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TheNegotiator

Is Discipline Enough to Succeed?

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This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very disciplined at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak.

 

My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with discipline. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely disciplined who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the discipline. How important do you consider each factor?

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I don't know much to trading. I only know what I know from hard direct experience and repeated daily practice, note taking, reading, and chart time.

 

But I come to conclusion its all discipline..............................

 

The success that a trader achieves in the markets is directly correlated to one’s trading discipline or lack thereof. Trading discipline is 90 percent of the game. The formula is very simple: Trade with discipline and you will succeed; trade without discipline and you will fail.

 

I have also come to conclusion that I don't feel bad about my previous losses in the beginning. Lets face it, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And guess what.......I still don't know what the hell I am doing. But what I am doing makes sense to me and seems to working thus far. So all that technical and discipline stuff don't mean nothing unless the trader know what the hell they are doing.

 

Just my two cents.:2c:

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:2c:

no.....but with out some form of disclipline and probably more importantly 'motivation and drive' then the other important elements required for success in any field might be difficult.

For trading it involves, plans, thought, testing, preparation, mental toughness blha blah blah.

You need discipline not just to apply during trading but also before pushing the button.

 

for extra reading....

Bounce: The Myth of Talent and the Power of Practice: Amazon.co.uk: Matthew Syed: Books

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Discipline

 

I presume we are discussing 'self discipline' and so here is a definition I read on the net.

 

"Self-discipline can be defined as the ability to motivate oneself in spite of a negative emotional state"

 

If you require the application of self discipline in any endeavour you chose to undertake, then surely you are not fully committed to it from the beginning.

 

In truth, you are most probably attracted to the endeavour through the images you dream up within your fertile mind and you hope that you will grow into it by forcing it upon yourself through the imposition of discipline.

Little do you realise that through this imposition you are shutting down the very components of your emotional state that you need to succeed.

 

And so, let us push on to trading.

 

Our bright young person wants to escape the pressures of the rat race ... and who could blame them for that.

 

They rule out Formula 1 for obvious reasons, Polo is out for obvious reasons, starting up a a mainstream business is too scary and anyway, no bright ideas come to mind ... winning lotto is numerically stacked against the Winner

 

BUT, my goodness ...what about trading ... it is perfect

 

Work my own hours, no qualifying hoops to jump through, holidays in the sun with first class travel and accommodation.... perfect ... just bloody perfect.

 

Now, what I will do is buy some books, buy the most powerful computer for the least amount of money I can find (after all, I am taking on Wall Street) ... and through discipline I will be in the money before this Christmas.

And what is more, I won't quit my day job until I am in the money.

 

I would venture to suggest that almost all aspirants bring some sense of self discipline into trading ..why not, everybody admires self discipline.

 

Now, listen very carefully please ..... Until you rid your head of all the crap you have been taught over a lifetime of manipulation and control in the outside world, you will never join the scarily thin ranks of Long Term Traders .... when I say never, I mean never ever, not next month, not next year, not next decade...I mean never never ever.... I hope that I am not being too subtle... please tell me and I will give you the uncensored version.

 

By all means bring with you the virtues of honesty, respect, decency, good health ... the markets will teach you humility if it has eluded you thus far.

 

If fact, the markets will teach you everything you need to know to trade them successfully.

Yes, you need a creative mind and yes you need an open mind ... golly, there is the first riddle to solve.

Yes you need an emotional state that is 100% committed and I mean every dark corner and recess .... you must be in a state of total emotional commitment. OMG, I need to tackle this challenge and I haven't even opened a Broker's account yet

 

As you approach this state , you will gradually begin to understand what it is to be totally committed...once you have cross this tipping point, there is no looking back as it draws you forward like a magnet.

 

As for discipline, just put it out of your mind and get on with the journey of becoming a Trader

 

 

[/b]

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Discipline as regards trading is very important to me....it is one of the subjects that I cover in depth when I teach students....Because I screen carefully, rather than simply take anyone with a checkbook, I know that those who are in my classes are adults with a history of success that they can call on when (not if) they start to find the road ahead stressful and challenging...

