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optiontimer

Optiontimer's Project

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Hi Neotrader,

 

For simplicity I've attached a chart of the daily EUR/USD as it's quite clear to show my trailing stop system. A short entry is marked along with the initial stop and two possible exits. As price makes each lower high marked with H move your stop down to 1 pip above the high. With this system entry was at 1.3591, stop 1.3816 - profit 712 pips or 2.8 R. Trailing the EMA would have taken you out at pips for 475 pips or 2.1 R.

 

Hi iwshares,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I have tried something very similar to it but I use the swing highs (for shorts) plus 10% of the range of the last 10 bars, in other words 0.1 * ATR(10)

 

That has proved to be effective as it avoids most stop-hunting at these levels.

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I believe you start eroding the effectiveness of the system and begin missing moves that would otherwise keep your expectancy up.

 

actually you dont.....you just end up with a different system.......the key is developing a system for you - that you can live with, based on underlying philosophy and ideas that work/make sense and are generally universal.

Everything becomes a trade off - from which MA, which X days, which number of filters to which filter.....the question is three fold (maybe more) - does this change make sense, and does this change make more money, and WHEN does this change perform best......:2c:

 

all tires are round, some are built for driving on snow, some gravel.....some for trucks, bikes, buses......

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How is everyone?

 

I've been exploring a different path for the last few months, and a new project has come to mind. It may be a suitable subject/project for a new thread.

 

I'm not ready to say much right now, but a suitable title for this potential project/discussion thread might be "Leptokurtosis," or perhaps, "Timing Leptokurtosis." Even more accurately "Exploiting Leptokurtosis through Timing and Bet Size" - in other words, something entirely too pretentious and academic to attract much interest.

 

-optiontimer

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I had to look up Leptokurtosis :)

It sounds like a skin rash.

 

I have been out of the markets lately as I moved, but just starting to edge my way back into it last week with some training drills.

Interestingly enough one of the things I have been looking at/thinking about is varying bet sizes slightly for what I have been building on....so it will be interesting if you start another project. If I could add anything as far as ideas, thoughts then happy to do so as you do have a great way of describing and explaining things.

 

I would say, that ultimately a lot may end up looking the same from the point of view - ultimately we are looking to build the biggest positions possible with the smallest risk possible to capture the largest gains possible.....how to do that is the many and varied road.

 

From an option trading point of view once you start looking at fat tails and/or Leptokurtosis (if my reading of what it is is correct) then it would be interesting.....and yes I prefer the dumbing down of statistical ideas into lay mans terms too :)

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... ultimately we are looking to build the biggest positions possible with the smallest risk possible to capture the largest gains possible.....how to do that is the many and varied road...

 

You and I are on the exact same page ... it is all a matter of how much does it cost me if I am wrong versus how much I can win if I am right.

 

 

 

OT

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It's sad to see this thread die. I have greatly benefited from it.

 

I am hoping there are some out there that still check back on it to offer some feedback on a question I had.

 

Specifically related to the methods outlined in this thread, how many of you adopt a "fire and forget" mentality to it?

 

Do you set your target and stop then wait for the position to close itself?

 

Do you review positions daily and consider updates? If so what grabs you enough to close the position if it hasn't reached target/stop?

 

I realize there is no right answer, but I'm interested in the though processes of more seasoned traders than myself (i.e. just about anyone)

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Hi Neotrader,

 

I've not posted in a while as I've been evaluating my ideas. One problem I've found with my trailing stop approach is it does need a certain amount of babysitting as I'm using it on range charts on spot EUR/USD which never closes...

 

I have just started testing my approach (described below) using some daily charts of stocks but haven't got enough results to report back.

 

Not using profit targets has led to committing the "sin" of letting a winner into a loser on occasion, even as much as 2:1 RR to stop out but overall it is profitable so I'll carry on using it. What I've found during testing and live trading is that you can never tell which trades will almost stop then go on to 3, 4, 5 or 6 R returns and which will stop at a loss so I just have to trail the stops as I'm told by the system. Hope that is of some use - if it's any use I'm finding exits the most difficult aspect too!

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Here are two very good and relevant posts to the topic at hand from another recent thread here at TL:

 

... In true trend trading, outliers ARE the edge.

