[Rande Howell]

Recently a trader asked me if you had to have a "robber" mentality to be a successful trader because it seemed, to him at least, that good trader takes money from less competent traders. My observation to him was that, for sure, this is one particular way to look at trading. I asked to look at the natural world and tell me if the wolf "robs" the deer in the preditor/prey dance they live in. Both actually need each other to survive. This is simply the dance they exist in. It is our perspective that characterizes the situation. It is simply the cycle of life and death in the natural world. George Seros used this anology to describe trading. He observes for the bubbles and exits before their collapse. The naive and ignorant get sucked into a bubble of their own doing and the seasoned trader plays the game of trading. The question is what do you observe about your self in relationship to others. In the natural world preditors consume the vast majority of the young (the naive) before they reach maturity. They do not attack the healthy (that's high risk). The same goes with trading. Trading is just taken to an order that is beyond the biology of the natural world. I would seek a mentor to learn the ropes before I ventured out into the world unprepared. Of course, that's opens up a whole new can of worms.

Rande Howell

[Marubozu]

Perhaps you do need to have a robber mentality it may be more beneficial than the mentality of a saint... or a preacher of altruism.

I see all profits as a form of exploitation of a person or resource, I don't see how any profit is formed with out something some where being exploited. We can pretend all day long that business is fair, but on the contrary.

The key difference is a robber attacks some one who is unsuspecting, a trader is basically having a bet with another trader, its completely fair as both people have defined their risk or at least you would hope they have and then the game unfolds.

But I do think you have to be ok with the idea that in each trade there is a looser and a winner and sometimes the guy who is loosing may not be able to cone back from his loss.

He chooses to play the game. If I am right I take his money, if I am wrong he takes my money. Its as simple as that for me.

[Rande Howell]

Originally Posted by Marubozu »

He chooses to play the game. If I am right I take his money, if I am wrong he takes my money. Its as simple as that for me.

Whether it's trading football, basketball, population growth and decline, or love interests -- playing the game opens the possibility of winners and losers. I'm personally looking forward to a great game this weekend. That's the dance of life in what ever form it takes. If the loser learns from his mistakes, then the loss is the price to learn competence. If you don't learn (adapt) from your losses, then you end up in extinction. But no one robbed anyone, unless you happen to be an ex-GoldmanSachs guy running MF Global.

Rande Howell

[Obsidian]

Buyer willingly agrees to buy, seller willingly agrees to sell...who is robber?

[SIUYA]

Originally Posted by Obsidian »

Buyer willingly agrees to buy, seller willingly agrees to sell...who is robber?

the government, the brokers, the tax man, your partner if you win or loose!
I would hate to think that my local store owner thinks himself as a robber and us the customers as his victims.

You can justify your existance anyway you like I guess.
There was one guy who was a good trader, but ultimately a complete prick of a human being.

He actually used to say and acted on this belief - "I was brought up to believe that you are trying to screw me over and hence I will do it to you first - and you are the fool for not stopping me, or beating me.....life is a competition"

I hope he is happy.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

......................... ........................
There was one guy who was a good trader, but ultimately a complete prick of a human being.

He actually used to say and acted on this belief - "I was brought up to believe that you are trying to screw me over and hence I will do it to you first - and you are the fool for not stopping me, or beating me.....life is a competition"

I hope he is happy.

Ahhhh yes indeed, this is the twelfth commandment.

"Do unto others before they do it to you"

Just in case you are wondering after the eleventh commandment.

"Thou shalt not get caught"

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

the government, the brokers, the tax man, your partner if you win or loose!......

hehehe well you are right about that

[jaysmith124]

I think it is important to note that morals can impede your progress. To what extent are decisions guided by morals? On the surface, and when under pressure when opportunities arise.

I have run into two situations where Real Estate Agents took advantage of an opportunity. One under-priced a house in her interest. The house next door sold $30k under market in 2004. The pool was not used and needed cleaning. Three thousand was deducted for pool re-plastering. After the sale the pool was cleaned and filled along with house cleanup and some tree trimming and planting. It sold for an 80,000 profit after being flipped. Another incident a coworker was taken advantage of mad at himself for trusting the real estate agent.

It is buyer beware wherever you do business. Each industry has unwritten standards. About a year after the flipping of the house next door, I inquired with another real estate agent about selling my house. I brought up the name of the real estate agent who under-priced the house next door, and before I said anything she told me that that agent was real good. Opportunists are amongst the best known in their field of practice, and get away with it. Morals are flexible. They adapt to the situation. Some people can be respected for certain actions, while another will be castigated for the same behavior. Maybe we have to earn our right to take advantage of certain situations.

If you are a person of character, integrity, and with strict moral standards... you may unconsciously, or consciously, think you are doing something wrong if trading successfully. You don’t want to be castigated. Especially, if shorting stock. Or, it could be used as an excuse not to become successful for some other unconscious reason. But in trading we don’t have to earn the right to take advantage of opportunity. This reminds me of discussions that have come up where traders ask what they tell others what they do when asked. This shows an underlying fear coming to consciousness.

How does a trader deal with the fear of being a bad person? Instead of believing that there must be a winner and a loser consider the possibility that there are transactions with a winner and a winner. Is this possible? Out of the group of traders who have the shares you need a portion will benefit from the exchange. They will be taking profit, or getting into a position and take a profit some future time. So, it is a choice to believe what is going on behind the scenes of a transaction. I can choose to believe what will work for me. That could be that I choose not to pick a belief about something that does not matter. (if this ever mattered, or limited, me in the past it doesn't any more)

How does a trader deal with a belief that he is, or will be, a victim? You don’t have to be a victim unless you think you are. Unless you are predicting the future. (which can cause worry)

This is an example amongst a multitude of phobias we are conditioned to, and can choose to deal with. Besides phobias, the feelings of Guilt, Shame, and Worry will cause anxiety, affect the capacity for change, and limit growth.