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Rande Howell

The Mind You Brought to Trading is Not the MInd That Brings Success in Trading

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... It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets....

 

Being able to "see" the market will not put 1$ in someones account....It is the ability to "act" that causes extraction.

 

Trade Well...

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because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions.

 

cross talk (as in double talk not as in angry) maybe Rande but ---- this is not what I try and do at all.

 

While people talk of the mood of the market, and give it emotional context of what a few people are thinking), if I am short term trading I could not care less about trying to understand or read anyone else's emotions (the market as a whole for me has no emotions).

For me others fear and greed have nothing to do with it. I want what i consider to be good entry levels, and then I want the market to go my way - if anything the detachment is to NOT think about what anyone else is thinking but to actually just see what is happening in the realm of possibilities and probabilites of movement.

 

If anything it is the thinking about others that causes problems - questions such as "what if the market turns from here, what if others rush for the door, how do i pay the bills if I dont take this profit, what will the boys down the pub say when i tell them i had a ten bagger today" etc...

when I am trading at my best - the simplest thing to answer when asked what do you think is - I dunno, the market looks likes its still going up, down, sideways and then to act on that, based on the thinking that is done either before the market or in your strategy and tactics development.....not in the application of them. (One reason I would still like to automate more)

 

simplistic maybe but thats my POV and it may differ from others.(does that make me a trading sociopath??? :))

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SpearPointTrader

 

I'm with SUIYA on this one regarding "detachment from reality". In the practice of mindfulness, there is a stepping back and observing from a dispassionate perspective. That may represent a very different way of seeing the world -- kinda like your detachment. For most traders this sense of impartiality has to be learned, so it is a deviation from the historical way they have interacted with the world.

 

If you read this forum, really read what SUIYA, MM, and GOSU say about this. Take their comments in the context of trading, rather than other domains of action. It is their (learned or inherent, I don't know) detachment or dispassion that allows them to "see" the market in such a way that they are able to extract from the markets. At least, this is my take on it. I don't know for a fact that they are successful traders -- but I believe so based on their presentation.

 

In my work I am striving to teach traders how to turn or and turn off this quality. Turn on this perspective when trading because it is necessary to attune to the emotionality of the markets and take advantage of the emotion traders are bringing to the dance. In dispassion, detachment, or impartiality is becomes much more possible to "see" or sense others fear and/or greed based on market conditions. This is not a state of mind that will bring success in other relationships in other domains though. It's a necessary element in trading mind though.

 

Rande Howell

gm Rande,

 

I don't disagree with "detachment from reality" but I wonder if it is the answer or just a stepping stone to a better frame of mind and way of life..

 

As you say Rande, 'detachment' needs to be applied very selectively otherwise the outcome can be very unpredictable.

 

Traders are always looking for balance/ imbalance ... it is balance in the market that give us direction [trends as some people call them] and it is imbalance that gives us reversals.

 

Since markets are the collective results of thousands / millions of human minds,emotions and feelings, it is probably fair to surmise that we are trading ourselves ... because, if we do not trade ourselves then who are we trading.

 

And so if we are seeking positions of balance/ imbalance within the markets, our best strategy would be to come from a position of balance within us.

This is quite different to 'detachment' .. well to me it is.. but IMO we need to detach first in order to seek balance... I don't mean that one follows the other, I mean that detachment enables the pursuit of balance.

As with everything worth having, the more we pursue it, the more we push it away and so we come back to that tricky skill of relaxing back into our own progress.

 

Right now, our World is in a dangerous state of imbalance and no amount of detachment is going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again ... quite the reverse in fact.

We are living somewhere between a Greek tragedy and a soap opera and despite all the lies and the rhetoric, we still have yet to reach the turning point ... let alone the path to a better life... yes, we can forget 'recovery' this is a brave new world we are forging for ourselves.

 

IMO, the People who will enjoy life and prosper the most are those who appreciate the value of balance and it would be nice to think that the people of this Forum would be apart of this new prosperity...

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Extraction wtf.

