Vendors Vendors Vendors

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Ok I see a ton of threads degenerating into a 'vendor' bash ... so here is a thread for all of you to give your opinion on vendors. I'll be reviewing this thread for feedback. And if I see good threads going down a wrong path, I will also be moving offending posts here so people can continue those discussions outside of the main thread.

 

thanks!

MMS

[electroniclocal 10]

These discussions are like a religious argument.

 

We are all looking at the same movie, the same maze, the same probloem to solve - whther to buy, sell, or do nothing. Some of us are more visual, some more numerate, some a combination of the two.

 

And like Uma and Steve here, we are competing in the markets against each other, zero sum game (the brokers always win).

 

There are many ways of finding the solution to the "problem" but the takeaway from all of this is that a successful trader finds a methodology, back tests the heck out of it over many different markets and volatilities and then creates a trading plan. The key to all of this is the use of the technology we have available to us.

 

With the risk of adding my own pee to the fire, I must say that what I see is the key to bringing more traders to CP (consistent profitability) is what I have been moving my focus to more in the last year with my students, the use of technology more. To use the tech nology to identify instantly, those backtested high probability trading pictures that meet a trader's TP (trading plan) so that either they, or their algo, can respond with instrant trade execution after the instant trade recognition.

 

The real holy grail is the competant use of the technology. It's simple but not easy as the saying goes, but also, its worth it.

 

And guys, you are coming to the party too late with these "early" warnings. If you had read my blog for the last few months as my students and others have done, then you would have seen what was coming, what was happening and why.

 

EL

[clmacdougall 11]

OK, this is becoming laughable. What is this a monster truck rally? Firstly "electroniclocal" you are a vendor selling your upcoming seminar for what is it, $5000 for the 3-4 day seminar. Next "steve46" you too are a vendor who gets paid to teach others trading and lastly "UrmaBlume" you too are a vendor wanting $1400 per year for your tradestation indicator package add on.

This is becoming a bit much!! I mean I appreciate good theory, but the self promotion is getting a little thick. So we would have had it all figured out if we had been reading your blog which leads us to need your overpriced seminar? I don't think so.

When you've got the theory figured out you could trade profitably using an abacus. Electroniclocal, your contribution to TL has been pretty weak, to try and use it to fund your seminar habit is shameful.

[Tams 20]

These discussions are like a religious argument.

 

We are all looking at the same movie, the same maze, the same probloem to solve - whther to buy, sell, or do nothing. Some of us are more visual, some more numerate, some a combination of the two.

 

And like Uma and Steve here, we are competing in the markets against each other, zero sum game (the brokers always win).

 

There are many ways of finding the solution to the "problem" but the takeaway from all of this is that a successful trader finds a methodology, back tests the heck out of it over many different markets and volatilities and then creates a trading plan. The key to all of this is the use of the technology we have available to us.

 

With the risk of adding my own pee to the fire, I must say that what I see is the key to bringing more traders to CP (consistent profitability) is what I have been moving my focus to more in the last year with my students, the use of technology more. To use the tech nology to identify instantly, those backtested high probability trading pictures that meet a trader's TP (trading plan) so that either they, or their algo, can respond with instrant trade execution after the instant trade recognition.

 

The real holy grail is the competant use of the technology. It's simple but not easy as the saying goes, but also, its worth it.

 

And guys, you are coming to the party too late with these "early" warnings. If you had read my blog for the last few months as my students and others have done, then you would have seen what was coming, what was happening and why.

 

EL

YOU are not adding to the discussion, and I do not appreciate that.

 

You sound like a desperate vendor, bitter about the success of your competitors.

 

If you want any respect around here (even as a vendor), you should start your own thread and start to share something of substance.

 

You post leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

[Deusomega 10]

All the vendors are a joke. Couldn't trade themselves out of a wet bag. Anyone who buys into these guys are simply ignoring millions of years of evolution and common sense lol.

 

On EL's website "Algo and Hybrid Trading Workshop - Beat the HFTs "

 

"Learn To Create An Algo And Learn How To Trade With It"

 

Really?!? In one workshop you are going to teach people who may or may not have any experience with markets how to create an algo and beat high frequency quants? Who have years of academic and practical experience.

 

Such garbage. And btw no one trades in pits anymore think of a new internet marketing tagline.

 

None of the posts from steve, EL, or Urma relate any usuable info rather all of it is basically vague generalities and trash.

 

It's funny because what first started as shameless self promotion by one vendor has turned into a vendor party with a touch of vendor d#ck measuring contest.

[electroniclocal 10]

The taste in my mouth is fine thanks, Tams.

