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Why Do More Than 90% of Traders Lose?

how about an informal poll of all those who make their living trading? all forms, day  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. how about an informal poll of all those who make their living trading? all forms, day

    • Yes
      40
    • No
      32
    • I don't make my living entirely from Trading, but it supplements my income.
      41


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Ha ha ha

 

It is a shame that so many have to lose to make so little.

 

this is life...

 

no different from the medical school, law school, engineering school... etc.

 

most of the people who wanted to become a doctor, do not make it.

most of the people who made it to be a lawyer, do not make enough money to be proud.

most of the engineers, do not work in the engineering field.

 

the only difference between a trader and the other "professions" is...

 

the barrier to entry is low... any Tom, Dick, and Harry who has a few hundred dollars can open an account and pretend to be a get-rich-quick trader.

 

the hard reality is, most of the wannabees are under funded, under prepared, under psych'ed... and over hyped.

If you ask anyone with their state of preparation to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, they will fail too.

 

The wannabees failed, not because they are stupid, but because they are naive.

 

There is no medicine for stupidity,

the medicine for naivety is the school of hard knocks.

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John,

I think what you're describing is a realization and not necessarily an edge. An edge has to put the odds in your favor everytime you take a risk. Knowing that price moves the same everyday does not in itself increase your odds of trading in the right direction or not getting stopped out. I don't think price moves the same every day because markets have different types of days, trend/bracket/congestion and etc.. In addition, mixed in there is a lot of random behavior.. It is possible but certainly difficult because the slight edge that is available is almost always very well hidden..

TZ

 

 

I would hazard a guess that your decision is based on chart information only, would i be correct?

 

I can't really go into detail without knowing what your answer is.

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Hi TZ,

 

Yes, I am describing a realisation and yes it flows directly into an 'edge' that exists each and every day.

You appear to me to be thinking of the overall behaviour of the day when you write 'trend/bracket/congestion and etc..'

 

I have no interest in this behaviour until the day becomes yesterday, in which case it may have some influence on how today trades out....

 

Primarily I am only interested in each Price Wave and that is what I trade.

Some days present more trade-able PWs to me than others, but on days that present fewer PWs, they tend to be longer in duration.

 

TZ, please consider me as a simple person who tries to relax into simplicity each day

by seeing the simplicity in the things I do.

 

This attitude neither makes me right now wrong ... it just keeps me simple.

 

John,

I don't question the edge of your method. I've seen so many different methods work that I know there are many ways to do this. I know this trader that trades off elliot wave only with a line on close chart only and does incredibly well. I can't see what he sees but his results validates his method. I know another guy who reads price only with nothing else and his results validates his method. Here's the clencher, I've even seen a consistently profitable scalper that almost never has a losing day trading. He feels his method is so simple and yet I feel my method is simpler, but he disagrees. I feel a bit uncomfortable placing trades off their methods and they feel a bit uncomfortable placing trades off my method but they all work.. so I don't question anybody's edge.. I was only suggesting that a realization does not translate to edge but obviously you have your method that is wave based where market conditions have less impact..

TZ

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John,

I don't question the edge of your method. I've seen so many different methods work that I know there are many ways to do this. I know this trader that trades off elliot wave only with a line on close chart only and does incredibly well. I can't see what he sees but his results validates his method. I know another guy who reads price only with nothing else and his results validates his method. Here's the clencher, I've even seen a consistently profitable scalper that almost never has a losing day trading. He feels his method is so simple and yet I feel my method is simpler, but he disagrees. I feel a bit uncomfortable placing trades off their methods and they feel a bit uncomfortable placing trades off my method but they all work.. so I don't question anybody's edge.. I was only suggesting that a realization does not translate to edge but obviously you have your method that is wave based where market conditions have less impact..

TZ

 

Interesting response TZ.

Although there are several methods (techniques) of trading say the ES, essentially they amount to the same thing.

....Buy as price is about to rise and sell as price is about to fall....

 

When we accept this premise, then the challenge becomes a philosophical one, not a mathematical one as a heck of a lot of people seem think.

I say this because of the nature of the questions that People ask here on ET many of which end up in spirited debates... very sadly it is like watching the tail wag the donkey.

 

My belief, which I have stated before on ET, is that Retail trading is 80% physiological, 18% market knowledge and 2% mathematics.

 

The first two (physiology and knowledge) should be rolled together and it is from here that we determine our philosophy from which we will trade ..... everything we learn about The Market and about Our-self must be tested for delusion .... either we are correct about Our-self and about the Market or we are wallowing in delusion and we must try again, going back to square one until we succeed.

 

As a result of this exercise, the actual mechanics of how we trade will become self evident and are by and large tailored to The Traders style.

 

But the outcome is the same.

 

Numbers like 90%+ failure rate and 10,000 hours screen time have no meaning since we are one single person and we will develop at our own pace.

Edited by johnw

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Any edge that can be found will be slight, but its the trust in this slight edge that will do wonders for your results.

 

Look how many millions and millions of dollars the casinos take in each year.The Blackjack tables in Vegas give the house a 51% Edge, to scale, 1% is massive.

