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TinGull

[Volume Based Candles] and how to profit

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I wanted to start a thread dedicated to what brownsfan019 has brought up in another thread. I don't quite understand how to see through volume based charts and candles, so I'd love to hear more about how it can improve ones trading.

 

I was looking at a 2000 contract and 5000 contract based chart and see patterns there, but not sure if I'm looking at things right.

 

I'd love to open this up and hear what brownsfan019 is doing and get some dialog going.

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They're usually called constant volume bars (or candlesticks). They're useful because you can see price and volume as the candlesticks develop without having to look at price and volume separately. High volume would be coming in if a lot of candlesticks formed in a short space of time. For example if you were using 1000V candles then if 5 candles formed in 30 seconds near a support level then this shows big volume (5000 contracts) coming in at that level. It's easier to see in real time than on historical charts.

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Just look very closely at the times the candlesticks formed. Historical charts have this information but you'll need to study them closely. A low volume period would be for example a 1000V candlestick that closed 5 minutes after it opened. A high volume period would be where 5 candlesticks formed in one minute.

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tin - notouch summarized the volume based / share bars charting format very well. Basically in real-time, I can tell just by watching my charts if there's a lot of volume coming thru or not. I don't need tape, a separate volume indicator, or anything. As notouch said, you need to try watching real-time to really see the value.

 

Here's an example while using a candlestick formation - in traditional candlestick analysis a doji symbolizes that the current trend may be coming to an end as the bulls and bears went back and forth and noone won. On a time chart that doji can be saying: 1) the trend is over or 2) the bulls and bears are simply taking a breather.

 

Now, with a volume chart, that doji tells me that XXXX contracts traded in order to produce that, not just traders taking a break. In order for that doji to be produced, the bulls and bears did in fact have a good fight, which is what I want to know and see. I don't want a 'breather', I want a fight.

 

As another trader asked me when I first questionned the share bar method, he asked if I watch my clock when I trade. I replied no. Then it hit me, the time it takes a candle to form is irrelevant. What you want is a candle that is telling you something - either there is action going on or not much is happening right now. I personally want the action/momentum and to participate in that. I don't want to enter a time where volume is low and moves are little. I can't stand trades that take hour(s) to develop. I just don't have the patience.

 

The other big thing for me is that on a time chart with candles during big moves, you aren't going to be able to do much till it's too late. In other words, if the contract moves points over a 3 minute timeframe, that candle is useless. So during big moves, I saw giant candles forming and watched the action take place w/o me. I knew something was going on, yet I had no way to take advantage of it. That same move on a volume based chart can possibly provide me with MANY signals. It's night and day.

 

In the end (for me at least) this is what pushed my trading over the edge. Volume based charts provided me a quick and easy way to visually see what was going on. Rapid candles = rapid volume movements that I want to participate in. Slow candles = low volume that does not help my trades.

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Very nice. I would love to have you do a video presentation sometime on this. It really is an interesting concept that I've never dove into. And candles are your bread and butter, right?

 

Thanks brownsfan, I appreciate the insights.

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And...do you think dojis hold more importance on a volume based chart? Say...after you witness the doji and all the sudden price starts moving fast as hell, you wanna be in on that as quick as possible, yea?

 

:)

 

Thanks again

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Very nice. I would love to have you do a video presentation sometime on this. It really is an interesting concept that I've never dove into. And candles are your bread and butter, right?

 

Thanks brownsfan, I appreciate the insights.

 

Tin - I posted a chart setup of mine here on one of the threads and what I use is simple - volume charts, candles and moving averages. That's it.

 

I guess in essence I am 'reading the tape' as I know many guys here do, but I do it in the form of my chart, not a separate window. When candles are rapidly forming (as notouch's chart showed), I already know there is heavy selling pressure, I don't need a seperate window to show me that (and be a distraction in my opinion).

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Any reversal candles (hammers, dojis, engulfing candles etc) are good indicators with constant volume bars. How quick you move depends on your settings. For scalps you'd use 233V but for a longer term perspective you can use 5000V. I prefer 1000V right now.

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And...do you think dojis hold more importance on a volume based chart? Say...after you witness the doji and all the sudden price starts moving fast as hell, you wanna be in on that as quick as possible, yea?

 

Tin - I think most/all candle patterns hold their water much more on a volume chart vs. a minute chart. The underlying theory of candles is to visually represent the 'fight' between the bulls and the bears. We also know that the more volume being traded at a particular time, the more movements usually happen. So, if you want to see volume and you want a visual representation of the bull/bear fight, there it is on one clean chart.

