[MadMarketScientist]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

1) how do you know as a teacher that your students are not tweaking their preparation after a string of losses....and this maybe causing them issues?

I'm not a teacher but as a student I believe it is necessary to at least step back and look at why the losses are occurring. Maybe the prep is wrong or maybe the timing is off but I would venture to say some tweaking is expected. steve46 would you agree with that?

MMS

[SIUYA]

Originally Posted by MightyMouse »

Siuya,

Some traders have a method that they researched that they know is right and can call bottoms and tops withing 1-2 points, they can catch the majority of a move, and they are correct 80% of the time. When you learn this method, you do not make mistakes and if you do make a mistake, you know right where the mistake is made and you can correct it without it having an impact on your psyche for the next trade. It is so good that a student who, by definition, is still learning can apply it and know that he his right and thereby avoid the pitfalls of being gun shy like the other 300 million traders who learn to trade.

I am not sure why this is not clear and obvious to you.

MM

MM many things are clear and obvious with hindsight, but in assuming your tongue is not in your cheek....

1) If as a teacher - how do you know if your students are following the method and dont create issues?

I think the turtle trading experiment was interesting in that the method was shown to work...it was simple, it had straightforward rules, all the prep was all carried out and the stats for the previous trading was shown to work - Dennis was successful, and the method could be backtested on a computer.... in other words there was no real reason why every student could not succeed.....and yet not all did.
Curtis Faith was one of the successful ones (at least initially during the experiment and there is even conjecture about weather he was following the rules http://www.turtletrader.com/curtis-f...rformance.html) - and in a nutshell as I read it from his books one of his interpretations as to why others failed is that they basically were gun shy and did not take some of the trades.

Maybe as a teacher you dont care.....which is fine in itself - maybe this boils back down to the nature v nurture debate and if trading one persons particular method can really be taught - or weather it really does need to be suited to a particular personality.

Interested in feedback from those that teach and charge for this?

[steve46]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

so in other words - preparation is key. It will stop/minimise/correct a lot of mental problems.
I can agree with this 100%....

But take it one step further for me, be more than than just 1dimensional "prep is essential", which is the point I am trying to get to in this discussion......

1) how do you know as a teacher that your students are not tweaking their preparation after a string of losses....and this maybe causing them issues?

2) do you have any suggestions for people to recognize that their preparation - or their over tweaking of it and looking for the holy grail, is actually doing them more harm than good?

This is on the basis of ....too much prep can stop some people from pulling the trigger - they want the perfect setup, are surprised when things dont go their way even after all their prep, they oversize their trades thinking that everything is perfect and they have a plan all perfectly mapped out, but reality has that way of biting hard.

(All the monte carlo simulations in real world trading are not Vegas maths.....too many boffins forget that in their search for perfection)

thanks.

OK, since you are asking "for someone else" let me make a couple of suggestions.
First, if a person is really serious about this, sooner or later they will need to find a skilled experienced trader, willing to let them see how it is done....Personally I don't thing you can learn this profession by reading a book, or taking a weekend course or a webinar.....there is just too much detail, and nuance that has to be explained in person....
You ask how I can know that my students are tweaking their prep correctly....and my answer is that I only have a few students and I watch them very carefully....Furthermore in addition to the regular trading session, I hold periodic weekend meetings where we educate the student to make sure that they know just how important it is to be detail oriented.
Since we are few (the class will max out at 20 students) everyone knows whether you are executing properly, whether you are following the discipline, whether you are taking profit correctly and whether you are managing risk...In a small class you can't hid anything....
Finally, all of us (including myself) will be reporting our results on a quarterly basis.

I dont' really have the time to wonder whether people are overthinking, overtweaking, or whatever it is that you are suggesting. All I know is that I have been doing this "right" for many years...and when I show others how to do it, if they are motivated and pay attention, they make money....its that simple.

Regarding the last part of your question. There are adjustments that have to be made. They are seasonal adjustments and as such, they are no surprise. For example I tell my students that during the summer months we are going to make adjustments to our profit taking rules and we are going to change (slightly) when and how we place our stoploss...When there is no surprise and the adjustments are orderly, the impact is minimal....in fact it is part of what I teach the student to do....adapt to changing conditions...

I hope this answers your questions (because we are in process of preparing for fed day)
See you later

Steve

[SIUYA]

Originally Posted by steve46 »

OK, since you are asking "for someone else" let me make a couple of suggestions.

you are such a skeptic Steve.
it was like this one time at band camp...and a friend of mine - lets say he was an Iranian...and he wanted to know if something meant he was gay.

so it seems in answer to the questions..
1) how do you know as a teacher that your students are not tweaking their preparation after a string of losses....and this maybe causing them issues?

answer ......you dont - especially when they leave your course/tutelage, and if the feedback is mostly positive after this and no one actually gives feedback during the course they might be having issues then - I guess its working.

2) do you have any suggestions for people to recognize that their preparation - or their over tweaking of it and looking for the holy grail, is actually doing them more harm than good?

answer....you dont - apart from stick to the preparation and if you are making money then you must be doing something right.

