites around a game. (i am sure most people, including teenagers dont want their bank to pretend they are gamers - however the evidence might prove me wrong on this)

I like the approach of here is the problem - how do we change the behaviour to fix the problem, more so than try and work out why the problem occurs in the first place (eg; mummy did not love me enough and let me wear her high heels when I was a child )

[zdo]

Originally Posted by FXGirl »

I’ve avoided taking part in this discussion so far because so much of the focus has been on psychodynamic theory and concepts. But, as a cognitive-behavioral-whatever-works therapist, I finally decided that I'd like to say something about this.

Recent research (last 10 years) involving SPECT scans shows us that much of what we have thought of as personality dysfunction, is brain dysfunction. Many obsessive-compulsive, anxiety, depression, and impulse control issues are the result of brains that aren’t functioning correctly. Address the problems (using diet, supplements, drugs, exercise, learning activities, etc.) in the brain and thoughts and behavior change. Fail to address the problems in the brain, and all the psychotherapy, psychodynamic or cog-behavioral, will be at best of limited value and, at worst, a waste of time.

…the remaining behavioral difficulties with their trading can be addressed in relatively short order. And I do mean, in short order…. and assuming they have a system that actually works.

For those who have a healthy brain, the biggest problem is finding their edge. The prevailing way of thinking about trading begins with the assumption that you have to develop your own system. The rational behind this advice seems to be that this is the only way to truly learn how the market …
Although I believe that only the client can make psychological changes, if all we do is “be present”, the service we offer to our clients is limited. A faithful dog could do as well. Simply being present or simply being empathetic is the perfect scenario for coaching (or therapy for that matter) to drag on for months and/or years.
…

You can root around trying to uncover unconscious conflicts, fusional complexes, dissociation, etc. as the basis for your bad trades, or you can focus on how to change behavior in the here and now. We are not trying to help a client have a better marriage, related to his mother in a more positive way, or increase his level of satisfaction in the bedroom. Instead, we are trying to impact at a limited, specific set of behaviors.
…
… a psychodynamic approach may work eventually, but it is the long, winding road to the goal of making money through trading.

FxGirl,
My first reaction - This is a ‘know thyself’ not a ‘change thyself’ thread.
It was founded on curiosity about differing perspectives on the latest in ‘know thyself’ / 'aware thyself' stuff to deepen our understanding of humans in general for traders in particular, etc - with some license of a little bit of questioning and discussion of ‘dynamics’ btw. Our posts about “psycho dynamics”, “unconscious conflicts, fusional complexes, dissociation, etc” may be worthless to you and most likely millions of other traders – but I really appreciate them.
So I’m not that sure we need to push all that aside in every single thread without exception, cut these amateur discussions, and just ‘change behaviors’…
Besides, there are no threads on the internet anywhere about that . Let’s kill this thread now so we don’t interfere. Please forgive us TL. Hello ET.

re: “if all we do is “be present”” That was sharing about my own labors and challenges of working with others. You’re a professional. I’m not. Let’s face it, I simply could never be a professional … Out the gate I’ve got incredibly low tolerance for the time it takes someone to even briefly talk about themselves, their ‘feelings’, etc. (and I love it when someone can get right to succinctly describing and working on the ‘behaviors’…)
Just because I have to work issues like being nonjudgmental, or even listening at all, etc doesn’t mean in the least that in my sessions we don’t WORK hard start to finish. I push my peeps a whole lot damn harder than any ‘professional’ dares - and if you don’t believe me PM me and I’ll clear it with the one of them and you can ask him yourself what we did to help him change his own ‘brain’, remove unwanted states, etc…Ask him if there was any long term waiting around for insights…

re: “suffering from varying degrees of brain dysfunction” Excellent point. I was hankering at this in ‘Other areas to consider’ post herein a while back However, I think if you stick with it you’ll ultimately find that it’s not just brain dysfunctions. It’s even better seen as whole body dysfunctions, of which changing the ‘brains’ is only a (major) part…

re: “The prevailing way of thinking about trading begins with the assumption that you have to develop your own system” Au contraire! If we could accurately sample the trading population more likely we would find that > 80% have little interest in developing their own system (especially for the reasons I encourage it). Rather they are just looking for something that works right now – thinking that will sustain them across time. In addition, whether they are upfront about it or not, most trading coaches and psychologists would prefer a client assimilate the coach’s own system. All system vendors, including the ones who provide the ‘free’ psychology guidance, definitely operate with the opposite of that ‘assumption’. So I’m challenging your attribution that developing your own system is “he prevailing way of thinking” in the industry …
and re “the only way to truly learn how the market works” : That is not anywhere near the top of the list of why I insist that traders should develop their own systems.

On topic herein is not really about the ‘changing’ part of the process ( but content about that is for the most part accepted.) Rather, on topic is more about the ‘awareness’ parts of the process…In this thread, we are not "trying to impact at a limited, specific set of behaviors".
And it really is ok for you to initiate threads fxGirl and contributions about ‘brain changing’ would be much appreciated here and from many others I’m sure…

All the best

[FXGirl]

Dear Zdo:

I’m genuinely sorry if I upset you by entering a post that was somehow in contradiction to the spirit of this “know thyself” thread. I had simply hoped to expand the discussion. Since most threads seem to wander, I wasn’t aware that the topic was limited. However, if we are going to explore ‘know thyself’, don’t you think that ‘know thyself’ generally leads to ‘change thyself’ or at least “accept thyself”, which is a form of change?

