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Tradewinds

How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

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Re: How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

 

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Hi, Laguna: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that discipline and patience can be taught. Little kids aren't disciplined or patient but they learn (at least some of them do). Even adults can learn discipline and patience - look at what happens in the armed forces. As for most adults, if they have a good enough motivator, they can learn just about anything if they are given the right information.

 

As to loving trading, I think that people love different things about the experience of trading. I started out loving the "puzzle" aspect of trading. Some love the challenge, some love that they are in control of their time and effort, etc. If traders become successful, I think they love the rewards of trading. So, if you can teach trading successfully, maybe, in the end, you are teaching love of trading.

 

Well, if you know Schoool Of Patience And Discipline: let me know. Only professional trading courses devote time to such. Psychology is the biggest aspect of hiring in serious trading firm, not boiler rooms. There is a reason why 95% fail: most come for the love of money, not for the love of the game, while battling their own demons, but refusing to accept responsibility for failures in life.

It is not a graduate school, that most can afford. Will be lovely if there was one, but it will be a pricey and lengthy process with exclusive acceptance only after selective screening.

Sadly, I know traders who have been in the industry for 10+ years, barely making a living, knowing quite well" The Biggest Enemy Is Me", but wasting time working with indicators/algorithms vs. working on themselves.

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Re: How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

 

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Hi, Laguna: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that discipline and patience can be taught. Little kids aren't disciplined or patient but they learn (at least some of them do). Even adults can learn discipline and patience - look at what happens in the armed forces. As for most adults, if they have a good enough motivator, they can learn just about anything if they are given the right information.

 

As to loving trading, I think that people love different things about the experience of trading. I started out loving the "puzzle" aspect of trading. Some love the challenge, some love that they are in control of their time and effort, etc. If traders become successful, I think they love the rewards of trading. So, if you can teach trading successfully, maybe, in the end, you are teaching love of trading.

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Well, if you know Schoool Of Patience And Discipline: let me know. Only professional trading courses devote time to such. Psychology is the biggest aspect of hiring in serious trading firm, not boiler rooms. There is a reason why 95% fail: most come for the love of money, not for the love of the game, while battling their own demons, but refusing to accept responsibility for failures in life.

It is not a graduate school, that most can afford. Will be lovely if there was one, but it will be a pricey and lengthy process with exclusive acceptance only after selective screening.

Sadly, I know traders who have been in the industry for 10+ years, barely making a living, knowing quite well" The Biggest Enemy Is Me", but wasting time working with indicators/algorithms vs. working on themselves.

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Best thing you can do is ask the programmer/website guy straight up why he sells it. If they try to claim to help the world, blah blah blah, stay away. But if you get an honest answer....maybe it is worth a shot?

 

I have a part of myself that wants to save the world. And I think that many people genuinely want to help others. But that whole issue gets very convoluted and messy. If I sold a good system just because am full of love and goodwill for the planet, it might get into the wrong hands, and be used by evil people. So that wouldn't work very well. If I did come up with some great trading system, I'd be better off just programing a bot to trade it, and hire people to monitor it.

 

If I came up with a mediocre system with slightly better than normal returns, then it would make sense to sell it, take people's money from selling it, and hope that it turned into a "self-fulfilling prophesy".

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lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer) big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)/QUOTE]

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd totally agree with you here. I think that it is true that many people drawn to taking fin/math related degrees tend to lack certain qualities essential for trading. However, I don't believe that this is a mutually exclusive occurrence. There are some excellent traders from these backgrounds although I'd definitely be looking for these types of people to also demonstrate a high level of social ability.

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two points....

 

1) at a guess most people here definitely dont have silver spoons.....I once did but mummy ran away with the milkman, but after your rant I am not sure I would PM you for help :)

 

2)....I have employed some people, very talented people in fact.....none of them made good traders, and I went through a thoughtful trading orientated vetting process.

I dont think you can tell who is going to be any good until they are sitting and trading. period.

 

It seems we may be comparing apples to oranges here with regards choosing people who we teach to trade.

 

From your recent posts it seems you are talking about recruiting people for institutional trading whereas I am talking more about the retail traders. My apologies if I missed something here.

 

The sort of people I have helped in the past are traders I have met from trading chatrooms and liverooms for whatever reason. Most were there to improve their game (me included) and almost all have a very good understanding of what is required to make it as a home trader.

 

The last live room I attended was over 18 months ago and run by a very experienced fundi trader and at the time I was still gathering knowledge and experience of every different style of trading that I could. You do meet traders of all levels in these places and many are prepared to help each other (myself included)

 

People soon realise who is trading at what level and things / associations progress naturally.

