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MDS37RB

Great on Paper - Not with Real Money

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Loads of people seem to knock sim trading, but I think it is essential to get everything down as much as possible before going live. Maybe its a mindset thing, but when trading sim in the past I treated it as a live account 100%. If you have thoughts during a bad trade of "I can just reset" or "oh well, a bad trade, never mind" then you are not trading sim properly. sim trading is not just about execution, it should be psychological training as well.

 

Firstly you say that you are ok in sim. Do you mean that your are in profit? that's not entirely relevant. Have you analyzed your performance correctly. Are you are in profit because you've had a few big winners? how many trades have you had? what's your average loss / winner? biggest winner vs biggest loser? risk reward ratio? win rate? what's your sharpe ratio? mae? mfe? etc. Ultimately what is your expectancy number. You must know your number.

 

If you know the answers for all of these. That you know your set ups inside out. That there is no ambiguity when taking a trade. That you review your journal and create actionable items for your strengths and weaknesses. That you are clear of purpose and confident in ability, then perhaps it's a psychological hurdle.

 

You can try and emulate pressure of a live account in sim. I assume you journal. Make your sim trades public. Even now as a full time live trader I tweet what I'm doing throughout my trading session and I use a twitter hash tag to collate all my entries for the day, which I use to journal. You don't have to use twitter, create a thread on a forum and post all your thoughts, trades etc.

You can also try and video your trades using something like camtasia. watch them back during post-analysis. You will get many "What was I thinking?!" moments. In early stages this is normal as live trading and hindsight are out of sync due to lack of intuition. Experience helps to make you "see" clearer in real time.

Basically you need to find any method that will make you feel accountable, sim or not.

 

I'm not sure 8 months is enough time to become an intuitive trader, which is absolutely necessary to become consistently profitable. Similar to learning how to drive. In the beginning you really have to concentrate to be in control of the steering wheel, indicators, gears, brakes...and then after a few years you can drive somewhere and when you get there you don't really remember the act of driving. You were on auto-pilot. Becoming an intuitive trader is only achieved by putting the hours in, recognizing and correcting your mistakes, enhancing your strengths, increasing humility and reducing ego. The less anxiety you feel, the closer you are to the end goal.

 

Once I went live that was it. I'm not sure I could go ever go back to sim. However I would think that if I ever had to, I would revisit sim with a live trading mindset. No messing around. Not sure if there are any traders on here who have done just that. If so, maybe they could offer on a perspective of how they treated sim first time around, before live trading and then how they viewed sim after trading live.

 

Not sure if what I have offered helps you at all, but good luck!

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You have GOT to be kidding right? Ever get into a CL trade and find yourself on the wrong side of a spike against you 50 - 100 ticks? Happens often in CL - NEVER in ES.

 

Or SILVER the most lethal ball buster of them all.

 

Maybe you got them reversed?

 

Sorry, I've been trading CL for over 10 years and I've never experienced those 50 to 100 ticks spikes those of you that trade time based charts experience. I strictly use volume based charting.

 

That being said, in the last 12 years I've seen spikes in the ES as well, on time based charts, though not the range that the CL generates. Time based charts are a problem on there own due to news and other events creating unmanageable volume spikes in the market.

 

I've attached a couple charts for comparison. The first is a 5 minute chart that shows how a Crude report creates a nasty spike after its release. You can also see on the 5 minute chart that open to close there was no discernible difference in price. The second chart is the same day but is show using a constant volume based chart. No spikes just a steady smooth flow of readable momentum. Same range but a more safe and readable area for extracting profit.

5aa711d0da663_MarchCrude02-29-125MinuteChart.thumb.png.c03cccce2de309bfb07454bc1f07eb57.png

5aa711d0e2121_CLJ2987022912.thumb.png.ebf01391b4d24e140718b4334db6af73.png

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Sorry, I've been trading CL for over 10 years and I've never experienced those 50 to 100 ticks spikes those of you that trade time based charts experience....

 

Don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying that CL is not a great tradable instrument, But to suggest that it is "safer" than the emini's is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

 

I use a 4-6 tick stop successfully ES risking $50 - $75 per contract. In CL .. basically anybody who trade sit will agree that you need a min 10 and most likely 15 min tick stop risking $150 per contract.