 

ie a ‘real’ trend trader is not trying to improve entries, is not trying to prevent or diminish losses… he or she is simply entering positions with the trend and waiting for outlier moves - period…

 

actually given that you think trend following is about outliers, then MM (i.e. money management - edit by optiontimer) can be fairly important here ... Aim is to have the maximum amount on for an outlier ... pyramiding really works when it works ...

 

I do not recall discussing "targets." Stop loss? Absolutley! Profit target? Not here ... and if I did suggest such a thing ... I shudder at the thought. When I day trade, I do often use profit targets. But this thread was not about day trading. This thread is about trading a system where the edge is as zdo stated - catching the outlier and riding a trend, adding to winning positions as the market moves in favorably.

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This thread is about trading a system where the edge is as zdo stated - catching the outlier and riding a trend, adding to winning positions as the market moves in favorably.

 

That's exactly what drew me into this thread: the "simplicity" of a trading where you jump on board a trend and get out when the market's given all it can (be that positive or negative). The expectancy for me has been fantastic. One trend in January allowed entries returning 7 +5+4 = 16R; another 9+8+5 = 22R. Consequently I can take a lot of setups that stop for 1R loss and still make a profit. After some time with contrarian setups, I've really taken to trend trading. I like how the market has to add proof that the pullback is not a retracement - the StochRSI filter seems to indicate this quite well. Thanks again OT!

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Its is an interesting dilemma that I am finding trying to automate some approaches.

The computer is very binary, and getting stopped out by a tick or two only to watch things continue in the original direction is frustrating.....sure sure you could use larger stops, no stops, varying stops etc; but the computer is very precise.....and then it only wants to react when it sees a 21 ma, cross a 33 ma rather than a 20 cross a 34 or whatever.......

Stopping yourself out at 1, or 2 or 3 ticks over a new higher higher, or just letting the pattern develop --- the computer does not care.

Thats why in my opinion (while I am sure it can be done) its very hard to get a set and forget automated system of one size fits all.

(driving me crazy actually maybe I should just throw in the towel on this one :))

 

While alternatively looking at the overall picture, not worrying about exact entries, stops, etc, looking to get on board the instruments that are already trending, at what could be seen as retracements in those trends, at levels that offer reasonable levels of success (eg, a 50% retracement of a recent upmove in an existing up trend, or a move back toward a trending MA)......

 

I guess its more a style/strategy/mind set for asset allocation rather than a system....

and as option timer says (if I may change slightly what he says)

....

"But this thread was not about day trading. This thread is about trading a STRATEGY (system) "

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Here are two very good and relevant posts to the topic at hand from another recent thread here at TL:

 

 

 

 

 

I do not recall discussing "targets." Stop loss? Absolutley! Profit target? Not here ... and if I did suggest such a thing ... I shudder at the thought. When I day trade, I do often use profit targets. But this thread was not about day trading. This thread is about trading a system where the edge is as zdo stated - catching the outlier and riding a trend, adding to winning positions as the market moves in favorably.

 

Hi Optiontimer, I have been following your system from day 1 with great interest,( this by the way is my first post) I just want to thank you for your time and expertise you have helped me make money, and greatly reduced my losses on my losing trades, which by the way are only 2 out of 10 trades. Thank you once again for a great System and the introduction to Stanley Kroll .

 

Regards Nigel

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.. as zdo stated - catching the outlier and riding a trend, adding to winning positions as the market moves in favorably.

 

I understand up to this point. I guess my question is, how are we deciding that the trend is no longer moving favorably?

 

Obviously this is answered quite quickly if 3 days after you enter your position your stop loss has hit, but what about in cases where it moves to 2 or 3R then starts to slide? Do you move your stop to 2r after it hits that? To break even? I get not using a profit target, but how to you keep from handing it all back?

 

So far I've tried using the EMAs and the 65 seems too sluggish unless the trend really explodes and the 21 seems too sensitive as pullbacks in the trend often will cross it. I am reluctant to use support/resistance, because that seems to more fit profit targets and short term trading.

 

Maybe I'm just floundering around too much and thinking too hard. Maybe just pick a method and suck up the 15 1R losses and be patient for my 20R gain.

 

I guess I was trying to get a feel for what others who are more successful like to use.