 

I tell my students up front that each person has the right to define their own success....its not my job to do that.....however with regard to HELPING, each person to reach their goals and find that success I tell them clearly, that what is required is that they get on board knowing that this is a group effort...and that each person has an important role to play...

 

In order to do this....they list their goals (they must write their goals out) for everyone to see....and then I ask them to put a time line in place....so that they can see if they are progressing satisfactorilly...at each point along the path, they ask themselves the same question...."am I moving toward my goals each day....am I making satisfactory progress....are there areas in which I need to improve, and if so, what can I do to make improvements so that I stay on track to become a consistently profitable trader"....

 

By the way, nobody wants to do this at first...they say they will, but my experience is that they ALL hold back saying that they don't need to do this part of the work, until I threaten to toss them out of the class....and even then they resist....

 

Ironically those who do comply with this exercise, eventually come to see it as a very important tool for their continuing success...to put it bluntly, you may be able to decieve yourself, but generally speaking you cannot "pull the wool over the eyes" of everyone else in the class...we try to become a community of traders helping each other...

 

Discipline of itself isn't enough but, within a well thought out program, it can serve as a pivotal element for folks who normally wouldn't be able to succeed on their own...

 

Hope this helps some of you..

Edited by steve46

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Discipline is important. So is patience, confidence, aggression, and humility.

 

You need to be patient to wait for the opportunity to appear, confident to take the trade each and every time, and disciplined to follow your rules. You also need to know how to be aggressive when the going is good and humble when you are wrong.

 

Most of this develops when you learn that fear in the market is an illusion. Fear is your minds misinterpretation and assignment of emotion to the unfolding events.

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I have two questions to put to you.

 

 

1 ...do you think that Navy Seal Training is based on discipline.

 

2 .. do you think that the majority of people here on TL think that discipline is one of the main keys to successful trading .... maybe even the most important element of trading

 

look forward to your thoughts.

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In my views, in the context of Trading, discipline is certainly necessary but not sufficient. It needs a combination of many different factors to be consistently successful in this game.

 

In regard to other fields, I would say, it depends. There might be some profession which does not require a lot of intelligence / smartness / imagination / creativity blah blah blah... which is more like a mechanical type of work,, there one could be successful based on discipline.

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Negotiator, Which ‘discipline’ are you talking about? Applied to what? At what point?

Here’s why I ask

 

Is Motivation Enough to Succeed?

 

This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very motivated at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak.

 

My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with motivation. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely motivated who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the motivation. How important do you consider each factor?

 

ie In the replies already posted at least three different ‘uses’ of the word have come up.

In my illustration taking off on the OP, I left ‘motivation’ and ‘passion’ in the same sentence because of sufficient differentiation btwn them… Please make the same qualities of differentiation in the various ‘disciplines’ and ‘places’ and 'durations' they are applied in trading before we jump into attempting answers.

Thanks.

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Hi,

Yes discipline is very important, but so is traders common sense.

One can be very disciplined and still keep loosing, just stepping out on the stops.

For me, personally, discipline comes easier from confidence and confidence from prior success in trading.

Thanks

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Negotiator, Which ‘discipline’ are you talking about? Applied to what? At what point?

Here’s why I ask

 

 

 

ie In the replies already posted at least three different ‘uses’ of the word have come up.

In my illustration taking off on the OP, I left ‘motivation’ and ‘passion’ in the same sentence because of sufficient differentiation btwn them… Please make the same qualities of differentiation in the various ‘disciplines’ and ‘places’ and 'durations' they are applied in trading before we jump into attempting answers.

Thanks.

 

Interesting isn't it? Anyway, I was referring more to discipline as categorised by 'application'.

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I have two questions to put to you.

 

 

1 ...do you think that Navy Seal Training is based on discipline.

 

I'm guessing not very much, but then they most likely take people who have already received a highly disciplined form of training.

 

2 .. do you think that the majority of people here on TL think that discipline is one of the main keys to successful trading .... maybe even the most important element of trading

 

I think the majority of people on the internet believe finding brilliant entry systems is the most important factor in success at trading.

