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rgudgeon

How Much Weight Should One Put on Market Direction?

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I am basically a trend trader. I have been out of this market now for some time as it (the market) has been up a down and sideways now for months. We have been in a sideways pattern for weeks and now we have seen a parabolic up move that just looks like it might blow off at any time.

 

The problem is that when I am out of the market I make no money - but don't lose any either.

 

Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

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Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

 

:2c:

rule number one is Capital preservation.....so sitting and waiting is best if it does not suit your system/style of trading. Plus unless you have setups that are robust, then they are not good setups, and taking them regardless at best might feed your broker but at worst will mess with you mentally and financially.....if that makes sense.

 

If you are a trend trader then these markets can be difficult unless your time frame is small enough, OR your trend entry system allows you to take a view and enter retracements and you happen to be bearish....then opportunities abound :)

 

If you feel you need to play, why not play very small size, or paper trade for a bit, or only take those setups you feel are the very best...(this last one is of course the hardest to sit and wait for). While you need to participate to win, you also need to be able to afford to play when it suits YOU.

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Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

 

Commonsense says IF there is money lying on the table, pick it up.

 

IF you have (or can research) a method which makes significant money after trading costs, why would you not trade?

 

And IF you don't have such method, why would you trade?

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I am basically a trend trader. I have been out of this market now for some time as it (the market) has been up a down and sideways now for months. We have been in a sideways pattern for weeks and now we have seen a parabolic up move that just looks like it might blow off at any time.

 

The problem is that when I am out of the market I make no money - but don't lose any either.

 

Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

 

Re: How Much Weight Should One Put on Market Direction?

 

if you are an option trader, NONE.

 

 

if you are a trend trader, what is a trend to you?

can you define it?

describe it?

articulate it?

quantify it?

visualize it?

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The significance of market bias (direction) depends on the context...off the open, it is critical...and I spend a lot of time and resource trying to determine what that bias will be

 

Why? Because when I get it right it is possible that I will be in the trade all day long, which is what I want to do...

 

If we are talking any other time of day, then it is questionable because other factors enter into the equation, such as time of day, news, programmed execution, price action of other markets, and several other factors. At other times I rely on tests of TBP and other factors including local volatility and momentum (as seen on the tape).

 

Good luck folks

Steve

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The significance of market bias (direction) depends on the context...off the open, it is critical...and I spend a lot of time and resource trying to determine what that bias will be

 

Why? Because when I get it right it is possible that I will be in the trade all day long, which is what I want to do...

 

If we are talking any other time of day, then it is questionable because other factors enter into the equation, such as time of day, news, programmed execution, price action of other markets, and several other factors. At other times I rely on tests of TBP and other factors including local volatility and momentum (as seen on the tape).

 

Good luck folks

Steve

.......... what is context?

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Context is the framework of data that surrounds the market. For example the context of the current market is primarily news driven, and that news is mostly about the European Debt Crisis. On any day that can change as events take place, and/or as economic reports are released introducing new information into the markets.

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Context is the framework of data that surrounds the market. For example the context of the current market is primarily news driven, and that news is mostly about the European Debt Crisis. On any day that can change as events take place, and/or as economic reports are released introducing new information into the markets.

 

how could you know the context has changed?

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attachment.php?attachmentid=26609&stc=1&d=1320598016

 

Trading is both science and art. The science is in your trade plan rules - signal setup, entry here, stop loss there, profit target here, manage the trade... whereas defining/reading market context is one aspect of the art-part of trading.

 

I agree news, time of day, open values, close values, 5th wave of Elliot wave, 930 cross, slingshot, 123 setup, ross hook, etc… etc… etc… all are part of reading context but I submit you can look at from a higher point of view.

 

Take any chart, the first instant you look at it - what do you see?

 

This is the basis of what defining context is about...

 

Do you see an uptrend?

Do you see a downtrend?

Do you see a sideways motion?

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=26610&stc=1&d=1320599432

 

Say for example you see an uptrend.... and yes things depend on your definition of uptrend, me I have found I like a chart for at least 3 time frames of the market I'm trading – I find conforming context in all three is more comforting and conclusive.

 

Do you believe that there are only 3 possible directions the market moves? I do and they are: up, down or sideways, what else is there?

 

I believe profit becomes available when the market context changes. Nothing makes me happier than to help others get out of bad trading decisions – enter where they exit.

 

Therefore, if it's already up, what are the remaining possible direction changes? Sidways or down.

 

Get the idea...( I think that makes for 9 possible combinations...I find it interesting how other techniques come together at some basic levels).

 

So if you see an uptrend...(by whatever means you define up trend) and as time rolls on you start to notice that for whatever reason you now see sideways or down movement...