 

ATRs? Support/Resistance? Volatility? R multiple? Dartboard? :crap:

 

As always, thank you for the time you all contribute. It is much appreciated. :)

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Looking to Enter USD/JPY depending on today's close. Depending on the high and if StochRSI hooks up on closing basis I will use approx 65 pip stop around 10 pips below recent swing low with my objective being retest of recent 84.00 high for around 6R return.

usdjpy.png.8fb39a521979f2f4c9c613e7a0ee9050.png

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Well I must admit to anyone still following this thread that I moved my stop loss based on price action late last night. I decided to watch price as the market opened in Asia to see how support held up. I didn't like what I saw and bumped my stop down 2 pips then 3 more pips. Price came within 4/10ths of a pip of stopping me at one point.

 

This isn't much of an adjustment considering my previous stop and target but I still feel like I cheated and it seems like the market will take notice and swing violently to take me out at my new stop level in the next few days anyway. Seems it would serve me right.

 

On the one hand I felt good about seeing what price was doing, and realizing my stop was a bit too tight. For now it seems that buying has stepped in and I might be ok.

 

On the other hand I'm not happy with what in my opinion was a mentally weak move to meddle with the trade mid flight.

 

Obviously need to work on the "fear of loss" aspect of my trading. :crap:

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My :2c:

 

Did you test your version of the system and refine the rules accordingly? If so did you move your stop according to your plan?

 

If so then don't be annoyed about a) moving your stop or b) the market moving against your position. Even if it's only 10% accurate but has a profit factor of 9.1:1 then you're laughing all the way to the bank.

 

What I found was it took quite a bit of back and forward testing (with small amounts of real capital) to discover a set of exit rules I was happy to trade. I also find it useful to keep a log of perfect trades e.g. if I take a trade when the setup wasn't complete or I typoed the order it doesn't go in the perfect ledger. This allows me to gauge how my execution is performing compared to testing, or discover if there is an unexpected problem with the system when used in live trading.

 

I found with my first version of the rules that while in testing it was profitable, poor execution or more accurately a system that allowed for too much indecision, reduced the profitability to negative. I also couldn't take the barrage of loss after loss of real money (which wasn't a problem for me with paper $$) so looked for a system beter suited to my loss tolerance.

 

Despite a strong start to the year so far this month (due to lack of strong trends as I'd interpret them) I've had 6 losses, 3 break-evens and one profitable trade, but I'm still carrying on with my small grubstake, taking each trade as it comes.

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Thank you sir.

 

Unfortunately I did not move the stop according to the system, so it was a bad trade all around really.

 

I'm sure its not uncommon but what particularly frustrates me about this trade is that the entry was barely triggered and it did nothing but go against me since it was triggered.

 

I think I need to analyze my entry technique and refine it some, or rather my money management. I need to resist the urge to set the initial stop too tightly or at least get a better feel for the timing.

 

On a minor technical level I'm having a hard time reproducing the StochRSI as accurately as I'd like. I know that it's more of a training wheel and ultimately I will learn to get a feel for when price will mostly likely respect a level of support or resistance.

 

Need to get back on the horse and stick to my rules. Strive for better execution.

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Will look to reenter USD/JPY if I get a signal.

 

Feeling a lot less secure about this support level however.

 

I entered the same trade at the same time as you but noted the hourly before execution and that all the rules were in place, I closed out the next day with a small profit.

I am also using RSI 2 along with stochastic RSI to confirm entry, and along with 21ema and 65ema I am also using 5ma to exit. Agree with you if an uptick appears at the close today or tomorrow and all my rules in place will be looking to get back aboard.

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I've been following this thread since April last year with keen interest and am curious as to how the system has worked for eveyone over the last year.

 

Has anybody kept a profit/loss log of their trades to show how the system has performed for them and would care to share? :)

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Maybe you should try and see for yourself, on a demo account ? I just got directed to this thread, finishing reading the book by S Kroll and then try the system.

 

I've been following this thread since April last year with keen interest and am curious as to how the system has worked for eveyone over the last year.

 

Has anybody kept a profit/loss log of their trades to show how the system has performed for them and would care to share? :)

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Maybe you should try and see for yourself, on a demo account ? I just got directed to this thread, finishing reading the book by S Kroll and then try the system.

 

I tried Optiontimers strategy without success, however I combined the ema's with fibonnaci and RSI stochastic and have been quietly pleased with my results.

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I tried Optiontimers strategy without success, however I combined the ema's with fibonnaci and RSI stochastic and have been quietly pleased with my results.

 

Awesome!

 

Why don't you post a chart or two showing what you are doing with the fib's? You might end up helping someone else to achive better results!

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    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
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