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Soultrader

Market Profile Trading Concepts

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Sometimes I wonder about some of the terms that MP folks make up. For example, the concepts of "initiative buying" "initiative selling" "responsive buying" and "responsive selling". See p.46 Dalton's Mind over Markets.

 

For those of you who don't have the book, what you do, if I've got this right, is compare the current day's market activity with the previous day's value area (VA). If the market is currently trading above VA, then you say that this activity is either initiative buying or responsive selling. To quote Dalton, "The initiative range extension and the responsive tail were one and the same activity."

 

So, bottom line, does this help the trader? Or not? How's he to know if he's looking at buyers initiating a new leg up in the market or sellers responding to higher prices and selling above yesterday's Value Area?

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I view it in the following manner:

 

1. If price breaks out of a value area or congestion and you fade i.e go short or long depending on the dir. of breakout, then you are responsive

 

2. However if you enter on a breakout or just before, then you are initiating.

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Thanks, rigel. My initial thought was that this information would be useful for trading, but it doesn't seem to be. The idea, in my mind, would be to discover some way to tell whether the inititators were going to have any follow-through or whether the faders were going to push price right back down.

 

Mixing styles here for a minute, there's a term in Wyckoff analysis called "joc" which stands for "jump over creek." This same idea (minus the cute term) appears also in VSA analysis--sometimes we see price "jump" over a resistance barrier in one big candle. The idea, apparently, is to keep the longs from selling ("hey, I'm in the money, no need to sell now") and to force the shorts to cover ("what the hell, oh my god I'd better get out").

 

Traders who use candles or bars can see this activity and they recognize it for what it is---fresh buying power, in other words, inititative buying. Traders who use Market Profile, however....how do they know from their profile that this is intitiative? I guess what I'm asking is whether there is something within the market profile, some detailed structure of the profile, that distinguishes between intitative and responsive?

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Tasuki,

yes it can get quite complicated if we try to figure out all that you mention in realtime intraday trading, by that time the trade would have gone and we would end up with a nasty headache. perhaps you can put this question on wyckoff forum where MP concepts are incorporated into boxes.

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perhaps you can put this question on wyckoff forum where MP concepts are incorporated into boxes.

 

MP Value Areas can be represented better by circles or ellipses than boxes.:missy:

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"The initiative range extension and the responsive tail were one and the same activity."

 

correct. so if we have established a balance area, a push outside that balance is initiative and we get range extension. the responsive tail means that the initiative effort was shut down. there wasn't enough power behind the move to sustain it, a more powerful responsive movement came in, and created the tail. back into the balance we go. we had a nice example of this today in the ES. at point #1, higher prices would be expected to shut down selling, but it didn't so someone was trying to initiate an upward move. after we got range extension up, sellers responded at point #2 and the upward movement failed. the area that sparked responsive selling lined up with yesterday's VAH (point #3).

 

How's he to know if he's looking at buyers initiating a new leg up in the market or sellers responding to higher prices and selling above yesterday's Value Area?

though i realize there is more complexity to the market and its behaviors, i use a very basic lens for this scenario: did the expected happen? if we reach the upper portion of a visibly recognizable balance area, did higher prices shut off the buying? if not, that is unexpected and therefore not responsive. it is initiative. that's only for the direction.

 

keep in mind how many different agendas are at play in the market at any given time. if, like we described above, the initiative move is weak and overtaken by responsive sellers then that initiative attempt failed. not only has this upward move failed sending us back down into balance, this can easily generate downward momentum and spark an initiative downward move at the bottom of our balance area.

 

i think understanding the market through Market Profile simply takes a lot of time and practice. remember that MP is not a strategy, nor is it a trading system. of course, that's not to say people can't create trading systems based off of MP.

 

i sincerely hope that helps.

 

thanks and take care -

 

omni

marked-up_ES_MP.2-18-2009_006.thumb.png.43201ff2b399795e07cc55eaa09d02b8.png

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i use a very basic lens for this scenario: did the expected happen?

omni

 

Sheer brilliance, omni. You obviously have an excellent grasp of Market Profile principles. Thanks very much.

Tasuki

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You obviously have an excellent grasp of Market Profile principles.
thank you, but I too am a perpetual learner :)
Thanks very much.

Tasuki

you're very welcome, i hope it was helpful.

 

take care and have a great weekend -

 

omni

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2. Opening Price in relation to the value area: Here is a rank of market balance vs market imbalance. If price opens above/below value and the previous days range, this creates a complete market imbalance. This offers a high risk but high reward trading opportunity. If price opens above/below value but within the previous days range this indicates a market imbalance but not as significant as the earlier example. This creates a medium risk and medium reward trading opportunity. If price opens within value and within the previous days range, this indicates a complete market balance. Unless price extends above/below value, this creates a low risk but low reward trading opportunity.

 

Please let me know if the attached chart visually represents what is being said above.

 

This is a chart of todays action on ZNM9.

 

Thx in advance.

ZNvalue.thumb.png.d80b459673ea007861083c0a417df9e4.png

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Isee this thread has not been really active a long time.

Anyhow, will give it a try:

 

i am trading mainly european markets using market profile intraday "mini LVN/HVN" area's to define S/R. Trading from typically 10tick charts. # of trades on Eurex instruments can be between 5-10 per day.