 

I am now a 110% technical trader I just don't need the complications of fundis whatsover. I try to point my students in that direction but always tell them to learn about every method of trading there is for themselves.

 

Personally I get the measure of potential students very quickly, one guy recently for example asked for help, so I spent a good few live chats and chart sharing showing him support and resistance and trend analysis and I gave him info on a few written articles and websites that would help him, all he ever kept asking me was, had I seen this book or that method. Last time he did that I politely told him my views and asked him to come back in a few years if he still needed help.

 

Regarding psychology I have learned that belief in your trading system / methods, making a plan and trading the plan helps enormously, forget that and the market will make you pay as a reminder.

Edited by xkr1962
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lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer) big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)/QUOTE]

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd totally agree with you here. I think that it is true that many people drawn to taking fin/math related degrees tend to lack certain qualities essential for trading. However, I don't believe that this is a mutually exclusive occurrence. There are some excellent traders from these backgrounds although I'd definitely be looking for these types of people to also demonstrate a high level of social ability.

 

I am not saying they are mutually exclusive at all. Just that in my experience having a lot of degrees is not a good measure of trading prowess and that often the finance mathematical guys want everything to be perfect. At a few interviews I was shown models they had done disproving things etc etc; when asked what relevance this was to making money in the real world and how it related to trading the answers were more about protecting and defending their idea/model rather than answering the question.

One guy came back with the perfect answer - "Probably none, as I dont have experience in the real world trading and this is all theoretical"

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It seems we may be comparing apples to oranges here with regards choosing people who we teach to trade.

 

From your recent posts it seems you are talking about recruiting people for institutional trading whereas I am talking more about the retail traders. My apologies if I missed something here.

 

 

true - there are differences. One where you are employing people is quite a different proposition to just teaching someone as a mentor. If they are paying you in some way then its a completely different proposition again.

While there are different variations in mindset between institutional trading and retail day trading, regards size, I actually think that the basic skills are the same.

My experience comes from employing people to work as market makers, and later as a few traders who would help me expand my trading as I was busy at the time.....not institutional but definitely not just day trading. Most of the feedback I have received as mentioned was from friends who have hired and fired many more people, and the years I have seen people come and go through various trading rooms. Plus I now sit with 14 other people in a room all who are very experienced traders - we more do it for the company now.....and have a policy on no a...holes allowed in the door, which keeps it very social.

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Very provocative thread. Like WorldTrader and Shakespeare, I too host a live trade room, develop trade systems and have taught many people how to trade. I can say a lot on the subject having put in a lot of market time over the three years that I have called live trades (and of course, way more than that trading since the early 90's). The main point that I would like to add though is that I feel a huge responsibility for every trade I call. I know that my clients are hanging on my every word. Like anyone else, I do not know the future nor the outcome of any trade. The fact is, no one does. If it were so easy, it would not be legal because we'd all be printing money.

 

What I have learned (and I had to learn it quick when I first started) is that I have to have a method I can rely on, and then, trade it as intended. Price action, in my opinion, is infinitely challenging. From my point of view, all I can do is put the odds in my favor on every trade and then utilize smart money management techniques. I spent a lot of time doing the necessary work to take 'ownership' of the method I use. I need to be able to believe in it enough to have the confidence to trade it as intended. Getting to that level was hard work. The method I rely on would not work for any other random person who did not do the same work. They could see the results but would run for the exit at the first sign of trouble. Not doing the necessary 'taking ownership' work means you can't know if you are just going through a typical one step back before you launch yourself on the next two steps forward and new equity high. You'd head for the exit right when the winners were about to pile in. You wouldn't even know that you had a great system.

 

Since I did that work, I just need to lean on my system and good things end up happening. And as to the point of this thread, How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/System, and I believe someone said this earlier, you need to make sure the student/buyer is trading your system/course as intended and that's a tall order to require. They too would need to do the necessary work to actually take ownership of the system so that they had the confidence to take the next trade according to the rules. That's not something anyone can just talk themselves into. Not sure how you'd charge for that but you need to factor that into the equation. (The trading group considering how they would run a trade room offering a mentor has some interesting ideas.)

 

ps: :) To answer a couple of the other questions/statements found throughout this thread I offer the following:

 

1) I have learned a lot by hosting a live room and have become a much better trader as a result, responsibility for my trade decisions being one biggie but not the only biggie..