 

On a more personal level, pull up a compounding interest calculator and throw in 8% over 30 years, change it to 9%, 10% etc. see how just 1 percent can make a huge difference. I think most traders lose because they aren't able to capitalize on there edge to scale or with any size.

 

The more $ you manage the smaller % you need to make to keep increasing your bottom line. What % would a new trader have to make to bring in 50k a year on a 10k account, 50k account, or even 100k account. As the years go by in my trading I've come to realize it's simply a #s game, well a mental game of #s :)

 

Enjoy the day,

Tim

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Look how many millions and millions of dollars the casinos take in each year.The Blackjack tables in Vegas give the house a 51% Edge, to scale, 1% is massive.

 

On a more personal level, pull up a compounding interest calculator and throw in 8% over 30 years, change it to 9%, 10% etc. see how just 1 percent can make a huge difference. I think most traders lose because they aren't able to capitalize on there edge to scale or with any size.

 

The more $ you manage the smaller % you need to make to keep increasing your bottom line. What % would a new trader have to make to bring in 50k a year on a 10k account, 50k account, or even 100k account. As the years go by in my trading I've come to realize it's simply a #s game, well a mental game of #s :)

 

Enjoy the day,

Tim

 

Its because the edge is so small that discipline is so important and so difficult. Often your edge will be in doubt because its so small. However, if it is real and you trust it, you will be the casino.

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Interesting response TZ.

Although there are several methods (techniques) of trading say the ES, essentially they amount to the same thing.

....Buy as price is about to rise and sell as price is about to fall....

 

When we accept this premise, then the challenge becomes a philosophical one, not a mathematical one as a heck of a lot of people seem think.

I say this because of the nature of the questions that People ask here on ET many of which end up in spirited debates... very sadly it is like watching the tail wag the donkey.

 

My belief, which I have stated before on ET, is that Retail trading is 80% physiological, 18% market knowledge and 2% mathematics.

 

The first two (physiology and knowledge) should be rolled together and it is from here that we determine our philosophy from which we will trade ..... everything we learn about The Market and about Our-self must be tested for delusion .... either we are correct about Our-self and about the Market or we are wallowing in delusion and we must try again, going back to square one until we succeed.

 

As a result of this exercise, the actual mechanics of how we trade will become self evident and are by and large tailored to The Traders style.

 

But the outcome is the same.

 

Numbers like 90%+ failure rate and 10,000 hours screen time have no meaning since we are one single person and we will develop at our own pace.

 

I believe the physiology/psychology has to be put into context with the way we're supposed to trade with our method. Ultimately, our method needs to have a mathematical edge.

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The answer sir or madam, is that retail (amateur) traders lack education, aptitude, skills, experience and are usually under capitalized....

 

Just because one is a "retail" trader doesn't necessarily make one an "amateur." I will assume that by your statement you worked (at some point) for a firm trading other people's money? Are you trying to say that this makes you a pro?

 

Hardly.

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He (steve46) is a vendor that sells 4 of the 5 items he mentioned. It's spam. I have him on ignore.

 

Just because one is a "retail" trader doesn't necessarily make one an "amateur." I will assume that by your statement you worked (at some point) for a firm trading other people's money? Are you trying to say that this makes you a pro?

 

Hardly.

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Thanks for the question!

 

but even if this figure is somewhat exact, i will never know all the reasons.

 

Speaking for myself, these are roughly the area's that I am refining to improve:

a=niche (pertinent monitors)

b=planning and appetite/risk control

c=segment and value eminent market potential

d=position launch timing and pertinent initial protection

e=secure market advances with tactical trails

 

c is the creative part. The challenge is to think of systematic and economic ways to better segment what is good potential and what isnt. I believe c is to be regarded the soul of any of my approaches.

 

Peace

Edited by neutral

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i think a lot of it has to do with expectations and risk. lets look at the retail trader (80-90% failure rate) vs the 'pro' managing someone elses money (i reckon about 40-50% failure rate, which is one point - less stress, the failing pro just goes back to the middle/back office as a risk manager):

 

the trading done by a 'retail' trader is that we tend to try and make money from calling market direction and hopefully managing the probabilities accordingly. It can be done, but first the focus has to be on managing probabilities rather than 'predicting' direction. to succeed you need to have a professional attitude and incredible flexibility.

 

trading done by 'pros' however is a different kettle of fish. they are mostly market neutral strategies, looking to exploit long or short term price anomalies between 2 component such as cash v futures, futures v otc, synthetic positions, etc. cta's are the exception to this - they are essentially trend followers, but they dont use technical analysis as their mainstay. they will use it as a factor, but mostly use market sentiment (implied vols), economic figures, open interest, CoT reports etc. the typical retail trader cant trade the size or afford the infrastructure needed to trade this way.

 

expectation is another part of the equation. where as a retail trader is looking to earn a good living from a 50k account (eg), the pro will be happy with 25% return on the millions/billions the institutions have invested with him.