 

Anybody here using comparable techniques?

 

TR

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...

Traders who use candles or bars can see this activity and they recognize it for what it is---fresh buying power, in other words, inititative buying. Traders who use Market Profile, however....how do they know from their profile that this is intitiative? I guess what I'm asking is whether there is something within the market profile, some detailed structure of the profile, that distinguishes between intitative and responsive?

 

Tasuki,

Rather than soley rely on the profile graphic, I use Order Flow Foot Print chart to observe COT/Cumulative Delta setups to give me a final execution comfirmation heads up on whether to fade or follow the trend.

 

:cool:

DowIndexTrader(DIT)

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itradepod orgainsed mine, you can purchase the MP for $249 (no monthlys),but you have to email them to sort out the order flow.

 

Hope that helps.

 

How long have you been studying MP?...Have you read Mind over Markets?

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Regarding Market Profile concepts, I think that the role that time plays in understanding market structure and development is critical factor. Furthermore, the role that time plays within the concept of tempo in terms of market development and structure gives the trader a supreme edge for consistent profitability, imho.

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Feeling the market tempo is extremely helpful in trading, although this concept may be a bit hard to understand. For those trying to understand what tempo means, try relating it to music, where tempo plays an important role. Below is a video of a pianist playing Beethoven's Appassionata (3rd Movement of Sonata). What type of day would this be and where would you initiate a trade based on the tempo of this piece? It's Friday and I'm just having fun with this. Enjoy and have a great weekend! :)

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7usUEPWsc](In HD) Beethoven Sonata Op 57 "Appassionata" Mov3 - YouTube[/ame]

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. What type of day would this be and where would you initiate a trade based on the tempo of this piece? It's Friday and I'm just having fun with this. Enjoy and have a great weekend! :)

 

I'd say this market was range bound just prior to a minor news release. Being the conservative trader that I am, I'd limit my trades to short scalps. Entering short each time the lower SMA (left hand) crossed above the higher SMA (right hand) and take profits quickly at the VWAP (middle C). Another nice trade might be (but I haven't back-tested it yet) go long on the previous low when the spread between the bars high and low exceed 70% of the sessions daily range, with a target on the previous high. I wouldn't hold any positions overnight/weekend because if the FED decides to implement the Bösendorfer Scale (a Bösendorfer 225 has 92 and a Bösendorfer 290 "Imperial" has 97 keys) or something similar you'll probably get stopped out just under the lows. :)

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Thanks for playing $5DAW, but I see it a little differently than you do. :)

 

This piece (Appassionata) is very fast and starts off with momentum and a high confidence opening like an open-drive. Entries are difficult, if you're waiting for a pullback. A minute into it the tempo is still quite fast! This market is one-timeframing higher (or lower, but let's assume higher) and this is showing signs of being a strong trend day. Most traders will wait for a pullback or pause for entry, but an aggressive entry would be to just get long while the market is trending higher early in the day and volume is still increasing, and then monitor for continuation, but most traders won't do this. Believe it or not, the risk is actually lower if you try to catch a trend move early on increasing volume, but it is counter-intuitive to most. But let's assume that you don't initiate a trade this way because it doesn't suit your style, that's fine. So where can we initiate a trade with a more conservative entry? Well, let's wait for the pullback or pause. And what do you know, as fast as this market (or piece) is, the first pullback or pause starts 2:30 and ends at 2:55, after that, you missed the entry and the market is off again. Your first potential long was no later than 2:55, but the market has already been moving up without you. So now what do you do? Well, I can tell you, do not fade this market, whatever you do, don't fade this market, because it can end the day on near its high given the way it's moving. And if you did get long early in the day, this is an easy day for you. You want to hold this trade until the end of the day, if possible, and add to your long position on pullbacks. The previous pullback/pause was a good place to add to your long. On a trend day up, the market usually encounters an inventory imbalance in the afternoon when the market gets too long (i.e., an inventory imbalance to the upside). So what does it do? Well, it has to correct that imbalance before it can move higher. That inventory correction came in the form of another pullback that started at 5:00 and ended at 5:32. This is a high probability trade on a trend day (i.e., the inventory correction that normally ensues). That is your second long opportunity. After 5:32, the market resumes the trend. And then towards the end of the day, everyone is now seeing the trend and all the momentum traders are jumping on board. And we start to get a huge bar, a spike, starting at 7:09 and it indeed ends with a climax. So what do you do now? Sell and take your profits, the tempo at the end of the piece is too fast, and unsustainable, this is a spike and a "gift" from the market. You want to see good tempo, but you don't want tempo that is too fast. That is usually the sign of forcing action like long liquidation or short covering.

 

So if the Appassionata is a fast tempo piece indicating a strong trend day, what would be a more rotational type of day. Well consider the following piece instead. This for me is more of what $5DAW described in his post - a rotational day. This is Beethoven's Pathetique (2nd Movement of Sonata). Can you hear the difference?

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2nG1bt7IBM]Freddy kempf - Pathetique Mov 2 - YouTube[/ame]

Edited by ant

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Oh, and here is the 2008 market free-fall when the credit crisis hit. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHBuKmyhbtQ&feature=related]Hardest song on piano ever! (Circus Galop) - YouTube[/ame]

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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