 

If it were safer it would carry a lot smaller margin - but the margin is at least DOUBLE the ES. I guess the orginal poster I was replying to figures that the CME doesn't know how to set margin - or why?

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Don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying that CL is not a great tradable instrument, But to suggest that it is "safer" than the emini's is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

 

I use a 4-6 tick stop successfully ES risking $50 - $75 per contract. In CL .. basically anybody who trade sit will agree that you need a min 10 and most likely 15 min tick stop risking $150 per contract.

 

If it were safer it would carry a lot smaller margin - but the margin is at least DOUBLE the ES. I guess the orginal poster I was replying to figures that the CME doesn't know how to set margin - or why?

 

In my environment, volume based charting, CL provides us a better win rate, less draw down, larger daily range, tighter stop placement (3 to 5 ticks) and more profit per trade than any of the Indices. To us, these equate to a safer trading environment.

 

I can see if you are trading the ES using time charts and the parameters you listed, then that is best for you but not everyone.

 

There are plenty of markets to trade and all kinds of systems and methods. This is what makes this such a great business.

 

Me, a data scientist, researcher and trader with going on 20 years of precise experience of charting and earning a living in this environment (with no experience in chemical engineering) telling JM Eagle how to improve their manufacturing of plastic pipes . . . now that is ludicrous. ;-)

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You have GOT to be kidding right? Ever get into a CL trade and find yourself on the wrong side of a spike against you 50 - 100 ticks? Happens often in CL - NEVER in ES.

 

Or SILVER the most lethal ball buster of them all.

 

Maybe you got them reversed?

 

Oil spikes, and there is slippage, but I have never experienced more than 8-10 ticks even during the volatile days of the arab spring (good times).

 

Silver got me good for about 15 ticks and that was the last time I traded it. I don't know if there are bigger in silver. F silver.

 

The spikes you see do have bids and offers occurring so you won't find yourself without a bid or offer in 50 to 100 ticks of either. Is that what you mean?

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Great on Paper - Not with Real Money

 

2 Ways to cure it:

- make your trading more mechanic so that it's not up to your feelings how much to trade and when to exit but it's up to your method, developed and backtested and which you trust.

- as a (long time ago) great trader suggested, a good idea is to NEVER trade virtual money, it's so different than real money that it actually has no value. I don't completely agree but if you have some extra money to lose it can be tried.

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Great on Paper - Not with Real Money

 

2 Ways to cure it:

- make your trading more mechanic so that it's not up to your feelings how much to trade and when to exit but it's up to your method, developed and backtested and which you trust.

- as a (long time ago) great trader suggested, a good idea is to NEVER trade virtual money, it's so different than real money that it actually has no value. I don't completely agree but if you have some extra money to lose it can be tried.

 

Ah, the long time ago great trader again. Another long time ago great trader said that anybody who puts down real money without having the least idea whether or not his strategy -- if any -- holds water could save himself a lot of time by putting all his money into a big pile and setting it on fire.

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If you’re really going to embody - > “Be more prepared than the challenges you will face” then sim has EXTREMELY limited benefits.

Get real… BEFORE the markets force you to get real...

 

For all but a few, sim = how to train yourself to be a non survivor.

 

Before you have developed genuine resilience and toughness, sim is ‘undertraining’.

After you have developed some resilience and toughness, then sim has a viable, but still limited, function.

 

jmo... not expecting to change the minds of the 80% pack that disagrees ... but maybe help one trader move out of the pack... and get real

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More Get Real (which 78.6% will find a way to disagree with...)

 

... as a (long time ago) great trader suggested, a good idea is to NEVER trade virtual money, it's so different than real money that it actually has no value. .

 

re: that “(long time ago) great trader”

With broad strokes - instead of lingering with you to discuss the pro’s and con’s of real vs sim, I’d bet that “(long time ago) great trader” was quickly getting ready to steer the conversation context back to proper capitalization and sizing when developing (and testing) a method or strategy …

Said another way, sim will never come close to the compensation for undercapitalization that the big pack of losers come in wishing it would be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, you would probably be better off not putting all your money into a big pile and setting it on fire.

