[zdo]

Barely on topic…re state of the "art"
'cross wiring...'
‘staggering diversity…”
‘difference between interest and passion…’
“explaining an enigma with a metaphor...”

Biology, Psychology, Art – V. S. Ramachandran – " Neurology & Art "

..."neurons that fire together, stay together.", etc
making a case for vsa-like conspiracies in what is produced for traders to see?

I appreciate all the posts. It was not intentionally a "drive by OP". Will make some time to respond and hopefully contribute…

[james_gsx]

Originally Posted by DugDug »

Not to get into an argument James but I think you are actually agreeing to disagree with yourself if that makes sense..

Absolutely

I'm not here to say traders psychology is bad, I'm playing devils advocate to the idea - mainly because I see it get abused too often.

[JBWTrader]

Hey James

In your Math degree dont forget to do a lot of Stats mate...!! I wish I had done a lot more of that many years ago ...instead of the old pure and applied.



Best
John

[zdo]

Many make trading just a simple ‘decision’ process. “There are just four kinds of bets. There are good bets, bad bets, bets that you win, and bets that you lose. Winning a bad bet can be the most dangerous outcome of all, because a success of that kind can encourage you to take more bad bets in the future. You can also lose a good bet, but if you keep placing good bets, over time, the law of averages will be working for you.” Larry Hite, a successful trend trader. As James has been banging at – how much do we really need to fathom the depths of our souls to do that? One short answer is – some of us more than others. Another short answer – it’s not how good you are but how good you want to be. “First things first” Another short answer – a trader who know’s himself at the beginning will be able to sort through the “trading education” material much more efficiently and quickly find edges that match his or her nature…

Two specific questions triggered me to broaden the questioning out to the old general saw ‘know thyself’ stuff and start the thread. In my own processes, I noticed varying awareness of when I was susceptible to making trading mistakes / poor decisions and was asking the horrible question of ‘why?’ Then, in another trader who I mentor, I observed a cyclic variability in his subjective awareness of incentives which really had impact on his consistency and (maybe falsely) concluded that sustaining a consistently sufficient level of in the moment awareness of incentives is more important than what the actual incentives are or even being aware of the particulars of one’s incentives. Anyways, those questions reminded me again of the whole ‘know thyself’ area…

So moving the questioning a little bit - What is the best of ‘know thyself’?


…a few responses to some of your posts

- imaginary fields seen/felt and described between patient and therapist
- fusional complex and the feeling state cycle of order to chaos and order again
- Paranoid Schizoid function in Child development

Could you expand on these a little bit? Thanks.

Rather than know yourself perhaps know why you are trading, know what you want from the market, as Sekoyta intimates. I guess it is money that originally attracts people to the markets but once they are there they play out all sorts of other dramas. Is it even money that people really want (which is just bits in a bank) or the things that go with it? A sense of self worth, a job done well, respect of your peers, dare I say power?

First, I would modify "Every one gets what the want from the market". to "Every one gets what they intend from the market". My experience with mentoring described above convinced me that for many, it’s not the broad incentives that are at issue. Rather, it’s the subtleties and vagaries of keeping them in awareness during one’s ‘trading session’…

I guess you only need to know the bits of yourself that motivate and effect your interaction with the markets?

see first things first comments above and below. This “only need to know the bits” sort of goes to an approach of doing your very best with what is conscious and assuming the unconscious will take care of itself ?

re:

edge first
records/analysis second
Self third if necessary

That makes workable sense and 700 gurus can’t be wrong! But, for me, that order proved to be sub optimal. After years of faithfully doing just that, something a Jungian therapist turned trader once said triggered me to take a much more deliberative and balanced approach. I learned to build a practice of immediately following self work with edge work and of immediately following edge work with self work…building a habit of immediately following progress in either ‘side’ with serious, value finding (not problem solving) questions about the most recent progression’s implications to the other side. Because often there is no immediate apparent connection with the other, (ie for me, JBWt’s “mirrors” are more often than not, difficult to attenuate to), this kind of work is more arduous - but it brings geometric returns. Your 'system' is found within you as much as it is found objectively.


re metaphors in general, and

I am quite wary of 'trading as war', or 'trading as combat' metaphors. That's just not me and whilst I enjoy a good argument (err I mean debate) I find 'real' conflict distressing, especially violent conflict.

I’ve grown quite wary of all the trading metaphors I ever had. For the last 10 years or so, my practice is to kill all my trading metaphors when they occur to me. I rarely encourage others to do the same and paradoxically, the practice has actually made me more ‘compassionate’ about other’s trading metaphors…








Other areas to consider -
Personal genetics. Not many ‘subjective’ ways to know thyself on this one except by tendencies. I theorize that we may have several distinct genetically ‘determined’ variances in amygdale reactivity and influence. If you watched the Neurology and Art video, subtle cross wiring in neighborhoods of the brain could result in patterns in one trader that another trader simply has no chance of ever relating to or understanding. I suspect there are several, if not many, other distinct genetic typings for perception idiosyncrasies, managing uncertainty, even possibly whether we are with trend or contrary, etc. But testing for these markers not so far fetched anymore.

Biofeedback - realtime HEG, GSR, HRV – also not so far fetched anymore

Enculturation. Enculturation is a fairly fat term for what goes on in this area. The simple term ‘Learning’ could be used but I prefer enculturation because it alludes more to the slippage from flow a child surrenders to - to join the culture. fxGirl mentioned meditation. From the ‘east’, Lao Tzu councils us to unlearn all the reactive patterns we learned through the years and relearn through observation. This way we understand why it is best to do a certain thing based on certain conditions. ..."neurons that fire together, stay together." so much of what we do in meditation, mindfulness, qi gong, etc is deconstructing previously wired sympathetic responses and ‘wiring’ / grooving new parasympathetic pathways...once conditioned responses weaken we can truly interact with the actual environment …”If we react the same way to similar conditions we actually are establishing something close to an instinct. And I think that this is not good… ” some taoist bum. I am opening a sibling thread - similar title...

All the best and again thanks for all the posts.

[zdo]

“Victory Destroys Knowledge” Dan John.

[Rande Howell]

Due to lack of self knowledge, most traders actually lose before they make the trade. Why? Because they trade from fear (or self-doubt, grandiosity, or impulsivity -- even confusion). Because our brain is so organized around the avoidance of fear (which easily overwhelms our thinging, we rarely confront our fears head on and learn from them. And, for most, this pattern of avoidance (though a highly ineffective adaptation) can be maintained without too much challenge. Trading cuts through the elaborately constructed alibis of avoidance like a knife. In trading there is no wiggle room. The trader either wins or loses, whereas in other endeavors there is greater gray area for "fish stories" -- self deception. The connection between methodology and mind set creates performance. Any state of mind outside of a calm, impartial sense of authority is a poor psychological set up for trading. What I like about trading is that it forces you to "know thyself" or you will not be a profitable trader. It's a great personal development path.
Rande Howell

[DugDug]

rather than trading forcing you to "know yourself" I find that it forces you to be more "truthful/honest to yourself"
I consider these completely separate.

[Rande Howell]

I can understand that. I know very few people who willingly will practice self honesty with themselves. Most are initially forced to acknowledge that they are going to have to examine themselves. Simply would have avoided it if it were possible. When you take on an attitude of curiosity then self inquiry becomes a great way of reorganizing the self into higher functioning. From my experience with working with people, a train wreck or two is required to wake up to the need for self honesty. Maybe that's why only 5% of traders actually make money trading. They've stopped hiding from themselves and are genuinely curious about the possibility of who they can become.
Rande