Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

TheNegotiator

Risk On, Risk Off is Bull

Do phrases used by market commentators annoy you?  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. Do phrases used by market commentators annoy you?

    • Yes, they annoy the hell out of me!
      13
    • No, I like them as they are good keywords to look out for.
      0
    • I don't really care.
      5


Recommended Posts

I'd like to see what others think about the phrase which has been used more and more recently. Anyone with even a slight interest in the markets has probably heard this phrase. "Today is risk on as stocks soar" or "We're very clearly risk off as flight to quality continues". What the hell does it really mean though? Right now markets right now are highly sensitized to risk due to ongoing systematic problems throughout the world. Some specific stocks and assets are seen as more defensive than others and so when risk is off, these stocks should relatively speaking outperform more speculative investments.

 

So what is annoying me more than anything is that some guys have started using it as a replacement phrase for "stocks are up" or "stocks are down". For example, the stock indices may have moved higher yet overall it's not based on riskier stocks, yet someone might say "it's risk on today". Well that's pretty misleading imo. Anyway, does anyone else have any thoughts on that or any other phrases they'd like to complain about??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What the hell does it really mean though?

Excellent question!

Didn’t it used to be almost a purely foreign exchange concept? Generally Risk on = higher yield currencies. Risk off = lower yield currencies. Hopefully someone has a better explanation than that. Most forum talk will not get specific at all.

 

Seems to me, it’s assimilation into routine ‘wall street’ lexicon is only a recent happening. … months old? “Switching”, into more or less “beta” ,etc were the stock trading world’s words for it. But I may be wrong… the only time I see CNBC is inside the bank when doing a bankwire or something and I read no WSJ, etc. The sources that pre-inform that they are going ‘risk on’ or ‘risk off’ continue to have some value. The sources reporting post flow that today is ‘risk on’ or ‘risk off’ are useless.

 

Maybe the uptick in the whole planetary financial system’s going singular / correlated has something to do with the phrase catching on?

 

Will have to figure out how to anwer your poll. I don't really care and sometimes (like if I'm exposed to it more than about 5 minutes) the 'phrasing' of bs does annoy the heck out of me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe the uptick in the whole planetary financial system’s going singular / correlated has something to do with the phrase catching on?

.

 

Could be. But also I find that due to the vastness and non-regulated nature of the internet as a news/idea delivery method, you have to take into account the 'Chinese whisper' effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they annoy the heck out of me....but ultimately like Zdo...i dont care.

You have to remember that most of this is perpetuated by news people who are just parroting the brokers, who have nothing better to do.

Remember what a risk free asset was - it was a government backed security.....now these are riskier than corporate bonds!!

 

Other jargon that drives me nuts as its miss/over used....

"bargain hunters",

when a market pulls back --"profit taking in the market today"

and the continual - this is the biggest up day in X weeks, X days, whatever.....usually nothing significant.

and the best is....

"long term" :haha:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

way back when - before the talking heads co-opted it and it became Bull -

what did it really mean in the banks when the desks got the edict

risk on

or

risk off

???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that those terms are complete bullshit.

 

The way the talking heads use the term "risk on" is when stocks are going up therefore meaning traders are buying the market. This infers that going long the market is risky and going short the market (i.e., risk off) is getting out to risk assets. I think if the talking heads thought about the message that they are conveying for just a second they would stop using the term because it seems as though that is the exact opposite message that they want to convey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify. I am not inferring that there is no risk in going long or short. There is certainly risk in going long or short. I am simply making the observation that the talking heads tend to be cheerleaders for the market and using the term "risk on" and "risk off" seems to be at odds with the cheerleading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My peeve is when I go to marketwatch or some other BS site, and there was news 15 minutes ago , and it just now gets posted... like, I could have created a freaking web site and announced the headline in less time than it took for you to just post it.

 

My REAL peeve though, is how they try to attribute some fundamental reason to ever single move they report. "Dow moves higher on euro debt concerns" and yada yada. Sometimes it's legit. But sometimes the market just moves. The funniest was the other day when unemployment report was the high of the globex day, then proceeded to sell off the entire day. Yet, because globex traded higher than the last day's close, the headline was "Stocks soar on positive unemployment, ..." Despite the fact that the report was released AFTER a whole globex trading of up, up, up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The worst to me is when markets drops and they say it is to do with "profit taking" but then it raises again next day. I guess "profit-taking"is always a one day event. ;)

 

Doh! :doh:

 

They got to say something, Most of the time it is meaningless made up stuff. I don't care.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They got to say something, Most of the time it is meaningless made up stuff. I don't care.

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. Media don't like no news and so tend to look to sensationalise anything, to the point of idiocy.

 

Interestingly though, right now the thread poll(although only 10 voters admittedly) has zero votes for option 2!