 

so to compare a retail trader against a pro isnt really fair as its a totally different business model, and a lot, lot tougher as the returns have to be much, much higher, and the only way to get those comparatively massive returns on capital v the pro requires much, much, much more risk.

 

with so much risk being taken, is it any wonder the retail traders life expectancy is so much lower to the pros? basically, in comparison, were playing russian roulette, or, as the pros like to say ' betting on red or black' for a directional trade.

 

i dont really think there is much that can be done to increase the life expectancy of retail traders, except not putting a dime in the market until you can show yourself several months of consistency in sim. even then the whole game changes when real money is on the line - so feel free to disagree with me. one thing is for sure - if you cant make it in sim, you aint got a cat in hells chance in a live market.

 

it can be done though - but most wont have the determination to make it happen. if youre doing it for the money, not the love, again you havnt got a chance.

Edited by TheDude

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I believe the physiology/psychology has to be put into context with the way we're supposed to trade with our method. Ultimately, our method needs to have a mathematical edge.

 

Hi TZ,

 

Yes, of course a trading method needs a mathematical edge ...that is like saying a car needs gas in the tank before ir will run.

Identifying an 'edge' is not difficult, but applying it consistently is another story entirely.

 

That is why I say that a Trader must free him/herself of all self delusion first, before charging into the market ...that is 'the context' that you are talking about.

 

It is the same in any applied field.

Observe how the Navy trains Seals, the Air Force trains Combat Pilots, Senseis train Martial Artists ... first they remove any sense of Self Delusion and then and only then they apply the training.

 

If you want to see Self Delusion in action and the mess that it creates on a grand scale, just take a look a Politics and the current crop of Politicians.

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Identifying an 'edge' is not difficult.

 

I'd probably argue that most people find it extremely difficult to identify an edge. There's no shortage of people attempting to develop mechanical strategies, and by and large they fail.

 

The other issue of course is that on the very few occassions that someone reveals information that might help them identify an edge, they tend to completely ignore it.

 

At a push I might even go as far as to argue that an experienced trader is able to trade without an edge

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There are various (numerous) different types of "edges" for a trader and they don't all involve math, formulas, mechanical systems, automation trading, indicators, patterns and so on along that line.

 

Thus, if a trader is profitable without one of the above, that trader obviously has an edge that has nothing to do with the above. For example, if someone is a discretionary trader and is very discipline in following his/her trading plan...resulting in consistent profits. That discipline is an edge although not the only edge in comparison to that same trader trading without discipline that results in consistent losses. Simply, if a trader can prove that he/she is profitable with "something" while not profitable without that same "something"...trading with that "something" is an edge.

 

Therefore, all profitable traders have an edge and such becomes more apparent as each year goes by. Yet, that edge just may not be "something" you're able to recognize or you may not think its not important whereas in contrast its extremely important to the other trader. Simply, most profitable traders have other "edges" (plural) that are independent of their trade method but works well with the trade method.

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I'd probably argue that most people find it extremely difficult to identify an edge. There's no shortage of people attempting to develop mechanical strategies, and by and large they fail.

 

The other issue of course is that on the very few occassions that someone reveals information that might help them identify an edge, they tend to completely ignore it.

 

At a push I might even go as far as to argue that an experienced trader is able to trade without an edge

 

You guys should define what an edge is before you decide if it is easy or hard to find. It could very well be that traders fail because they do not know what they are looking for and end up make donations all day long.

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I'd probably argue that most people find it extremely difficult to identify an edge. There's no shortage of people attempting to develop mechanical strategies, and by and large they fail.

 

The other issue of course is that on the very few occassions that someone reveals information that might help them identify an edge, they tend to completely ignore it.

 

At a push I might even go as far as to argue that an experienced trader is able to trade without an edge

 

Hi zupcon

An experinced traders edge is his experience

Kind regards

bobc

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[quote name=wrbtrader;135031

 

Therefore' date=' all profitable traders have an edge ................................

 

Yes, of course ... that is my point entirely .... if we take care of the important things first, the 'edge' drops into place.

What shape it takes is can only be relevant to the Individual Consistently Profitable Trader and quite frankly I don't imagine he/she really cares since they are beyond that point.

 

The 'edge' however does matter to People who are still struggling ... and I don't say this in an unkindly manner.

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"The ads made me think, 'This is easy,'"Dorothy Ouma single mother

 

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity" Albert Einstein.

 

It seems unfashionable these days to describe someone as stupid for fear of being seen as uncaring, insensitive, or heaven forbid honest.

 

.....but really.... come on..... let's start being more honest with one another.

 

If your blaming adverts you really are a dumbass.

 

[ame=

]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs[/ame] Edited by RealDemo

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...

At a push I might even go as far as to argue that an experienced trader is able to trade without an edge

 

zupcon,

no edge...like a coin flip...50/50?

need high win-probability, greater than 3-1...

good reward / risk analysis solves that issue...

PnF charts are excellent for R/R analysis...

i guess i agree with you zupcon....(well said)

 

however...i'll still look for those little 'nuances' that give me a leg up.

 

peter.

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    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
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