 

I just was pointing out that giving an early warning before the fact is a little more useful than giving an early warning after the eventa has happened. And I'm not an unhappy vendor at all. Feel free to put me on ignore as I have you.

[clmacdougall 11]

The taste in my mouth is fine thanks, Tams.

 

I just was pointing out that giving an early warning before the fact is a little more useful than giving an early warning after the eventa has happened. And I'm not an unhappy vendor at all. Feel free to put me on ignore as I have you.

 

Hows about we feel free to refute you and warn others of your less than selfless ambitions of getting into their pockets. You sir have no shame!

[clmacdougall 11]

What does the Chinese government demand from international companies who wish to use their workforce?

"Intellectual property"!

You must leave something of substance in the country in order to have your goods made there. TL must become the same. A vendor must be made to leave substantial theory with this laboratory before they are allowed to promote themselves. If you're not a part of this community you shouldn't be able to attempt to leach from it.

[UrmaBlume 10]

All the vendors are a joke..............

 

You must have migrated here from ET where negative and content free is the rule.

 

Here at TL friendly/non personal, positive and content rule.

 

Not all vendors are a joke, some offer value and worthwhile products and services, some don't - that's what makes a market.

 

Here a little stealth marketing is tolerated because sometimes there is enough concept, content or stimulation enough to give it value. Without any of it, content here would be as bleak and meaningless as it is on ET and others like it.

 

Here the members decide for themselves what is buschwa and what is not. The value here is that the content is richer and the tone more positive than any other board of similar ilk.

 

You come here as a stranger, make 2 posts and both of them are content free, negative and bashing long term members about whom you know nothing.

 

Bashers and one-liners don't add content or value- they drive it from the site.

 

Instead -if you can, why don't you show us a piece of something that you authored or originated that is relevant to trading any market in any time frame and we will talk about that rather than your own personal, negative biases.

 

If you have something/anything to say that is relevant to trading the financial markets - by all means, start a thread and share it with us.

 

 

UrMaBlume

Edited August 21, 2011 by UrmaBlume

[clmacdougall 11]

Moving forward, vendor identification is necessary. Is there agreement that once discovered or known upfront, all vendor posts should be easily identified as being from a person with self interests in the community. Perhaps their i.d. could show their vendor status or their posts could be highlighted in a different color. Any suggestions?

[UrmaBlume 10]

Moving forward, vendor identification is necessary. Is there agreement that once discovered or known upfront, all vendor posts should be easily identified as being from a person with self interests in the community. Perhaps their i.d. could show their vendor status or their posts could be highlighted in a different color. Any suggestions?

 

What's more important - the content or the tag.

 

The two reasons content is richer here than on any other site is that 1) personal attacks are not tolerated and 2) Content is given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Why not have the richest possible content and let members decide for themselves. As of now I can't play online poker because some "others" have decided for me.

 

Laissez-faire is the source of our economic strength and the more it is diluted or regulated the less our collective or individual economic strengths.

 

Information = Equity and I would prefer to filter it for myself. If I can't tell gold from shit - I shouldn't be in the game. Where has more regulation/rules ever made it better?

 

cheers

 

pat

Edited August 21, 2011 by UrmaBlume

[clmacdougall 11]

What's more important - the content or the tag.

 

The two reasons content is richer here than on any other site is that 1) personal attacks are not tolerated and 2) Content is given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Why not have the richest possible content and let members decide for themselves. As of now I can't play online poker because some "others" have decided for me.

 

Laissez-faire is the source of our economic strength and the more it is diluted or regulated the less our collective or individual strengths.

 

Information = Equity and I would prefer to filter it for myself. If I can't tell gold from shit - I shouldn't be in the game. Where has more regulation/rules ever made it better?

 

cheers

 

pat

 

Hi Pat

 

Your game is in identifying the participant. It allows you to read intent into their actions. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, but the probabilities allow you to trade on that perceived intention.

Identifying a vendor helps you to draw a perception of someones intentions. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong, but what harm would it do to identify a participant as a vendor.

In fact we would all benefit as they would have to part with more and more of their intellectual property in order for our perception of them to change and for them to be accepted and possibly benefit from the community here at TL.

[UrmaBlume 10]

Hi PatYour game is in identifying the participant. It allows you to read intent into their actions. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, but the probabilities allow you to trade on that perceived intention.Identifying a vendor helps you to draw a perception of someones intentions. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong, but what harm would it do to identify a participant as a vendor.In fact we would all benefit as they would have to part with more and more of their intellectual property in order for our perception of them to change and for them to be accepted and possibly benefit from the community here at TL.