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discipline without knowledge and experience...fail

a trader without confidence....fail

a strategy without money/risk management....fail

an investment without enough capital.....fail

 

there are too many elements involved, in my opinion

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I have two questions to put to you.

 

 

1 ...do you think that Navy Seal Training is based on discipline.

 

2 .. do you think that the majority of people here on TL think that discipline is one of the main keys to successful trading .... maybe even the most important element of trading

 

look forward to your thoughts.

 

Military training is the type of discipline where it comes from the outside in (the discipline of a soldier....someone on the outside telling you what to do). The discipline of a warrior comes from the inside out: waiting for the 'right time' to express your actions based on obvervation and experience. I think for a self-directed trader, the warrior discipline will be much more commonly used, whether it is mechanical and especially discretionary.

 

 

Although special forces training is more for removing your limitations to realize how strong you really are. Then jumping out of an airplane is a piece of cake ;)

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Discipline

 

I presume we are discussing 'self discipline' and so here is a definition I read on the net.

 

"Self-discipline can be defined as the ability to motivate oneself in spite of a negative emotional state"

 

If you require the application of self discipline in any endeavour you chose to undertake, then surely you are not fully committed to it from the beginning.

 

In truth, you are most probably attracted to the endeavour through the images you dream up within your fertile mind and you hope that you will grow into it by forcing it upon yourself through the imposition of discipline.

Little do you realise that through this imposition you are shutting down the very components of your emotional state that you need to succeed.

 

And so, let us push on to trading.

 

Our bright young person wants to escape the pressures of the rat race ... and who could blame them for that.

 

They rule out Formula 1 for obvious reasons, Polo is out for obvious reasons, starting up a a mainstream business is too scary and anyway, no bright ideas come to mind ... winning lotto is numerically stacked against the Winner

 

BUT, my goodness ...what about trading ... it is perfect

 

Work my own hours, no qualifying hoops to jump through, holidays in the sun with first class travel and accommodation.... perfect ... just bloody perfect.

 

Now, what I will do is buy some books, buy the most powerful computer for the least amount of money I can find (after all, I am taking on Wall Street) ... and through discipline I will be in the money before this Christmas.

And what is more, I won't quit my day job until I am in the money.

 

I would venture to suggest that almost all aspirants bring some sense of self discipline into trading ..why not, everybody admires self discipline.

 

Now, listen very carefully please ..... Until you rid your head of all the crap you have been taught over a lifetime of manipulation and control in the outside world, you will never join the scarily thin ranks of Long Term Traders .... when I say never, I mean never ever, not next month, not next year, not next decade...I mean never never ever.... I hope that I am not being too subtle... please tell me and I will give you the uncensored version.

 

By all means bring with you the virtues of honesty, respect, decency, good health ... the markets will teach you humility if it has eluded you thus far.

 

If fact, the markets will teach you everything you need to know to trade them successfully.

Yes, you need a creative mind and yes you need an open mind ... golly, there is the first riddle to solve.

Yes you need an emotional state that is 100% committed and I mean every dark corner and recess .... you must be in a state of total emotional commitment. OMG, I need to tackle this challenge and I haven't even opened a Broker's account yet

 

As you approach this state , you will gradually begin to understand what it is to be totally committed...once you have cross this tipping point, there is no looking back as it draws you forward like a magnet.

 

As for discipline, just put it out of your mind and get on with the journey of becoming a Trader

 

 

[/b]

 

John... A+ post man. To this day, I can't honestly say much about "discipline" in my trading other than my own personal "discipline" comes in the form of always listening very carefully to my feelings, my mental state, my stress level, as I interact with the market. And, whatever I feel like doing (which sometimes is not trade at all, and others is wait for a single setup, and others, it's making 50 trades in a day)... my discipline comes in listening to what my subconcious is telling me, and not trying to trade in some other way or fashion or time frame unless that inner voice changes.

