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Old 12-07-2012, 08:20 AM   #9

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Re: Topsteptrader

kuokam.. As I said previously originally they did not show the loss limits but instead just showed the ACCOUNT SIZES. In reality, you trade futures on leverage and they would cut you at a small loss which makes the account size irrelevant. What matters is the loss limit because it tells you what the payoff is if you pass the requirements.

TST program is setup where the trader pays a fee to have a chance to get backed. It is critical to understand how much the pay off is in relation to how much the fee is in order to understand whether the deal makes sense or not.

I think the most honest approach would be to just leave the account size off completely or calculate it based on the risk allocation and the margin for max contracts permitted.

If you can't see how showing a trader that they are "funded with 35k" but in reality will be cut (sent back to sim) if they lose $1000 is dishonest then I'm not sure how I can make it any more clear. It'd be like me saying: Pay me $1,000 for a chance to trade my MILLION DOLLAR TRADING account. Only catch is that if you lose $1500 then I'm cutting you. You see how ridiculous that is? Do you also see how most people see the million dollars and wouldn't read the fine print?

Do you by chance work for TST? Because this is pretty basic stuff that I'm sure most readers will understand. Apparently even TST realized it wasn't right because they changed the page to now show the loss limits -- which I fully agree with.

Last edited by Predictor; 12-07-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:30 AM   #10
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Re: Topsteptrader

Predictor, thanks for explaining the realities

I had never heard of TST before… it looks like a good spinoff for an IB (or a ___)

The questions those considering application would need to ask and answer…
in light of the actual ‘returns’ for the ‘tuition’ costs – would it be worth it?
Although they probably paint it like it’s the answer for everyone, their ‘training’ will ultimately reveal itself to be a ‘niche’ approach… of all the combine members, what percentage will really be a fit for that approach? Typically, it’s about one in a hundred.
Are you that one in a hundred?
Would it be safe to say - "If you don’t need the training, you don’t need TST." ???
If you become a trader with them, are you contracted for a time period?
etc.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:06 PM   #11

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Re: Topsteptrader

zdo... Good points. They let you trade own account if you pass but I think they put up a 1 year hold if you leave (before you to go another prop shop). They don't offer training. They do have a psychologist and offer various "products" -- most of which fall into the entertainment category.

I think the program is much better then it used to be. Now the total loss limit is 3x the daily loss limit before it was just 2x loss limit which was just plain ridiculous Note, if you touch the daily loss limit on any day then its back to the sim.

I have considered it. The last time I evaluated it I just couldn't make the numbers work -- to make sense. But, if they improve the program/odds then it could be worth trying. None of the other prop firms will take remote traders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zdo »
Predictor, thanks for explaining the realities

I had never heard of TST before… it looks like a good spinoff for an IB (or a ___)

The questions those considering application would need to ask and answer…
in light of the actual ‘returns’ for the ‘tuition’ costs – would it be worth it?
Although they probably paint it like it’s the answer for everyone, their ‘training’ will ultimately reveal itself to be a ‘niche’ approach… of all the combine members, what percentage will really be a fit for that approach? Typically, it’s about one in a hundred.
Are you that one in a hundred?
Would it be safe to say - "If you don’t need the training, you don’t need TST." ???
If you become a trader with them, are you contracted for a time period?
etc.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:55 PM   #12
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Re: Topsteptrader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predictor »
They don't offer training.
The links below aren't ‘training’ ?
("Training" that you better be at if you expect to 'make the team' ?)


Quote:
Step 1
Membership(Optional)
Warm up and work out your trading skills with a no-risk development program. Gain access to our trading coaches and classes, experience the Live Squawk Radio (Squawk Box), and utilize our trading tools as long as you’d like as you become a confident futures trader.
Trading Program Online | Learn to Trade | TopstepTrader

and

Quote:
With the help of a professional trading coach, use this time to create, learn or develop a successful trading strategy; all the while utilizing access to the trader development tools listed on the left.
Learn to Trade | Trading Program | TopstepTrader Membership

///
and more...
Trading Coaches | Trading Tools | TopstepTrader
Trading Resources | Trading Education | TopStepTrader
Trading Classes | Learn Futures Trading | TopstepTrader

This isn’t ‘training’ ?

fwiw, I'm generally vendor neutral - all the while broadcasting that vendors are typically a fit for far fewer 'students' than they claim... Just being a devils advocate for noobs here ... since the usual suspects haven't picked up the ball (- yet )
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:01 PM   #13

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Re: Topsteptrader

zdo:
Michael Patak, patak head-honcho, has stated numerous times they don't train traders. They don't offer training of any sort. They may have changed this recently but that's been their line from Day 1. They offer psychological training but not how to trade. I'm just trying to inform the readers here of what their deal is.

I honestly believe this is one of the few things they do that make sense.. as a prop firm you don't want everyone trading the same way.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:46 PM   #14

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Re: Topsteptrader

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCullen »
I became involved with Topstep over a year ago and its truly amazing how I have grown as a trader over the last year. I wanted to be a trader and when I graduated college TST just seemed like the perfect place to get started. I had always kept an eye on the markets but didn't have any real trading experience, TST provided me that experience without having to open an account with my own capital.

In my opinion, this is the best place you can be if you have a desire to make trading a career. Whether you are an advanced trader or a beginner (like myself), TopStep Trader provides you a great opportunity to improve your trading without losing a fortune by first proving you are profitable on a simulated account. After you prove you can make money on a simulated account, they will pair you with an equity partner to begin trading real money. This is a place that will shoot you straight because they don't succeed unless you succeed. They don't offer you the "next hot trading tip" and won't sugarcoat anything. It is up to you, the trader, to make your own success and TST certainly provides you with more than enough tools to become successful. The mission of TST is to scout and develop trading talent - and they will do anything to help you develop.

While you are trading at TST, you are required to be in a chat room. Eddie, the market broadcaster, moderates the room of 140+ traders that consists of both recruits and live traders. Eddie and his partner, John Hoagland, are located right next to the S&P pit and do a great job of sensing the market atmosphere. The chat room is a special place and really does have the feeling of a community. Traders are constantly sharing their trading ideas with each other and Eddie does a great job of keeping the traders' spirits high, something that I feel is necessary to be a successful trader. Also, throughout the day you will be able to listen to interviews from TST's President Mike Patak and several other experienced traders to help improve yourself as a trader.

All in all, if you want to be a trader this is the place to be.
Is that dummy number 1? ... ok,put me on to dummy number 2......
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #15

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Re: Topsteptrader

Quote:
Originally Posted by patriciap »
Topstep Trader has a great community of both beginners and advanced day traders. They have a chat room and a market broadcaster who keeps us up to date with news and pit action. They also have a course called Intuitive Development for Traders, which helps a lot in understanding the psychology of trading, and how to stay focused and disciplined. In order to get a live account with them, you have to reach a profit objective and adhere to their scouting rules. I would strongly recommend this program to anyone interested in learning how to day trade.
Dummy number 2? ...looking forward (not) to you and your mate's 2nd ever post which really belong in ET
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:22 PM   #16

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Re: Topsteptrader

mitsubishi: Yes, the first ever posters stick out like a sore thumb. However, I'm glad that TopStepTrader chose to post here because it allows for an unbiased discussion about their offerings.

I applaud the admins here for providing a positive atmosphere where both vendors, trader/vendors, and traders can share and discuss without being viciously attacked. Some forums go quite far in protecting their "streams of income", i.e paying vendors, at the cost of honest and unbiased discussion -- while at the same time stifling trader/vendors (non paying) from sharing and contributing.

I've been shut out of more then a few discussions because I offered a trading system or sold a product. And the reality was that I was offering the best information, the best content, of anyone in the group. The tendency to stereotype and come to wrong conclusions is common. As such, I know both sides of the coin.

One of the reason I'm versed on the TST program is because I've monitored it sense inception as I considered to do it. I believe the IDEA has a lot of promise. There aren't many sources of funding for traders.

The question each has to ask is whether or not the value proposition is there... When they first started, I decided for me it wasn't there. Perhaps due to exposure or better sense, they've made changes to the program for the better. Right now, I'm undecided if the value is there. I don't suspect it is but I'll continue to monitor the program.

You know one of the main problems I have with the whole idea still is that if I'm funding a trader and they perform consistently then I will ramp them up to the maximum leverage I'm comfortable with them using quickly. I actually met and discussed a position at one of the largest prop firms in the US (stocks not futures). The head guy said listen: we don't start you at much but as you prove yourself we'll ramp you up to unlimited buying power. I didn't take the position because the firm was clearly having trouble. But this was the real deal and what he said made sense.

As such, it has always felt strange to me that they have tiers. If I'm a backer then I'm always going to start a trader at the minimum leverage and make them prove themselves -- least risk for me. I once talked to a joker on the phone who wanted to know if I could handle a 100 lot-- anyone who would start an unknown trader at 100 lot doesn't have too many marbles. At the same time, if a trader is consistent then like the head manager at the firm I spoke with, I'm going to ramp him up the maximum I'm comfortable with very rapidly. I guess they could have their reasons, i.e psychology or whatever. But still the tiered approach has always seemed "unique" to me.
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