.................
Dont get me wrong here Steve I think this makes perfect sense as the ultimate aim here is to make money and why reinvent the wheel. I was more curious as to your ideas/ results as a teacher as it seems that many traders - and it seems this is the case in Randes examples - that often traders who know what they are doing can become gun shy....its not just a new trader issue.....hence my line of questioning.

thanks. Enjoy Mr B

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by steve46 »

An excellent question! First, my environment is unique. I learned how to prepare properly and I cannot remember the last time I was surprised by a long string of losing trades. it just doesn't happen to me or my students.

Steve

Suppose you were a poker player and someone who plays Texas Hold'em told you that he cannot remember the last time he or the people he taught to play poker have lost with a pair of aces in the hole. What would you think?

A.) He has been very lucky

B.) He is a liar

C.) Either A or B is a possible answer

D.) He is such a good poker player that when he gets aces he wins.

If you are not a poker player and were aspiring to play professionally, you might choose D, but after lots and lots of hands and experience, you learn that D is just not possible.

Depending on your people reading skills, you may be able to pinpoint which of A or B it is exactly but it is not necessary to do so since C includes the logical disjunction.

[steve46]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

you are such a skeptic Steve.
it was like this one time at band camp...and a friend of mine - lets say he was an Iranian...and he wanted to know if something meant he was gay.

so it seems in answer to the questions..
1) how do you know as a teacher that your students are not tweaking their preparation after a string of losses....and this maybe causing them issues?

answer ......you dont - especially when they leave your course/tutelage, and if the feedback is mostly positive after this and no one actually gives feedback during the course they might be having issues then - I guess its working.

2) do you have any suggestions for people to recognize that their preparation - or their over tweaking of it and looking for the holy grail, is actually doing them more harm than good?

answer....you dont - apart from stick to the preparation and if you are making money then you must be doing something right.

.................
Dont get me wrong here Steve I think this makes perfect sense as the ultimate aim here is to make money and why reinvent the wheel. I was more curious as to your ideas/ results as a teacher as it seems that many traders - and it seems this is the case in Randes examples - that often traders who know what they are doing can become gun shy....its not just a new trader issue.....hence my line of questioning.

thanks. Enjoy Mr B

I answered your questions carefully. I can only answer from my point of view. How do I know what another teacher is doing? or not doing?

In answer to your question about what to do specifically I offered a link to a very well written commentary on testing...apparently it was too much work for you to read and comprehend the text...

My answer remains the same. The difference between pros and amateurs is in great part, about preparation....you prepare by testing your system and evaluating the results. You correct what doesn't work (thats called adapting to the environment) and you add risk management. The rest is all about discipline....The kinds of questions that have been asked in your last two posts are very similar to those asked by my students....that is why I am surprised that you suggest that you have 17 years of experience behind you. I have to say I have my hands full with my class in progress....so if you expect me to put on a seminar on the details, I don't have the time or the inclination to do that...sorry.

[SIUYA]

steve once again you cant but help imply that everyone else is clearly an idiot.
Its such a shame. You always seem to be defending and defining yourself by putting others down.
.
While in trying to ask some questions about your experiences as a teacher - I did not ask what your opinions of other teaches were, or what they are doing, so not sure where this came from.....
The written commentary on testing was read thankyou. - I have read it previously along with many other articles on testing. I with someone I paid wrote a portfolio backtesting system in Excel, and have also purchased off the shelf systems for portfolio back testing - not the single instrument or pretend portfolio systems often sold.....so your rather condescending and unnecessary comments about apparently being too much work make me wonder and laugh. Plus if thats the best article you can come up with.....sheesh.
The suggestion that I have 17 years experience as opposed to you in one post where you say you have X years (does that mean you have not hit a round number yet??)......well actually it is a fact, and I unlike you am completely able to understand that there are many things I dont know, and would like to learn. I also loose money some times, get ill disciplined and lazy, itchy, hungry and gassy.
I know there are many ways to do things that can be successful and I dont really feed the same need you do to build yourself up by putting others down....but certainly can if its required.
I understand over those 17 human years - not dog years - that the way I do things suits me, is not for everyone and yet at the same time I realise that others can benefit from a free and open discussion of various methods with out condescension, name calling and the like ......

Most teachers have no problems with any question and actually encourage even dumb questions, and encourage discussion....the question I ask may seem simple to some, but may help others (like that gay Iranian fellow)

So I have no problems in believing you Steve and I can accept that you are a guru trader and I have no real clear evidence other than that - so thats fine, but you do offer clear evidence that you need to do some preparation and learning in your teaching style and social skills

At present I have plenty of spare time, all my back testing, preparation and experience occasionally allows me that.

and Steve you still miss the point of the whole thread it seems - all the preparation in the world, all the backtests, all the monte carlo simulations, all the magic fairy dust in the world may not prevent issues regarding being gun shy.........but thanks for the input.

[steve46]

I suspect you are feeling like an idiot because you have exaggerated your credentials and your experience trading.

I did not offer an opinion of other teachers, I simply said I had no way of knowing what they were doing or not doing....If you are uncertain about what I have said, I suggest you re-read my post...rather than continuing to mis-represent my comment.

I understand your point clearly, however my experience does not support your conclusion....In fact quite the opposite.

thanks for your input