 

I'm a horrible example of a disciplined trader. I have no hard rules on money management anymore, no hard rules on trading with or against trends. I scale in, and out, I usually trade around my positions very often. I watch monthly charts and 1 minute charts. Today, i'm currently in 8 different currency pairs, many are correlated, (although I do my my max loss should evertyhing stop out will be less than 2.5%)...

 

sometimes I hold trades for minutes, othertimes, days, even weeks. I have absolutely no limits on anything anymore.... except... I have only 2 rules:

 

Rule 1: Trade what I want, when I want, how I want, as I want, and only if I want. If I don't, then don't.

 

Rule 2: Don't blow up. Any double digit drawdown in a day is "blowing up". If at any time i'm trading I become uncomfortable with my open positions, or risk amount, or realized losses for the day/week/etc... then I close whatever I have to in order to smile and feel happy, and then I quit trading for the rest of that day. After this, I refer back to rule 1.

 

 

That's it man. These are my two rules. I know all to well the points you make in your post, because it wasn't until this last few months that I've decided to throw away all my rules, my trading plan, everything... to focus on 2 most basic, most important things: trade only when it feels right, feels good.... and if losses or potential losses make trading feel bad, then close positions down until the bad feeling goes away, and never let it get over 10% in a day.

 

So what about the rest??? At this point, it feels i've forgotten more viable forms of market analysis than most would be traders will ever know. I've watched charts full time for 4 years, part time for a decade. I've traded every major asset class in existence.

 

At this point, I don't need a dictionary to decode the words... I just know how the book reads, and know what the story is telling me. Then, If I feel up to it, I trade it. If I start to get stressed because it isn't working out for me, I reduce my position.

 

I don't have any rules really, or any setup type, or any discipline, or even any patience. I just make decisions based on my intuition, experience, and my emotions.

 

And i've never felt so good about my develooping of my trading career as I have this last few months of this year.

 

Good post. Sorry for the ramble. Just felt compelled.

 

FTX

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good morning,

 

I would like to push on with a few more thoughts concerning discipline and it's smothering effects on emotions.

 

It seems well documented now that discipline and it's close traveling companion 'willpower' are not the answer to losing weight or stopping smoking, or most probably they are not the answer to correcting any of our habits that we think are in need of correction .... they very simply do not address the underlying root cause(s) of the problem.

 

I am stretching my memory at the moment, but some time ago, I was told what happened with the Navy Seals .

The number of Soldiers completing the program was a small proportion of the intake, in fact only 1 in four completed the course.

This was a perplexing problem since the selection program was good and the intakes consisted of men who were well above the norm in all respects.... intelligence, fitness, application, dexterity, they were all highly talented, highly disciplined men.

And so the problem must be with the training program itself.

It is not hard for us to understand that the program was underpinned by willpower/ discipline which demands that each man individually bears an enormous emotional load until either the program is completed or the man fails .... do or die.

The problem with bearing these individual stresses is that when discipline/willpower gives way, it collapses completely leaving nothing other than an empty shell.

The program was modified as a result of these findings, and I imagine that the changes were not made lightly, since the 'old school of thinking' worshiped the 'do or die' attitude.

Emotions were acknowledged and men were taught to break down seemingly herculean tasks in manageable stages and work and talk/discuss as a team ..... they are no less the men than they were, in fact they are better ... the pass rate of the course went from 1 in four to 3 out of 4.

 

Steve 46 .... your training program as briefly described, is built along the same lines ... you are using the combined power of the group to create success for the individuals.

If you don't mind me saying so, it is not discipline that is important to you, but rather it is expectation. in other words, you expect your Students to hold expectations about themselves and the others in the group ... this comes from a deeper level than discipline IMO.

I think that your Students are lucky to have you.

 

Neg ... I agree that most people believe that finding a brilliant entry system is the most important factor in trading.

I say this from experience, because it was not until I turned the damn charting software off and started to think about what I was trying to do and how I could go about doing it, that I was able to put together a program for myself ... in some ways it has turned out to be easier than I thought in the areas that I thought about.

It has been the areas that were under my radar that caused the challenges.