 

ding ding ding context change

 

It’s important where this change occurs... it may be a reversal forming or it may be a pullback leading to continuation....ask yourself what else is there?

 

Now THINK...(actually this should be done outside of trading hours during nightly research/review, the science of trading should kick in here)

 

When do the best pullbacks to trade occur? During the beginning of the trend, the 1st pullback...which occurs after a reversal.

 

When do reversals occur? At the end of the trend with exhaustion or final flag sideways motion on the failure of the test of the prior extreme... (thanks Al Brooks for showing me this)

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=26611&stc=1&d=1320599765

 

 

Reading context is not mathematical in nature, if it were we would all have automated scripts to trade these moves...(ok taking it to the limit in millisecond timeframes - maybe)

 

Understanding this, thinking this way, is what I see as the basis of market context...

 

Other components I consider are: is price rising into a well-established resistance area... how many times has it done this 3-4 means reversal? How much profit potential is there in this setup versus risk burden? When did it last do this? Is this just before the well-established 10:00 EST news hour? Is this occurring on the 4th minute, 14th minute, 29th minute, 59th minute? Is price at 94 rising to 100(round numbers)? Did it spike on low volume thus is this a probe? Was there just a huge volume spike? Where are the prior reversal /swing points, does it want to head back there? Reading context gets complex... but It adds significantly to your confidence when you read what is going on correctly – confidence leads to consistency. Reading market context requires you to summarize the infinite number of market influences that come into the equation. (if you know differential equations, consider solving one with an infinite number of and ever changing constants).

 

With all this said, don’t over complicate things, pick one concept and master it, then move onto the next.

 

happy trading...

science_n_art.jpg.329d1acc832c4a1b17558d8dd14aa596.jpg

up-dn-sid-2011-11-06_1009.png.ce2e530ae12751489293665d945aa7da.png

example-2011-11-06_1014.png.14146d3e7963965a651d1606699e9ed3.png

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Steve, what is TBP? You probably explained it somewhere but i missed it

 

In my thread "An Institutional look at S&P Futures" I introduced the idea of pivots based on time ("time-based pivots" or TBP). Essentially the idea is that the market is moved by institutions that want to reach profit goals based on time (yearly, quarterly, monthly weekly and daily open high and low). As we move through time, each period assume more (or less) importance....so for example....as we reach the end of a week (say thursday or friday afternoon) and price is near to that time period's open, you may see the market test and then move up off of that price as institutions try to defend it....the same would be true of the end of month, and quarter year for instance.

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By observing how each market reacts to news of the day.

 

how could you know certain reaction was due to certain news?

is that a subjective decision?

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How can you "know" anything?

 

I think you have to rely on your training, and your track record of betting correctly on your analysis of the situation.

 

I was trained by skilled professionals and when I look back on my own experience I see that I am generally correct....

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Saw some of these other posts...

 

Certainly there is a mythology that everything is "in the chart"...therefore you need only look at the chart and see where it is going up, sideways, down.....and for the one dimensional thinkers in the crowd, I guess that is the solution you end up with.

 

Unfortunately that just doesn't "get it"....first a chart is just a display of data.....what happens in front of that...is that PEOPLE WHO CONTROL A LOT OF MONEY MAKE DECISIONS TO BUY OR SELL....THEN THE CHART IS CREATED...

 

I don't expect everyone to understand, but if one can obtain a good understanding of what motivates those people to buy or sell, you really have something...One of the purposes of Time-Based Pivots is to show how participants are motivated to act BEFORE the chart is created...If you know what participants are likely to do at specific times (and prices) then you have an edge over folks who simply watch a chart and then have to decide whether to react (or not) to what they are seeing.

 

While I were addressing this, I remember that Richard Dennis was asked once "Is technical analysis dead"?.....he is reported to have smiled and said "I hope not".....I think that about sums it up for me as well.,

Edited by steve46

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I am basically a trend trader. I have been out of this market now for some time as it (the market) has been up a down and sideways now for months. We have been in a sideways pattern for weeks and now we have seen a parabolic up move that just looks like it might blow off at any time.

 

The problem is that when I am out of the market I make no money - but don't lose any either.

 

Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

 

Hi rgudgeon

Strange name?

If you are not trading, how are you supporting your family?

The present conditions are NOT going to change before 2013

Trade small , BUT trade.

Kind regards

bobc

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I am basically a trend trader. I have been out of this market now for some time as it (the market) has been up a down and sideways now for months. We have been in a sideways pattern for weeks and now we have seen a parabolic up move that just looks like it might blow off at any time.