 

Wow, the way you say it, it's like the bid and asked desn't matter. The more and more you interfere with a market or information flow - the less it is Laissez-faire and the less valid/relevant it becomes.

 

Why not let us all, see all, and decide all for ourselves? If it gets crazy MadMS will take care of it.

 

p

[Deusomega 10]

You must have migrated here from ET where negative and content free is the rule.

 

Here at TL friendly/non personal, positive and content rule.

 

Not all vendors are a joke, some offer value and worthwhile products and services, some don't - that's what makes a market.

 

Here a little stealth marketing is tolerated because sometimes there is enough concept, content or stimulation enough to give it value. Without any of it, content here would be as bleak and meaningless as it is on ET and others like it.

 

Here the members decide for themselves what is buschwa and what is not. The value here is that the content is richer and the tone more positive than any other board of similar ilk.

 

You come here as a stranger, make 2 posts and both of them are content free, negative and bashing long term members about whom you know nothing.

 

Bashers and one-liners don't add content or value- they drive it from the site.

 

Instead -if you can, why don't you show us a piece of something that you authored or originated that is relevant to trading any market in any time frame and we will talk about that rather than your own personal, negative biases.

 

If you have something/anything to say that is relevant to trading the financial markets - by all means, start a thread and share it with us.

 

 

UrMaBlume

 

Yes I only have 2 posts one trashing a "robot" salesman who was posting totally unrelated content for sale about forex in a commodities thread. And this one hopefully giving some new people at least pause.

 

I'll disagree with you on ET because there are some excellent posters and threads(mostly older) on there.

 

About posting content well I'm not fully self sufficient from my trading income yet so I think any comments would be about as useless as the several thousands of other non fulltime traders. And I would not be bringing anything to the table that one couldn't find with search. Show me the content that steve or EL added. Oh wait I gotta pay first.

 

And yes my total purpose was to DRIVE people away from all of the vendor's that have popped up into this thread.

 

All of this is IMHO and thats free :0

[clmacdougall 11]

Wow, the way you say it, it's like the bid and asked desn't matter. The more and more you interfere with a market or information flow - the less it is Laissez-faire and the less valid/relevant it becomes.

 

Why not let us all, see all, and decide all for ourselves? If it gets crazy MadMS will take care of it.

 

p

 

Pat I am absolutely not in favor of censoring content. You already know that in my opinion your posts are the most content rich on TL. A vendor wouldn't lose the right to post but for eveyones good would have to be a little more transparent about his motives.

How would this affect a content rich poster who just happens to be a vendor as well? Your business would thrive because of it. It would be the perfect blend of information and reward for being such a help to the community.

We who follow your posts know that there is way more in theory, not in code, that you could possibly offer. Why not just let it fly and watch how it benefits your business. I understand that there are boundaries a vendor would need to have as well, such as no begging for code or looking to exploit the vendor.

Just my opinion Pat.

[MightyMouse 12]

Pat I am absolutely not in favor of censoring content. You already know that in my opinion your posts are the most content rich on TL. A vendor wouldn't lose the right to post but for eveyones good would have to be a little more transparent about his motives.

How would this affect a content rich poster who just happens to be a vendor as well? Your business would thrive because of it. It would be the perfect blend of information and reward for being such a help to the community.

We who follow your posts know that there is way more in theory, not in code, that you could possibly offer. Why not just let it fly and watch how it benefits your business. I understand that there are boundaries a vendor would need to have as well, such as no begging for code or looking to exploit the vendor.

Just my opinion Pat.

 

I think vendors should pay to advertise if they want the opportunity to host a thread and promote themselves. I would have a lot more respect for them if I knew they were paying to solicit business. However, it is MMS's site and he can run it the way he pleases.

[Deusomega 10]

Saying that labeling a vendor a vendor is restricting information flow is like saying labeling an organic apple organic is socialism.

[Deusomega 10]

I think vendors should pay to advertise if they want the opportunity to host a thread and promote themselves. I would have a lot more respect for them if I knew they were paying to solicit business. However, it is MMS's site and he can run it the way he pleases.

 

Maybe they do?

 

"No promotion allowed. Traders Laboratory does not accept solicitation and spam on the boards. We have a strict anti-spam policy and if violated, members will be banned without notice. If you are affiliated with any service provider, promotion is strictly prohibited. Common promotion methods include: silent spamming techniques, private messaging members, discount coupons, affiliate links, and implementing vendor messages in charts."

[clmacdougall 11]

Ok I see a ton of threads degenerating into a 'vendor' bash ... so here is a thread for all of you to give your opinion on vendors. I'll be reviewing this thread for feedback. And if I see good threads going down a wrong path, I will also be moving offending posts here so people can continue those discussions outside of the main thread.