 

4EverMaAT ... I agree with you about rolling back your limitations .... I think that is a huge part of life and a very satisfying one.

 

ForexTraderX I try to encourage participation from from subconscious at all times ... it starts as a scary exercise in faith I know, but before long it becomes second nature .... the problem is that we are not taught the things we really need to know when we were young and so at some stage it becomes very desirable to relearn our approach to ourselves and therefore to life and roll back our limitations.

 

As you may have gathered, I don't think much of the discipline/willpower approach to life ... it is suffocating when it gets out of hand ..and it will.

 

Just as it is not recommended to play a contact sport on frightened tense muscles (you will suffer injuries) the same can be applied to life and the approach we take to it.

When we relax back in a truly focused manner into a task like trading and when we allow our emotions to line up (rather than ignore them and have them pulling against each other) then there is no telling just what we can achieve.

 

Retail Trading has a horrible success rate ... not even 1% remain active after one year so I am told.... and yet I would venture to suggest that the typical Newbie is well above average IQ.... so what is the problem .. why the incredible failure rate?

 

Three things have never changed ... Trading, Taxes and Prostitution

Leaving two of them aside for a rainy day, Trading has seen the formation of Exchanges, the creation of derivatives, the application of computers ... in fact it is fair to say that some of the finest minds in the World are devoted to trading.

 

But really, nothing has changed in Trading.... 'buy into a rising market, sell into a falling market' ... how can we possibly screw this up?

Well, we can and we do screw up to such an extent that less than 1% survive the learning curve.

 

Just as the Admirals and senior ranks of the Seals knew they had a problem, then so should we acknowledge the same.

The sad plain fact is that what we think we know is just plain wrong and we need to search out what is correct for us and then have the gonads to let go of the past and relax back into the new.

Even if Retail Trading doubled it's success rate, that would leave a failure rate exceeding 98% after one year of trading.

 

If the World actually needed Retail Traders for it's continuance, it would starve to death with this failure rate.

 

Unlike Business which builds up a critical mass of goodwill based upon excellence of design, manufacturing, value, service etc. we do not.

Each day is a brand new adventure for us and the success of today balances totally upon our shoulders in the same manner as Pro Sports, and Performing Arts.

 

These two groups have embraced psychology in order to enhance performance because they have seen the difference it's contribution makes.

I daren't even mention the Martial Arts and their believes in the completeness of the individual.

 

Just a few thoughts for a Monday morning.

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Discipline is what keeps your mind ordered and focused when under stress. Under these conditions other attributes of internal team of the mind can be organized and directed. Patience, courage, impartiality, and intuition can, when well directed from a disciplined mind, gel into an emotional cocktail that creates the kind of mind that trades well. Passion for trading and a vision of what you could be as a trader are also important.

Rande Howell

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Discipline is what keeps your mind ordered and focused when under stress. Under these conditions other attributes of internal team of the mind can be organized and directed. Patience, courage, impartiality, and intuition can, when well directed from a disciplined mind, gel into an emotional cocktail that creates the kind of mind that trades well. Passion for trading and a vision of what you could be as a trader are also important.

Rande Howell

 

 

gm Rande,

 

Staying within the boundaries of trading ..... are you saying (in your professional capacity) that the mind under stress differs intentionally from periods when it is not under stress and that discipline is a conscious action to impose order at these times.

 

I agree with your 'internal team' as you know, although my mind paints a different picture, most probably resulting from a somewhat different learning process to yours.

But to me, the whole exercise is have the mind performing under trading stress as it does when the pressure is off ... I do not see adding a layer of management (discipline) as a solution.

Nobody said it is easy to achieve unless of course you relax back into it.

 

there is an old saying

"It is just one more river to cross and having finally crossed it you look back and see that there never was a river"

 

cheers

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Is Commitment Enough to Succeed?

 

This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very committed at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak.

 

My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with commitment. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely committed who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the commitment. How important do you consider each factor?