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=26860&stc=1&d=1323690401

5aa710bb629dd_RiskOnRiskOffisBull-Page2-TradersLaboratoryForums-GoogleChrome_2011-12-12_06-43-.jpg.14972dc0b8195dd47db512fd54d7e84f.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately, I think you're right. Media don't like no news and so tend to look to sensationalise anything, to the point of idiocy.......
Not just sensationalize but fill news pages or airtime.

 

Like reporting the weather these days. All we want to know, with some kind of certainty if possible, what will tomorrow will brings us? They spend 15 minutes to tell us what has already happened today before they get to the actual forecast (30 seconds worth) for the following day. Sheesh! :doh:

 

:)

Edited by SunTrader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is a wealth of information being distributed here.

 

Problem is, for every good piece of information that is helpful to someone, there are another ten pieces of information which distract and delay the learning process... I'm not excluding my own posts from the "useless" or "harmful" category if the shoe fits of course. And of course some information may be factually correct but mislead one trader while it helps another. The challenge is to personally find what works for each of us. Just my :2c: , which should be noted, may not be worth anything to the reader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When first reading this thread, I answered the poll as "don't really care"... though there was a time that I would've answered differently.

 

As a newbie CNBC was on all day long. It didn't take long before I started turning it off when Larry Kudlow and the mid day crew aired (wow... what BS). Then I started turning it off when Cramer came on... then I dropped the "fast money" crew. Now, CNBC is relegated to "sound off... through the economic numbers"... then the TV is shut down for the day... listen to music... some days silence feels good... just me, the chart, and my money.

 

I must admit to some irritation at hearing catch phrases such as: "risk on / risk off". I get the same notion of bruised sensibility when hearing politicos speak about "jobs, jobs, jobs". Although; the latter probably irritates me more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what about as a social experiment.....collectively we come up with a new term OR a few terms as its generally a numbers game.

 

Once it has been decided on....then proceed to drop them into everyday conversation, or threads etc with others and see how long it takes to possibly get one of the catchy terms to be said by a broker or newscaster on TV.

 

Off the top of the head I might suggest...

 

"Eurocronies" - the banks, governments - anyone - who wont toe the line and will keep breaking their obligations to the Eurozone treaties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is a wealth of information being distributed here.

 

It was said with tongue in cheek, but they are not that different to one another. Filtering and sifting through the chaff and double talk on a forum is not that easy when your own knowledge is weak. I've been led up many a trading garden path.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When first reading this thread, I answered the poll as "don't really care"... though there was a time that I would've answered differently.

 

As a newbie CNBC was on all day long. It didn't take long before I started turning it off when Larry Kudlow and the mid day crew aired (wow... what BS). Then I started turning it off when Cramer came on... then I dropped the "fast money" crew. Now, CNBC is relegated to "sound off... through the economic numbers"... then the TV is shut down for the day... listen to music... some days silence feels good... just me, the chart, and my money.

 

I must admit to some irritation at hearing catch phrases such as: "risk on / risk off". I get the same notion of bruised sensibility when hearing politicos speak about "jobs, jobs, jobs". Although; the latter probably irritates me more.

 

I had the same experience also, first on CNBC and I am fast approaching the same on Bloomberg.

I keep reminding myself what Mark Douglas said, and that is that "the only job these commentators have is to sound reasonable", nothing else and (IMHO) real informative content be dammed.

Other peeves I have besides some of the annoying visuals and Ginzu knife commercials is the constant flaunting of sexual images. I always click the sound back on when I see what one might call a "not so good looking" preferably older woman or man for that matter, because they might actually only be there because they have something to say.

A female "Presenter,Reporter or whatever they prefer to be called, sitting on a four foot high bar stool with only a clipboard to hide her privates is something I prefer to be only confronted with while being served a Dirty Martini by someone with only a serving tray to......but I ramble....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
what about as a social experiment.....collectively we come up with a new term OR a few terms as its generally a numbers game.

 

Once it has been decided on....then proceed to drop them into everyday conversation, or threads etc with others and see how long it takes to possibly get one of the catchy terms to be said by a broker or newscaster on TV.

 

Off the top of the head I might suggest...

 

"Eurocronies" - the banks, governments - anyone - who wont toe the line and will keep breaking their obligations to the Eurozone treaties.

 

Great idea Siuya! Let me refine it slightly though. In addition to standard terms for things in the media, why don't we coin terms for when crap is written by the media(and various other people).

 

For example, in the forum a classic is the "Noob-baiter".(or even maybe the "Noobinator" if they're really good at it lol!)

 

In the media could be a "Keyword Clown" who writes an article.

 

Or maybe there is a ZIBSO article (Zero Idea - Bull Shit Only).

 

These three are especially common due to the proliferation of the internet and retail trading/investing.