 

thanks!

MMS

 

The reason for the degeneration is that the problem is not being dealt with and people are becoming tired with an excess of self promotion by non contributing vendors. By labeling all vendors you begin the exercise of sorting through and separating the good ones from the bad ones.

[gosu 10]

* * *

separating the good ones from the bad ones.

 

LOL.. Good one.

 

Maybe with like a rating agency for vendors?

[clmacdougall 11]

LOL.. Good one.

 

Maybe with like a rating agency for vendors?

 

Good point. I guess it would be best to label them all and let each individual decide for themselves.

[Tradewinds 12]

It took me a long, long while to figure out, and sort out what the motives were behind each members posts. New members to TL may have no understanding of the motives behind a post.

 

I was a member for quite a while before I started reading or making posts. I started reading and making posts as a way to work through trading ideas, learn, and hopefully contribute. My motive in contributing, is that I usually learn something new. So there is a personal benefit to being involved. I've learned that by trying to answer questions, and give opinions, I learn something new.

 

As I started to understand why different people were making posts, and learned things about them, I gained some clarity about what is going on. I began to realize that many people making posts are simply in the self-promotion business, for whatever reason.

 

It's not that self-promotion is inherently bad, but knowing what is really going on adds some depth of understanding.

 

Ultimately the goal of TL is to attract traders, and get them to visit the site often. Advertisers and vendors want to see a lot of traffic. TL is not going to hold or attract more traffic from people getting disgusted and fed up with the crap that goes on here. It just seems like common sense for TL to bring a halt to contentious and insulting behavior. I don't care if someone wants to sell me something. I might even want and like what they are selling. The self-promotion and selling isn't the problem.

 

It's not vendors, or self-promoting people who are the problem, it's anyone who just doesn't understand simple respect. Although, if TL wants to increase the respect level, then there needs to be some transparency about what is really going on. It may be surprising to many what the background and motives are of many of the members who make a lot of posts.

 

I've noticed that some members with a lot of posts, seem to have not made posts for years. Sooner or later, probably everyone moves on and stops visiting the site for one reason or another. TL should consider who is coming back to the site and why. You don't want an imbalance of contentious and/or self promoting people to the people who are sincerely looking for beneficial interactions.

[gosu 10]

You are obviously sincere but very naive.

 

It might benefit you to take things less seriously, because what you desire to obtain from here may not be possible.

 

The reality is very little transference can be accomplished through a message board.

 

You do get to see a lot of the myths in the industry get repeated over and over, sometimes by loudmouths and sometimes by polite idiots. Is there much of a difference?

 

The interest of the site owner is not aligned with that of a person who seeks to go beyond the myths. That's something you're going to have to do on your own outside of places like this.

[thalestrader 14]

Why not just add a "Commercial Thread" forum and move any thread that comes into being that is authored by someone with a known commercial interest?

 

And instead of the TL labels, e.g. "starting...," "guru", market wizard," etc, for those who are known to be vendors, a simple "commercial member" or "Vendor" would suffice. Other forums do it - they simply label a vendor as a vendor or sponsor or whatever, and then the others members at least know that the motives of their interlocutor may be more than simpy altruistic.

 

Label them all "Vendor," and be done with it - we can then be done with the vendor bashing as most of it is simply the well informed and formerly burned doing what we can to protect those less well informed. If all vendors are labeled as such, then let caveat emptor prevail.

But so long as the sharks are allowed to swim with the children while simultaneoulsy being allowed to masquerade as children, then those calling a sharkl a shark are right in doing so. If MMS sticks the sharks with a branding iron that makes their nature immediatley recognizable, then the children know when to get out of the pool on their own, or at least know to be counting their fingers and toes and checking for wounds.

 

Simple solution, if you ask me. Then again, no one asked ...

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[steve46 12]

What does the Chinese government demand from international companies who wish to use their workforce?

"Intellectual property"!

You must leave something of substance in the country in order to have your goods made there. TL must become the same. A vendor must be made to leave substantial theory with this laboratory before they are allowed to promote themselves. If you're not a part of this community you shouldn't be able to attempt to leach from it.

 

This is one point where we can agree.....to bad you did not do some homework before you spoke about me previously...

 

The threads I have authored here include "An institutional look at the S&P Futures" and "Ideas for Struggling Traders"...also "Trading Adverse Events".....in those threads I have quite a lot of "intellectual property including the concept of "time based pivots" which have not been published before....If you look at the page views, you cannot help but conclude that members are making good use of the material. Finally within the threads themselves, members have posted their "thank yous" periodically..

 

It will be interesting to see if you possess the character to apologize.

 

Steve