 

No, everyone is now a miner (... almost - a few still are dentists… )

we are digging in the emotional darkness and the minds that entered the mines are not the minds that extract from the mines ;)

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Btw,according to Capital Spread CEO 80% clients are losers.A bit better than the often quoted 90-95%

This figure could be further reduced if you listen to the reasons he gave recently for the losing clients being losers.

1- Overtrading.

2- Using too much leverage

3 -Allowing large losses to build and taking small profits too quickly

4- Trading in several markets they don't really understand instead of concentrating on one or two

Pretty much the usual cliche's that most beginners insist on ignoring.

 

you mean????.... noooo!!!

tell me you are kidding.........

all those things they say and then you mean we do them in reality.......

(4 is ok if you have enough experience)

 

my take - 1 and 2 occur, then 3 and 4 occur (maybe in reverse order)

 

(today - as I get back into it after a hiatus and I am trying to get some rhythm back (but it is still no excuse) I

was definitively guilty of 1, not of 2, not of 3, not of 4....and low and behold in a crappy EURUSD since 2pm I now have a short position of 400,000 EUR

 

(dont ask why a short for reasons, how or where....I am actually not that bearish and dont have a view - its just the position I have ended up with)

 

that worst case might cost me $125 for the day.......let it ride......who cares what you think (;) ;) ;) I just want to see it go down, otherwise I cut it.

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Mind set is the main difference between success, or failure in this business. Facing down the barrel of a gun, and calmly telling the guy holding he still owes you money and he'd better pay up or else, requires a very unique mindset.

 

* * *

 

Are you serious? LOL...there's nothing unique about that mindset. It's called stupidity.

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As usual, when your argument fails the test of common sense and logic, an answer like yours above is the sort I would expect.

 

One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

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One of the draws of this site is the unscripted comedy improv that some of you generate on a daily basis.

 

First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Frankly the older I get the less patient I am with naivete, but in this case I am going to go "with it" a while longer assuming that you aren't stupid but perhaps developmentally delayed...

 

"Logic" works up to a point, but at some point, those of us who do this for a living figure out that what always works is to get inside the heads of those who can move markets, anticipate what they are going to do correctly and get in front of that decision making process. During the time that I worked an overnight desk trading the Euro and Bond, this is how I made a living....my boss would characterize this process as "thinking a couple of steps ahead of the crowd"...

 

Now it doesn't work for everyone....not everyone can do it....it may not fit YOUR style and you may well think that those of us who do it are "crazy" (as you put it), but that doesn't invalidate the process at all....and the fact that the village idiots step and congratulate you at the end of your comment would make me suspicious that I was missing the point...

 

Good luck in the markets

Steve

 

I was wrong to doubt you steve; how foolish of this naive, village idiot to question the "professional" who posts the best hindsight charts on the forum. Keep them coming! If you ever grow a pair and decide to post even one live trade chart per, say, 10 hindsight ones, let me know and I'll join you in a thread for that very purpose. Until then, the BS-o-meter is off the charts for you, "professional."

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

 

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

Duh!!!!!

 

Ah well, back to work.

 

Best to everyone

Steve

Edited by steve46

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

I'll give it another shot....you suggest that trading based on what a person says is "crazy"...but I just typed a few carefully chosen words and zoom...you could not keep from posting your reply..

Is this too difficult to get?....I trade events based on the crowd's emotional response to WORDS

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

Duh!!!!!

Ah well, back to work.

Best to everyone

Steve

 

gm Steve,

 

What you are demonstrating is one of life's great advantages and that is to put yourself in the other guy's head.

It is not easily done and is beyond the scope of most people because they simply cannot let go of their own thoughts and so they wind up with a mish-mash of ideas... in fact they drop themselves into an even deeper mess.

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usually there is only one village idiot - they provide the comedy fodder for the others, and the best part of it is that the village idiot is usually the one with blinkers on and thinks that everyone else but them is the fool.

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Appreciate the continued entertainment princess.

 

Princess? Your ego must be taking quite a blow to use such personal insults, that are in no way related to the conversation at hand.

 

If I can make you respond, why does it seem unreasonable that others do the same when they hear certain words from Mr. Bernanke?

 

 

I have no doubt that some people bought because of what Bernanke said. But there are many reason why people can buy: price touches a moving average, time elapses without XYZ happening, a support level holds, etc. I still do not think Bernanke said anything that the market had not already taken into consideration, which is the main reason why someone would buy. Sure, people can buy if they like what someone says, but the rest of the market has already heard "old news" and Bernanke did not really say anything new that the market had not already priced in. Just my opinion of course. My point was that one might as well say, "the market hit the 5 minute 20EMA, and traders bought because of that." I think that's kind of ludicrous, but to each his own. I only said this:

 

You are presuming that because the market moved when he said something, that his comment was the cause, or impetus which caused traders to move the market. Perhaps it was, but one does not imply the other.

 

Good luck steve, and the invitation still stands for you to open a thread, or post in an existing one, an actual trade you take, when you take it. I think maybe once I've ever seen you post a chart of a trade that did not work for you, compared with at least a hundred or so charts of trades that you took several hours before that worked to perfection. A post of a chart showing a trade you take, in real time, would be refreshing, or even a chart showing a losing trade and how something didn't work would be helpful. But you have too much to lose to do that I'm afraid, as you have built yourself up too much, so you probably won't. But for someone who has never posted a chart of a losing trade and only posts winners, it's quite suspicious that you won't simply take that screen capture when you take the trade, instead of waiting an hour or two and then showing how obvious it was that it was going to work.

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Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

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Josh

 

You got driven around like a stolen chevy...too bad champ....but thats how the world works and those of us who have figured it out make a living trading off the information, while you whine and challenge impotently......you see you don't mean that much to me.....you can't get in my head....because I already know where I stand with the people who DO mean something to me.

 

Get over it and join the rest of the adults (or not). Its up to you

 

Back to work (Good luck everyone)

 

Steve

 

Let's try a new approach steve -- how about, we give each other another chance; I'll forget and forgive your rude comments to me, and you forget and forgive my rude comments to you? Let's approach this like men, human beings, actually try to get along despite differences in our personalities? Kind of like starting over. How does that sound?

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Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

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Not sure what happened to the thread, but it went from "Jack/Jill (whomever) not knowing how to trade and ideas on how to help him/her" to a Friday UFC match between Steve and Josh...

 

I hope the thread can get back on track?

 

CYP

 

Sorry CYP, I will take the blame for that as I was the one who initially replied to him. I won't post anymore on this thread and sorry to Rande for derailing it.

 

Consider it done Josh

 

Sounds good steve, thanks.

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In my opinion the comments all relate to the concept of taking the "blinders" off

 

I am a bottom line kind of person...for me that bottom line is simple

 

Most people swim in a sea of emotions they don't understand...if you get some visibility as to how that works, you have an potential advantage in any activity you engage in....not just trading.

 

Personally the idea of archetypes doesn't appeal to me...I prefer a direct path to my goal....

 

Back to work

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I see, so to clarify for those who may not speak English...what I am saying is that ALL the comments relate either directly or indirectly to the subject of the thread...YOU sir or madam may not understand that...

Edited by steve46

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Consider it done but ......

 

us fkn btchz go all adhomino…

... the mind you brought to posting is not the mind that...:roll eyes:

 

 

 

btw…when it comes to understanding certain ___cepts (like “archetypes”), words on a page cannot convey the more in-depth nuance and meanings. Sustained work with them can actually be a more direct path than is a “direct "bottom line" path” … just sayin’… :):2c:

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First congratulations....you finally figured out that the reason for my trade isn't about logic....its about the emotional reaction that the crowd exhibits when Mr. Bernanke says something that they A. agree with, B. disagree with, or C. are surprised to hear.

 

Steve

 

Your trade was not about logic, but it does lead you to an A or B or C conclusion. As a cynical onlooker, I would suggest that there are a lot more actions and reactions that might occur from a Bernanke comment than your non-logical A or B or C reactions, but at the same time I am not suggesting that you have cataloged them all in your short response. However, how do you know which reaction it is going to be to take advantage of your ability to be a few steps ahead of the crowd?

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    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
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