 

I'll have another think about some more mainstream terms we could implant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • also ... and barely on topic... Winners (always*) overpay. Buying the dips is a subscription to the belief that winners win by underpaying - when in actuality winners (inevitably/always*) win by overpaying... it’s amazing the percentage of traders who think winners win by underpaying ... “Winners (always*) overpay.” ...  One way to implement this ‘belief’ is to only reenter when prices have emphatically resumed the 'trend' .   (Fwiw, While “Winners (always*) overpay.” holds true in most endeavors (relationships, business, sports, etc...) - “Winners (always*) overpay.”  is especially true for auctions... continuous auctions included.)
    • re:  "Does it make sense to always buy the dips?  “Buy the dip.”  You hear this all the time in crypto investing trading speculation gambling. [zdo taking some liberties] It refers, of course, to buying more bitcoin (or digital assets) when they go down in price: when the price “dips.” Some people brag about “buying the dip," showing they know better than the crowd. Others “buy the dip” as an investment strategy: they’re getting a bargain. The problem is, buying the dip is a fallacy. You can’t buy the dip, because you can't see the total dip until much later. First, I’ll explain this in a way that will make it simple and obvious to you; then I’ll show you a better way of investing. You Only Know the Dip in Hindsight When people talk about “buying the dip,” what they’re really saying is, “I bought when the price was going down.” " ... example of a dip ... 
    • Date: 19th April 2024. Weekly Commodity Market Update: Oil Prices Correct and Supply Concerns Persist.   The ongoing developments in the Middle East sparked a wave of risk aversion and fueled supply concerns and investors headed for safety. Hopes for imminent rate cuts from the Federal Reserve diminish while attention is now turning towards the demand outlook. The Gold price hit a high of $2417.89 per ounce overnight. Sentiment has already calmed down again and bullion is trading at $2376.50 per ounce as haven flows ease. Oil prices initially moved higher as concern over escalating tensions with the WTI contract hit a session high of $85.508 per barrel overnight, before correcting to currently $81.45 per barrel. Oil Prices Under Pressure Amid Middle East Tensions Last week, commodity indexes showed little movement, with Oil prices undergoing a slight correction. Meanwhile, Gold reached yet another record high, mirroring the upward trend in cocoa prices. Once again today, USOil prices experienced a correction and has remained under pressure, retesting the 50-day EMA at $81.00 as we moving into the weekend. Hence, despite the Israel’s retaliatory strike on Iran, sentiments stabilized following reports suggesting a measured response aimed at avoiding further escalation. Brent crude futures witnessed a more than 4% leap, driven by concerns over potential disruptions to oil supplies in the Middle East, only to subsequently erase all gains. Similarly with USOIL, UKOIL hovers just below $87 per barrel, marginally below Thursday’s closing figures. Nevertheless, volatility is expected to continue in the market as several potential risks loom:   Disruption to the Strait of Hormuz: The possibility of Iran disrupting navigation through the vital shipping lane, is still in play. The Strait of Hormuz serves as the Persian Gulf’s primary route to international waters, with approximately 21 million barrels of oil passing through daily. Recent events, including Iran’s seizure of an Israel-linked container ship, underscore the geopolitical sensitivity of the region. Tougher Sanctions on Iran: Analysts speculate that the US may impose stricter sanctions on Iranian oil exports or intensify enforcement of existing restrictions. With global oil consumption reaching 102 million barrels per day, Iran’s production of 3.3 million barrels remains significant. Recent actions targeting Venezuelan oil highlight the potential for increased pressure on Iranian exports. OPEC Output Increases: Despite the desire for higher prices, OPEC members such as Saudi Arabia and Russia have constrained output in recent years. However, sustained crude prices above $100 per barrel could prompt concerns about demand and incentivize increased production. The OPEC may opt to boost oil output should tensions escalate further and prices surge. Ukraine Conflict: Amidst the focus on the Middle East, markets overlooking Russia’s actions in Ukraine. Potential retaliatory strikes by Kyiv on Russian oil infrastructure could impact exports, adding further complexity to global oil markets.   Technical Analysis USOIL is marking one of the steepest weekly declines witnessed this year after a brief period of consolidation. The breach below the pivotal support level of 84.00, coupled with the descent below the mid of the 4-month upchannel, signals a possible shift in market sentiment towards a bearish trend reversal. Adding to the bearish outlook are indications such as the downward slope in the RSI. However, the asset still hold above the 50-day EMA which coincides also with the mid of last year’s downleg, with key support zone at $80.00-$81.00. If it breaks this support zone, the focus may shift towards the 200-day EMA and 38.2% Fib. level at $77.60-$79.00. Conversely, a rejection of the $81 level and an upside potential could see the price returning back to $84.00. A break of the latter could trigger the attention back to the December’s resistance, situated around $86.60. A breakthrough above this level could ignite a stronger rally towards the $89.20-$90.00 zone. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Michalis Efthymiou Market Analyst HMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past perfrmance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.