“Our posts about “psycho dynamics”, “unconscious conflicts, fusional complexes, dissociation, etc” may be worthless to you and most likely millions of other traders – but I really appreciate them.” I’m delighted that this thread has been a place where you and others have had an opportunity to discuss these theoretical approaches; however, I believe that there are other equally valuable approaches to ‘know thyself’. I don’t think we have to limit ourselves to one approach, do you?

“However, I think if you stick with it you’ll ultimately find that it’s not just brain dysfunctions. It’s even better seen as whole body dysfunctions, of which changing the ‘brains’ is only a (major) part…” Now this is a very interesting issue. The Heart Math people would certainly agree with you that the brain is not the only locus of control. And certainly many people report that their “gut” feelings are an important part of their way of knowing. And, any one who has done neurofeedback or biofeedback knows that the mind and body are intimately connected. And many over-learned (practice, practice, practice) activities such as shooting baskets, hitting a golf ball, and marksmanship seem to have a ‘body memory’ associated with their optimal performance. I wonder if successful trading doesn’t also have a similar aspect. Nevertheless, it seems that if the brain isn’t functioning correctly, thoughts and feelings are deeply affected. I’d like to address this issue first, then go on to others.

“So I’m challenging your attribution that developing your own system is “the prevailing way of thinking” in the industry …” Well, you might be right here, Zdo. However, I have seen people who claim to be experienced traders give that advice to beginners over and over again in forums here, on LinkedIn, Facebook, etc., and in a myriad of articles on trading. You said that you insist that traders develop their own systems, but for a different reason. I’d be interested in what that reason is.

“On topic herein is not really about the ‘changing’ part of the process (but content about that is for the most part accepted.) Rather, on topic is more about the ‘awareness’ parts of the process…” People become aware by observing their thoughts, feelings and behaviors. But once you attach a label such as a fusional complex, or an unconscious conflict, you are a long ways down the road past awareness and into a system that defines your thoughts, feelings and behaviors as functional or dysfunctional (or at least on a continuum with functional at one end and dysfunctional at the other) and that posits ways to change them. Which is fine by me. However, with great respect for all that psychoanalytic concepts have given to the field, I personally prefer a different orientation for the development of ‘know thyself’.

Best Regards,
FxGirl

[zdo]

Hi,

fxGirl, re “whole body dysfunctions”
One way of progressing here, while keeping it nervous system / wet ware oriented, is to see the whole of the nervous system as ‘the brain’
leads to
Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influences Mood and Well-Being: Scientific American
etc.

While it is ok to just stay CNS oriented, I was taking it even further. Still in the realm of biology, the ‘brains’ (as whole nervous system) have little lasting modulation capacity over binding in the fascia ‘bags’, sensory motor amnesia, the ‘stress arousal syndrome’ in general, or even over residual muscle tension, etc. – all conditions whose absence is crucial to flow, frequent entry into the ‘zone’, or just plain ole performance at a high level.
Then beyond empirical ‘biology’ (but still in and of the magno-electric spectrum) we are of many bodies. Some of them ‘non local’…

Only a tiny % think these conditions have any effect at all on trading performance.
I have found they have tremendous impact on trading (and all) performance.
“Until we learn to manage our biology, our psychology will be overwhelmed.”
Rande Howell


Will get to your other comments as time and energy permits.
Am also starting a ‘Change thyself’ thread. Please fire away.

zdo

[Rande Howell]

Your beliefs, your states of mind, and your biases (who you think we are) become embedded in the neuro pathways of your brain. It is from this interfacing substrate called your brain that your mind emerges. When you recognize the dominant emotion that the brain (and mind) organize around is fear and that you are biologically and psychologically biased to avoid our fears, it is an easy jump to understand why trading can expose our lack of skills for managing our fear and denial of fear -- and why only 5% of traders actually make money consistently. What fears drive a person's psyche while trading? Fear of loss, fear of inadequacy, fear of not being right, fear of self sabotage, and fear of missing out. ALL ARE UNAVOIDABLE. You may blind yourself to them, but, in trading, your trading account will have final judgment. The avoidance of fear may turn into grandiosity, but underneath the arrogence is fear. All are powerful emotional states that overwhelm your thinking and the maintaince of states of mind conducive to effective trading. The key in developing an effective personal psychology for the innner game of trading is to first develop the courage to face your fears. That affords you the opportunity to reorganize your understanding of the self. This has tremendous impact on performance in trading. Then, developing the skills to invoke particular states of mind for performance, opens the possibility of designing the states of mind that you trade from. Each of these states of mind come with a self fulfilling prophesy machine called the brain. The Holy Grail is not the trading plan (there are many effective platforms and plans around). Emotional state and state of mind management is the greatest skill a trader will ever develop. Rande

[BlowFish]

Originally Posted by FXGirl »

Recent research (last 10 years) involving SPECT scans shows us that much of what we have thought of as personality dysfunction, is brain dysfunction. Many obsessive-compulsive, anxiety, depression, and impulse control issues are the result of brains that aren’t functioning correctly.

Damn I was hoping to avoid the full frontal lobotomy (I feel a bit guilty joking in response to such a serious post). Seriously though, how does one go about identify if this is the case and determining an appropriate course of action to deal with it? A quick interwebz search for "brain dysfunction" would seem to suggest that it covers a wide variety of conditions from low blood sugar to tumours.

[DugDug]

over the years I have developed a brain dysfunction from hitting my head on the desk numerous times : crap::c rap: