[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by Dinerotrader »

Well for my first day with real money, it was a crappy day. Many lessons learned. I want to say that I picked a bad day to start but trading is full of days where you don't get the setups you want so you just have to sit on your hands. I should have been a little smarter and waited until we got out of the choppy areas before taking some trades. I shouldn't have traded the ES at all but I thought I should at least get a few trades in on it so I could tell how it traded live.

A little disheartening but I know losses occur and I know I traded in many spots where the danger level was too high. At least now I can start writing a draft of my market wizard chapter where I talk about my first loss in futures before I became the greatest trader of all time.

Dinero - I know it's not the day you were looking for, but DO NOT TOUCH THE ES!!! I'm shocked that you didn't touch it at all in your sim and then you go live and decide to try it with real money? That market is so 'botted' to death that it's not for the new trader, nor one that hasn't touched it before. Please turn that chart off. Use the RLM if you want an index.

[Gabe2004]

Originally Posted by brownsfan019 »

Dinero - I know it's not the day you were looking for, but DO NOT TOUCH THE ES!!! I'm shocked that you didn't touch it at all in your sim and then you go live and decide to try it with real money? That market is so 'botted' to death that it's not for the new trader, nor one that hasn't touched it before. Please turn that chart off. Use the RLM if you want an index.

I was trading live the SPY as a proxy for ES and I lost money.
Switched to IWM which is the ETF equivalent to the SF (RLM).
THere is somewhat of an improvement.

Gabe

[Dinerotrader]

Originally Posted by brownsfan019 »

Dinero - I know it's not the day you were looking for, but DO NOT TOUCH THE ES!!! I'm shocked that you didn't touch it at all in your sim and then you go live and decide to try it with real money? That market is so 'botted' to death that it's not for the new trader, nor one that hasn't touched it before. Please turn that chart off. Use the RLM if you want an index.

I tried it in SIM a few times but stopped because the fills weren't realistic at all. You are correct of course. I haven't yet developed any good approach to trade the ES yet so I shouldn't have tried it. I looked back at my charts zoomed at a little and I was just way to focused on the tiny moves. The CL short was such an obvious breakout. I got into some of it because of the momentum but I didn't have my eye on that level, which is unbelieveable since I watch those levels constantly. Plus, the CL went right down to the bottom of the channel I noted on the Oil thread and bounced right off that support area.

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by Gabe2004 »

I was trading live the SPY as a proxy for ES and I lost money.
Switched to IWM which is the ETF equivalent to the SF (RLM).
THere is somewhat of an improvement.

Gabe

It's simple really - the ES has the most volume, which tells us that the biggest traders with the biggest, fastest computers and the biggest bankrolls are playing there. And it's not even humans you are up against, it's massive computer algo's that can make a decision quicker than we can blink. It's also why you'll see the ES creep up 1 tick, then down 2 ticks, then up 3, then down 1... those guys are trading such huge size they can make a killing just pushing it up a tick here and there; meanwhile retail guys get shaken out easily.

The Russell on the other hand does not have that same participation? How do I know? Look at the volume. Even though the bots may exist there, they cannot play the same huge volume push games that are played on the ES. Other bots and/or retail guys would crush them for doing that. When the Russell decides to move, it moves. IMO it's a more level playing field.

As I said in thales' thread, trading is hard enough as it is, the last thing you want to do is to create even more hurdles to jump - whether that be trading forex where quotes can vary or the ES where the bots will churn you up slowly but surely.

The Russell reminds me of oil and soybeans - plenty of volume to daytrade, minimal bot activity and tremendous swings. My current Russell profit target is 3 pts = $300. $300 on the ES is asking for 6 ES points. Good luck getting into an ES trade that swiftly moves 6 points w/o chopping you up or grabbing your stop; however the Russell can and does move +3 pts at times like nothing.

The ES is great if you are going to trade huge size and go for smaller ticks IMO. Bathrobe is one of the few retail guys that I've seen do it.

Dropping the ES from my trading was one of the single best things I ever did to increase profitability and lower stress levels.

[Dinerotrader]

Originally Posted by brownsfan019 »

Dropping the ES from my trading was one of the single best things I ever did to increase profitability and lower stress levels.

Why is it so common for daytraders to trade the ES since most of them aren't trading it with large size (the major reason for trading it) that I am aware of. My guess is that the required margin is so small. We need some kind of poll here on TL so we can see of all the active traders, what futures they are trading. It sometimes feels like we are the only ones watching/trading oil and soybeans but I would think others must be also.

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by Dinerotrader »

Why is it so common for daytraders to trade the ES since most of them aren't trading it with large size (the major reason for trading it) that I am aware of. My guess is that the required margin is so small.

I'm sure $500 (or less) margins attract many of the $5k pikers that last a week and are gone. And if the majority of retail guys are trading this and the majority of retail traders lose... hmmmm.....

Originally Posted by Dinerotrader »

We need some kind of poll here on TL so we can see of all the active traders, what futures they are trading. It sometimes feels like we are the only ones watching/trading oil and soybeans but I would think others must be also.

Honestly Dinero, I could care less what others are on this forum watch or trade as there's no way to distinguish those that trade for a living and those that trade for a hobby. If you aren't doing this for a living, your opinion is coming from a very different point of view than mine. This is not a hobby for me as it is for many.

If we know that the herd mentality is typically wrong, then I want most retail guys trading the ES and grinding out a tick here and there. If we know that most retail traders lose and fade out and most want to master the ES (but never do) then I want nothing to do with those odds. If we know that the big boys and their algos are all over the ES and they are much better at this than me, I want nothing to do with that.

Here's where a poker analogy can work - when you pick your poker game, you can pick what opponents to play. There's the big games @ Bobby's room in Vegas or there's 1 penny / 2 penny online and everything in between. If you can easily beat $1/$2 but get crushed at $100/$200, do you keep playing $100/$200? I say no. I say beat what is easier and take the profits. That's me. Some would say keep playing the $100/$200 b/c you might eventually beat it if you can survive long enough. Same with the ES - you might eventually beat it but many will fade out before that time ever comes.

In the end, you get to choose your opponent in trading. I choose to go where it's the easiest (read: not easy) for me to make money. I choose to go where my setups routinely work and yield net positive results over time in the easiest way possible. And right now, that means trading oil, the Russell and soybeans. If one of those die out, then I will look for a replacement or just trade the 2 that are working. This is also why I think it's smart to watch multiple markets and trade your highest probability setups vs. staring at 1 market waiting to trade. Can you imagine staring at the ES chart all day? No thank you.

Choose your trading opponents carefully as they are out for 1 thing: YOUR MONEY.

[edabreu]

I am beginning to really hate the 'new' ES. Today was the first decent ES trade I have had in a long while.
The CL & TF have been working well, and I may be dropping or at least not trading (just looking which seems to be what I have been doing anyways since you can't trade that thing with all those autobots and) the ES and may add another quick trending instrument. Beans?

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by edabreu »

I am beginning to really hate the 'new' ES. Today was the first decent ES trade I have had in a long while.
The CL & TF have been working well, and I may be dropping or at least not trading (just looking which seems to be what I have been doing anyways since you can't trade that thing with all those autobots and) the ES and may add another quick trending instrument. Beans?

You know what I'll say - check the ZS out for sure. CL + TF + ZS = quite the trio of liquid, quick moving markets IMO.

There's also bonds and the Euro. Some good choices there as well. I have a love/hate with the Euro so I don't trade it much anymore. I do like Bonds but prefer to focus on oil due to bigger profit potential.