 

The problem is that when I am out of the market I make no money - but don't lose any either.

 

Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market?

 

One of the reasons 'old school' trend traders tend to trade multiple markets is for this very reason. On a well chosen basket of instruments (not too correlated of course) one or two will usually be trending.

 

Another possibility is to sample your data differently (a pretentious way to say look at another time scale :)) For example an instrument that has been stuck in a range for weeks and months will often (usually) be making great 3 4 5 + day 'trend' runs from the top to the bottom of the range (and back again). If you observe this on lets say on an hourly chart these they can look like (and be traded like) epic trends.

 

Incidentally quite a few commodities and currencies have had some great trends recently (depending of your perspective of course).

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One of the reasons 'old school' trend traders tend to trade multiple markets is for this very reason. On a well chosen basket of instruments (not too correlated of course) one or two will usually be trending.

 

Another possibility is to sample your data differently (a pretentious way to say look at another time scale :)) For example an instrument that has been stuck in a range for weeks and months will often (usually) be making great 3 4 5 + day 'trend' runs from the top to the bottom of the range (and back again). If you observe this on lets say on an hourly chart these they can look like (and be traded like) epic trends.

 

Incidentally quite a few commodities and currencies have had some great trends recently (depending of your perspective of course).

 

Hi Blowfish

I rate this best advise given in 2011

MMS will have to give you a prize.

Kind regards

bobc

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That's kind of you to say Bob. The bit on price behaviour was a bit of an aha moment for me. "Looking at a higher time frame for context" is a fairly well established concept however that idea is seldom fully explored. If you scratch a bit deeper and really look at how things fit together, you can come up with a really robust understanding of overall market structure.

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I never thought that I have to be in the market everyday. Sometime not trading is the best trade. Markets give us plenty of opportunities, missing a couple of them wouldn't kill you...

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I never thought that I have to be in the market everyday. Sometime not trading is the best trade. Markets give us plenty of opportunities, missing a couple of them wouldn't kill you...

 

It is true that there are a lot of opportunities to enter the market, but it is completely untrue that missing a few will not kill you. If you miss the good trades, at best, you could end up the year as wounded shark bait.

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One of the reasons 'old school' trend traders tend to trade multiple markets is for this very reason. On a well chosen basket of instruments (not too correlated of course) one or two will usually be trending.

 

Another possibility is to sample your data differently (a pretentious way to say look at another time scale :)) For example an instrument that has been stuck in a range for weeks and months will often (usually) be making great 3 4 5 + day 'trend' runs from the top to the bottom of the range (and back again). If you observe this on lets say on an hourly chart these they can look like (and be traded like) epic trends.

 

Incidentally quite a few commodities and currencies have had some great trends recently (depending of your perspective of course).

 

adding to this, we can also look at spreads. calendar spreads are probably the best place to start.

 

Take a look at heating oil:

 

HO.png?

 

(image from Scarr Trading if i can say that - im not affiliated or even subscribe to their service, but this just shows the point graphically)

 

Its usual for the back months to trade at a premium to front months due to insurance and storage charges. This market isnt. Buy the July, sell March contracts?

 

Spreads to trend more than out-rights with less volatility due to the fundamental drivers behind them. You also get margin offsets meaning you can take bigger positions to make up for the lower volatility or trade in a more risk adverse way, risking little.

 

So with BlowFish's idea of looking at other markets, you have 100's in which to find a trend. When you include calendar spreads you have 10,000's. Including inter commodity spreads you have 100,000's of markets. Taking BF's idea of other time frames to all of the above, you have 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000's of different markets.

 

Still say you cant find a trend? :haha:

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here is a quote for you: when in doubt get out

 

the problem is,

 

we were so certain we were right,

that we would go long in the face of an impending avalanche,

and when the slide begins,

we were so sure that it was only a minor correction, and that the market will go back on its upward trend in no time.

when the slide did not stop, we find justifications to allay the doubt,

when the doubt finally takes hold, we are already 3 feet under.

the wishful trader would look for a small rally to get out,

which never happened.

By the time DOUBT is confirmed, the trader is 6 feet under.

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RGUDGEON

"Is it better to sit back and do nothing when the market is like this or should I just look for setups and work them regardless of having no direction from the market"?

 

To.Mitubishi, and Tams

 

My answer: “when in doubt get out” was to the above question and intended to rgugeon I think it is the best course of action for him

 

Rgugeon even answered his own question “at least I did not lose any money”

 

And here is another quote for you Mitsubishi. “A trader become a real professional when he/she does not feel bad if they missed a trade” The biggest edge any trader has is: they don‘t HAVE to trade all the time

Edited by khamore1

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
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