And just as true - for all but a few - if you have a need to ‘ease yourself in’ to this game via pretend, you would probably be better off not trying out at all…

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

Re: developing viable” strategies” .

Build it dry, then get it wet

Yes ... It can be done, but it’s best not to try to build a boat while already going down the river …

Yes... It can be done, but it’s also best not to develop “the least idea” of a strategy that “holds water (in or out)” (and evolve beyond basic prototypes) from ‘in(side)' live stream charts.

 

Once designed and prototyped, then find out if what you have developed and built 'floats' (or not) in the real world, not in a simulator.

And, note, most subsequent and significant improvements on your designs will unfold from experiences in ‘real water’ not from fkn algorquations or sim tunnels/chambers/modules. See How a Boat-Plane Hybrid Shattered the Sound Barrier of Sailing | Autopia | Wired.com for a ‘physics’ example. (and btw, don’t get sidetracked in ‘the realm of form’ here … yes...trading is not physics, yada yada – ie what we’re talking about here is the manifestation of ideas.)

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I didn't post very often in the past few months (in fact I didn't post at all eheheheh).

Btw, just my two cents: go mechanical, 100% mechanical, and possibly stay out of reach of your keyboard. If you feel tempted of changing every parameter you just included in your strategy, let the machine do all the work and stay away.

(of course this will expose you to many other risks, like bad executions, software/power failure and so on... but this is another story).

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OP - you can read over and over, many posters telling you to have a rules based system. It IS REQUIRED. You have trading rules that are objective, possibly programmable, then you can verify or disprove that your approach is mathematically profitable. Once you know your Win Rate and Reward to Risk numbers over 100 trades (generally, more is better, dep. on your system random periods tested over time is better) - you can run Monte Carlos to see that you have a good chance of making money with those numbers or not..

 

That part is 'having an edge'

 

You can STILL have the problems you described even when you have an edge! Its in your head ---- THE ONE THING UNMENTIONED THUS FAR IS REVIEW ---

Reviewing your actual trades and comparing this with your rules can reveal, especially when starting out or returning after a break, that you may have thought you were following your system when in fact your behavior was ... something else. Its crazy and illuminating - we can know what to do and do something else (and feel like we were doing the thing we were supposed to)... or something like that. Anyway - Review your trades, make sure they line up with your rules based approach. Get a rules based approach if you don't have one.

Peace

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OP - you can read over and over, many posters telling you to have a rules based system. It IS REQUIRED. You have trading rules that are objective, possibly programmable, then you can verify or disprove that your approach is mathematically profitable. Once you know your Win Rate and Reward to Risk numbers over 100 trades (generally, more is better, dep. on your system random periods tested over time is better) - you can run Monte Carlos to see that you have a good chance of making money with those numbers or not..

 

That part is 'having an edge'

 

You can STILL have the problems you described even when you have an edge! Its in your head ---- THE ONE THING UNMENTIONED THUS FAR IS REVIEW ---

Reviewing your actual trades and comparing this with your rules can reveal, especially when starting out or returning after a break, that you may have thought you were following your system when in fact your behavior was ... something else. Its crazy and illuminating - we can know what to do and do something else (and feel like we were doing the thing we were supposed to)... or something like that. Anyway - Review your trades, make sure they line up with your rules based approach. Get a rules based approach if you don't have one.

Peace

 

Since the OP has made only one post, and that was six months ago, we are all most likely just talking to ourselves. But his central problem is contained in this sentence: " I learned a price action method for day trading the e-minis a few weeks ago." If one buys or borrows or steals somebody else's system, he will either quickly or eventually have problems. If he doesn't develop the system (or method or whatever) himself, he won't completely trust it. If he doesn't trust it, he will second-guess it, he won't take the signals, he will wander off into the weeds and into blind alleys. Typically he will complain that the system "doesn't work". And then he'll move on to another system that he had no part in developing. And another. And another.

 

How does one develop his own system? The Trading Journal (more).

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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