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now (brow and notouch) you are presenting good arguments.... should I see some charts ? thanks in advance Walter.

 

 

TL is getting wild ¡¡¡ Thanks Soul for making possible this wonderfull familiy ¡¡¡:cool:

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Excellent. Thank you notouch and brown. I did a little looking over some 5kV charts and some 25kV for a longer term view. Interesting things that I'm seeing there. Its weird to not see the volume bars on my chart! HAHA

 

I might just have to start keeping a volume based chart up on my screen to watch from now on. See if it's gonna be something I can benefit from.

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now (brow and notouch) you are presenting good arguments.... should I see some charts ? thanks in advance Walter.

 

Walter - I can post charts, that's not a problem, but as notouch said - you really need to see them in real time. They are just going to look like normal charts unless you pay close attention to the times on the charts. I would suggest opening a chart up with volume bars and compare it in real-time to your time based chart and see how things look.

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Excellent. Thank you notouch and brown. I did a little looking over some 5kV charts and some 25kV for a longer term view. Interesting things that I'm seeing there. Its weird to not see the volume bars on my chart! HAHA

 

I might just have to start keeping a volume based chart up on my screen to watch from now on. See if it's gonna be something I can benefit from.

 

Tin - just like minute charts, volume based charts can be based on how 'quick' you want your charts to move.

 

Try out all different intervals and see what you think. I've read that you should use fib numbers, but I like round numbers. So, I wouldn't worry about setting it at 450 vs. 500 or 1000 vs 1500. Taking a sample of say 500, 2500, 5000, 10,000 could give a nice little sample to look at.

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Here's one I made earlier...

 

This is from a while back. I think it was FOMC which caused the volume.

 

Hi

What format are you using for this chart? I don't seem to be able to view it even though the link [thumbnail] opens in a new window.

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I am enjoying this too! It's like a light bulb just turned on!

 

Q: What are you trading?

A: Shares and Contracts

 

Q: How are they measured, Time or Volume?

A: Volume

 

Q: What kind of chart should you use, Time or Volume?

A: VOLUME!

 

hahahahaha I love it!

 

Now I just need to figure out (1) how to determine what size volume bars to use and (2) how to read candles!

 

I guess the volume bar size that you should use needs to correlate to price movement of the instrument somehow. ie. How much volume causes the price to move. I'm going to start reading about and studying this right now.

 

I think this may be the golden ticket. Thank you for pointing me in this great direction.

 

::EDIT:: Go Browns!!!! :cool:

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Brownsfan,

 

Really enjoying this thread..how did you intially come across volume candles, any educational resources out there?

 

Paul - you know, I first learned about them at elitetrader. That site is mostly garbage, but there are some nuggets if you spend the time reading. I honestly never thought I would get much from a site like that, but one friendly trader brought it to my attention in one of my threads and since then, I just started studying and reading about it.

 

As for books or other stuff, I have not found ANY. Perhaps a mention in a book or something, but nothing really dedicated to it. I have given some thought to writing something up about it down the road.

 

If you are interested in the et thread, here's the link - http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80582&highlight=odd

Keep in mind that as normal over there, the thread delves off into childish name calling and such; BUT there is some good info throughout, esp at the beginning.

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I am enjoying this too! It's like a light bulb just turned on!

 

Q: What are you trading?

A: Shares and Contracts

 

Q: How are they measured, Time or Volume?

A: Volume

 

Q: What kind of chart should you use, Time or Volume?

A: VOLUME!

 

hahahahaha I love it!

 

Now I just need to figure out (1) how to determine what size volume bars to use and (2) how to read candles!

 

I guess the volume bar size that you should use needs to correlate to price movement of the instrument somehow. ie. How much volume causes the price to move. I'm going to start reading about and studying this right now.

 

I think this may be the golden ticket. Thank you for pointing me in this great direction.

 

::EDIT:: Go Browns!!!! :cool:

 

Robert - you just went thru what I went thru when I first learned of them. You have to keep an open mind, but WOW they can really improve your trading.

 

As for reading candles, get Steve Nison books. He's the best and is the candle 'godfather'. His site is http://www.candlecharts.com/. When I got into candles, I got ANYTHING from him I could get my hands on. I have most/all his books and DVD's. I highly recommend the DVD's. I am more visual, so a book only did so much. I've gone to one of his live seminars and while it wasn't cheap, it was well worth the cost of admission. He also now has a MarketScan which is pretty slick. He puts out a newsletter too, so make sure to sign up for that. Maybe some of you could go in on the DVD's to share the costs ... if someone has a DVD burner... ;)

 

FYI - I am not a shill for him, just a very happy customer.

