[torero]

It's true that self-sabotage will be self-evident in your own personal life when you interact with others and view of yourself. How many times did you lose control when a certain situation didn't go your way, say lost a friendly game, got into an argument with a family member, lose your job, etc. if those moments made you feel like a nobody or a loser, next thing to do was validate that feeling by either going out on a drinking binge or something that just to inflict yourself and say, "you see, you are a loser." If those scenarios sound familiar, there's your answer.

Been there, I got over when I realized what I was trading exactly the same way I acted out in real life. I remember many times I would go into a drawdown, I didn't try to pick myself pick or walk away and count to 10 and refocus, I just kept getting back in and re-validate what I thought of myself in a negative way. When I started to make changes in correcting my thought process and deal with the aftermath of a situation above, things somehow smoothed really well. I trusted in myself NOT to lose control, not to inflict myself by validating my view of worthlessness by doing just the opposite. That simple change made a huge difference in trading. Try it, you may like it. What turned me around was actually a parenthood site that a list of recommendations on how to be a better parent. It was an eye-opener. Like Elder with his AA analogies, I felt more identified with parenthood problems. Made a huge impact on me.

[Bfbusa]

Well, I my self sabotaging ways re-merged again today, but this time, I was taking notice. It comes from within. I find that when I see a setup develop, I manage to justify to my self why I should not take the trade only to watch, that it would have been profitable.

I think I am very lucky to have found a setup that I find works in most market environments but very often let it go buy. I think I have left almost as much money on the table as lost in losing trades.

After letting a few go by that would have worked you finally get into one and get stopped out.

I am going to have to force myself to trade a smaller size and just take the setups as they come. That will be the hard paqrt.

[BlowFish]

I wonder if its the good old subconscious doing what's best for you (not). You know the drill - had a few losses - felt a bit uncomfortable (or worse). I can protect you from this says the subconscious. The same mechanism that stops you touching the proverbial hot stove. Of course we know intellectually that losses are all part of the game and that there is nothing inherently dangerous about the market. Even knowing this it can be difficult to reprogram the subconscious so it stops getting in the way. I know it is for me.

Cheers,
Nick.

[rolange]

I was reading an interview recently with Larry Pesavento and in it he states that he 'abhors electronic trading' and places all his orders via phoning the broker. I believe several other high profile traders also do this.

Has anybody here switched from clicking a mouse to phoning through orders?

Psychologically it may have its benefits to self sabotaging traders?

May prevent over trading and revenge trading.

Take away the well known issues of pulling the trigger.

Connect the trader to a real person and hence the real world.

Any thoughts?

[torero]

I used to do that before electronic trading became the standard. The problem with electronic trading is that you have total control from start to finish, so everyone tends to handle the trade in some way that is within reach. With the broker by phone, once the order is in, nothing can be done (unless you call him back repeatedly asking to change the order, he'd be p.o.). So phone broker might do the job for some. Trading is about total control of ourselves. If we fail in some parts, we lose. The other extreme is to invest money in a fund and let others do the trading.

Originally Posted by torero »

The problem with electronic trading is that you have total control from start to finish, so everyone tends to handle the trade in some way that is within reach. With the broker by phone, once the order is in, nothing can be done (unless you call him back repeatedly asking to change the order, he'd be p.o.). So phone broker might do the job for some.

Since you can now place pit orders using a standard electronic DOM with some platforms (like Open E Cry's OEC Trader), the need for a live broker call is fast being supplanted by technology.

Of course, the filling pit broker on the other end can and will reject multiple attempts to change pit orders when they are being worked, so using pit orders might not be the best thing to do in a fast moving market, I'd say.

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by Bfbusa »

Well, I my self sabotaging ways re-merged again today, but this time, I was taking notice. It comes from within. I find that when I see a setup develop, I manage to justify to my self why I should not take the trade only to watch, that it would have been profitable.

I think I am very lucky to have found a setup that I find works in most market environments but very often let it go buy. I think I have left almost as much money on the table as lost in losing trades.

After letting a few go by that would have worked you finally get into one and get stopped out.

I am going to have to force myself to trade a smaller size and just take the setups as they come. That will be the hard paqrt.

bf - I can sympathize here. I think a secondary question (perhaps new thread) is - how many setups can you 'miss' or decide not to take, before you just have to call it a day and walk away. B/c as you've seen, it's a terribly difficult game to win when you are playing these games w/ yourself. Only you can really answer this, but it may need to added to your general rule book to help prevent days like you described. I've been there many times before... you see setup 1 and say no thanks for whatever reason (maybe the doc can help with that) and of course, this trade goes for a nice profit. You then get mad and upset that you saw the trade in real-time, did nothing, and you SHOULD have made money... sound familiar?

I would offer two suggestions:
1) As I mentioned, see if there's a correlation between missing your winning trades and then taking later trades. In other words, if you see looking back that as soon as you miss 2 or 3 that the odds are you are going to lose when you do go live, you gotta walk away after that 2nd missed trade. It's not easy, but it may be necessary depending on just how different your results are when trades are missed.

2) Just take 'em all. :p I know, easier said than done, but if your setup is as good as you know it is, you NEED to take all the setups or you will go insane. Literally, you could lead yourself down a path to the Traders Insane Laboratory. One idea that a good friend gave me was that if you can take a step back and act like you are just trading someone else's system for them as a hired employee, that can help in the mental battle. Basically, you go into work with the thinking that you are simply doing your job which is to look for the XYZ pattern and then act. That's it. No regard for wins or losses.

Good luck bf, but understand we've all been there. Eventually you'll get to the point where you have to take the trades or you will drive yourself into insanity. We all know trading is hard enough as it is, but when you have an edge and are unable/unwilling to exploit it when it's there is worse than having a losing system in my opinion.

One last idea is that if you really, really want the setup critiqued, post it here. I'm not saying you need to do this as I have never fully disclosed how I trade, although most of it is here, maybe you have a confidence issue with the setup. My above comments work under the assumption that you know the trade setup works. Maybe you aren't fully on board yet. That could be the problem and it would be very easy to see why. The fear of losing is a strong motivator. Again, just an idea, but if you post the setup and ask for critiques, I'm sure you'll get some here.