… in this thread, I still get the feeling diff posters are using the ‘d’ word in different ways (and carrying on as if we aren’t) . It’s Negotiator’s thread, so ideally he would differentiate and clarify just a little bit … so re:

 

Interesting isn't it? Anyway, I was referring more to discipline as categorised by 'application'.

 

What’s interesting?

And application of what? When?

And for how long?

(And when not? And how long would be too long? etc.)

 

(dang… and I thought I was vague ;) )

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As relates to trading, discipline is simply the ability to stick with a plan of action in the face of uncertainty...."internally" it is the ability to maintain a rational mindset, to maintain control of emotional response....

 

Its not that difficult...you learn to control your physical response first, by learning to breath and modulate your pulse....once you have that skill, you focus on managing the effect of damaging or unproductive thoughts and as you become more skilled, and you develop track record of managing your responses, you become "desensitized" to those unproductive responses....you see the same world around you but you "decide" what your response will be to those events....you are (finally) in control.....

 

I realize you folks like to beat a subject to death....and then kick it to death once or twice just to make sure....lol

 

But thats about it..

 

And frankly when I see people (I won't name names) having to write reams of paragraphs on how its done, I become suspicious (do they really know what they are talking about)....

 

The direct route to this goal requires that you INTERNALIZE what is written above and then observe someone who knows how to do it....

 

Good luck folks...

Edited by steve46

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Wow, JohnW . Excellent! Deep insights.

 

I’ve always kept it too brief… just said

“If you have to apply discipline more than once or twice a month in your trading, then something is off with the match between you and your methods”.

Now when someone asks me wtf I’m talking about, I will just refer them to your posts in this thread. Thanks.

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goodoboy, re

 

But I come to conclusion its all discipline............... ...............

 

The success that a trader achieves in the markets is directly correlated to one’s trading discipline or lack thereof. Trading discipline is 90 percent of the game. The formula is very simple: Trade with discipline and you will succeed; trade without discipline and you will fail.

 

Since you have "come to [the] conclusion its all discipline" please clarify how you are using the 'd' word...

trading discipline - applied to what specifically

When is it applied?

And for how long?

thx

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johnw

The ideal would be that the trader's mind is the same for sim trading and live trading. To get to that place is a journey that requires a good bit of training and self awareness. I opt for training traders on a stress inoculation schedule that allows the trader to acclimate to higher levels of risk and uncertainty as they are ready for it. This way they train themselves to work in a particular environment before they step up to the next level. In baseball, the player first plays in the minors before getting to the big show. They learn how to work at each level. After the mind is trained, it wouldn't make a difference.

 

Rande

 

gm Rande,

 

Staying within the boundaries of trading ..... are you saying (in your professional capacity) that the mind under stress differs intentionally from periods when it is not under stress and that discipline is a conscious action to impose order at these times.

 

I agree with your 'internal team' as you know, although my mind paints a different picture, most probably resulting from a somewhat different learning process to yours.

But to me, the whole exercise is have the mind performing under trading stress as it does when the pressure is off ... I do not see adding a layer of management (discipline) as a solution.

Nobody said it is easy to achieve unless of course you relax back into it.

 

there is an old saying

"It is just one more river to cross and having finally crossed it you look back and see that there never was a river"

 

cheers

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To succeed in anything you desire in life requires one word.........persistence.

...

 

Is Persistence Enough to Succeed?

 

This is probably a question which is more broadly applicable than to just trading and it would probably be helpful to hear from those well versed in current (not always necessarily correct though) views in the field of psychology. Is it enough to be just very persistent at something in order to become successful at it whilst not having bucket loads of natural ability and possibly more importantly, the passion for it? I would note that by success I mean replicable positive results, not necessarily be at the very top of the tree so to speak.

 

My feeling is it depends. Probably a great deal on the type of guidance the individual receives. I think that natural ability is only fulfilled with persistence. Clearly therefore, there will be some individuals with very little need for external influence to experience some degree of success. Yet there will be some who are extremely persistent who lack the flair and intuition (or whatever you want to call it but please, that's a different thread!) to know what they should be doing and there are those who have the flair and so on but not the persistence. How important do you consider each factor?

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