 

As for the size to use, it's really up to you. The smaller the number, the quicker things move, so you must be nimble if trading on a smaller number. A smaller number would be under 500 on the YM in my opinion. As I mentioned, don't fret about the actual number. There's not much difference in a YM chart with 300 and with 400 as the setting. It's really a matter of how quick do you want the candles to print - just like a minute chart. Play with some settings and see what you like. The key is to do this in real-time!!! It's easy in hindsight to say that you would have taken a hammer, but what you may not be seeing is that the hammer formed in 30 seconds and you had about .5 seconds to make your decision to go long.

 

Bear in mind guys, when these things are printing, there's no time to be messing around.

You have to act and act quickly.

This is part of the reason I don't spend much time in the chat room. I just can't watch 3 charts, execute my entries timely and chat.

 

One last note - I mentioned this to MrPaul in a PM, but I want to mention here - if you use candles in traditional analysis, be prepared for rough days in trending markets. The candles in traditional analysis are meant to signify the possible end of a trend, which work great in markets that move up and down during the day. In a strong trending day (like the 500 pt day on the dow) you are going to take losses and possibly many of them depending how many times you want to fight that trend. While that is not easy on the psyche, over time, there's money to be made in the market using candlestick analysis.

 

As Nison likes to say... May the candles light your path to succesful trading (or something like that).

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Here's a chart of todays action that I followed along with. It's a 764V chart. Why that? Well..I couldn't remember fib numbers off the top of my head and this is what I came up with. Oddly enough, I see clearer signals from this chart looking back over a couple weeks than I do with one based on a fib number.

 

The blue arrows are pointing to haramis and the red arrow is an engulfment.

 

Simple, straightforward.

volbar.thumb.jpg.6c796ed8690b99d29def0d3fad208fa1.jpg

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BF: I'm a Broncos fan, but that doesn't mean I can't be a fan of yours :)

 

Would love to see some charts.

 

Also have a trading 101 question: What is the difference between a tick chart and a Volume Chart?

 

VSA tells us that volume=activity and thus tick based volume works where actaul contract volume is not offered. Do you believe the same?

 

The Russell doesn't release volume during the day, only tick volume, would you thus not trade that market or just use ticks?

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Here's a chart of todays action that I followed along with. It's a 764V chart. Why that? Well..I couldn't remember fib numbers off the top of my head and this is what I came up with. Oddly enough, I see clearer signals from this chart looking back over a couple weeks than I do with one based on a fib number.

 

The blue arrows are pointing to haramis and the red arrow is an engulfment.

 

Simple, straightforward.

 

One thing I was going to recommend Tin was to post what the volume setting is at to put things into context.

 

Now, to help everyone understand that candles are NOT bulletproof, I attached the same chart of tin and highlighted all candle patterns that I saw. I did not take into account the indicator at the bottom, just pure candlesticks. I did this not to put a damper on this party, but to show that while candles are extremely good at finding ends of trends, they also sometimes can put you into a trade a little soon (early to the party as I like to say). Which then leads to the discussion of where and how do you place your stops if trading off candlesticks... Perhaps another thread discussion altogether.

 

I want to bring your attention to the part I highlighted in purple. The reason is that you see you first get a hammer (long signal), hanging man (short signal) and then another hammer. I bring this up to point out that if you take the first hammer - end of a little downmove and looks like a double or triple bottom (note the first two hammers that failed in my opinion) and right after you enter, you get a candle formation that is opposite of a long trade - a hanging man, and then right after that you get another green hammer and IF you are still in your long, you made some money.

 

One last thing - and Nison says this a lot to - candles do not provide a profit area/target. As you can see in the chart that tin and I posted, you can see patterns that went for points and others that didn't do much. That's the other part of the equation - where and how do you exit?

 

Again, I am not trying to convince you to stop researching this, I simply want to point out how these can work in real time. It's very easy to say that you would take the hammer or engulfing at the bottom of a trend, but there's also other hammers, engulfings, etc. that appeared in that same move. Why would you not take those?

 

Like I mentioned Tin, I think the actual number being used for the volume bar setting is irrelevant. If you want a quick moving chart, use a smaller number; vice versa for a longer term chart.

5aa70dcd2599e_candlestickanalysis.thumb.png.79f1fc6347cca2712cb209e5cc2bf64c.png

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
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