 

2) A reason for offering an effective trade system to the general public vs. keeping it secret is simple. It is good business. Income diversification should be an obvious benefit. I too would insist it was a good one and not some pie in the sky 'sell me the dream not the substance' system. Integrity comes back around as does the alternative.

 

3) Not all bad traders turn to teaching (some are brokers.. lol..) and not all good traders shy away from teaching. Again, it can be a good business, amongst other things. But also, there's always something to learn, even from the beginner. Especially from the beginner, actually. No bad habits to unlearn and a fresh naive perspective can lead to a fresh new idea. It did for me -- more than once.

 

Thanks for the great thread. Mighty Mouse was my childhood hero growing up, by the way. "Here I Come to Save the Dayyyy...." ;)

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Very provocative thread. Like WorldTrader and Shakespeare, I too host a live trade room, develop trade systems and have taught many people how to trade. I can say a lot on the subject having put in a lot of market time over the three years that I have called live trades (and of course, way more than that trading since the early 90's). The main point that I would like to add though is that I feel a huge responsibility for every trade I call. I know that my clients are hanging on my every word. Like anyone else, I do not know the future nor the outcome of any trade. The fact is, no one does. If it were so easy, it would not be legal because we'd all be printing money.

 

What I have learned (and I had to learn it quick when I first started) is that I have to have a method I can rely on, and then, trade it as intended. Price action, in my opinion, is infinitely challenging. From my point of view, all I can do is put the odds in my favor on every trade and then utilize smart money management techniques. I spent a lot of time doing the necessary work to take 'ownership' of the method I use. I need to be able to believe in it enough to have the confidence to trade it as intended. Getting to that level was hard work. The method I rely on would not work for any other random person who did not do the same work. They could see the results but would run for the exit at the first sign of trouble. Not doing the necessary 'taking ownership' work means you can't know if you are just going through a typical one step back before you launch yourself on the next two steps forward and new equity high. You'd head for the exit right when the winners were about to pile in. You wouldn't even know that you had a great system.

 

Since I did that work, I just need to lean on my system and good things end up happening. And as to the point of this thread, How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/System, and I believe someone said this earlier, you need to make sure the student/buyer is trading your system/course as intended and that's a tall order to require. They too would need to do the necessary work to actually take ownership of the system so that they had the confidence to take the next trade according to the rules. That's not something anyone can just talk themselves into. Not sure how you'd charge for that but you need to factor that into the equation. (The trading group considering how they would run a trade room offering a mentor has some interesting ideas.)

 

ps: :) To answer a couple of the other questions/statements found throughout this thread I offer the following:

 

1) I have learned a lot by hosting a live room and have become a much better trader as a result, responsibility for my trade decisions being one biggie but not the only biggie..

 

2) A reason for offering an effective trade system to the general public vs. keeping it secret is simple. It is good business. Income diversification should be an obvious benefit. I too would insist it was a good one and not some pie in the sky 'sell me the dream not the substance' system. Integrity comes back around as does the alternative.

 

3) Not all bad traders turn to teaching (some are brokers.. lol..) and not all good traders shy away from teaching. Again, it can be a good business, amongst other things. But also, there's always something to learn, even from the beginner. Especially from the beginner, actually. No bad habits to unlearn and a fresh naive perspective can lead to a fresh new idea. It did for me -- more than once.

 

Thanks for the great thread. Mighty Mouse was my childhood hero growing up, by the way. "Here I Come to Save the Dayyyy...." ;)

 

If you liked Mighty Mouse, you probably liked Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse too. Great cartoons.

 

I think a lot of guys who have rooms learn that day trading is a grind and hard to make a lot of money if you do not have enough capital. In fact, it's hard to make a lot of money if you do have enough capital. They also love the market so much that they cannot bare to leave it. So, rather than switch careers and un-wire themselves from the market, they sell trade calls, room subscriptions, courses, etc. to earn income because everyone needs income. I do not think there is a thing wrong with someone with experience charging a fee to someone with no or less experience to learn.

 

The problem, as I perceive it, of a lot of these rooms and services, is the lack of honesty. Each seems to be afraid of sharing the true results of his trades, and engages in lies that many detect, but many also deny because they want to believe.

 

The most important lesson a new trader can learn and experienced traders also struggle with is how to lose and the need to lose. If you run a room and you create the illusion that you always win, then you are doing a great disservice to new traders.

 

MM

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I agree with some of your comments MM. Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse were great cartoons.

 

I can't speak on a lot of guys who have rooms but I do believe that trading can be a grind if you let it become one. I run a very tight room, typically trading for about 2 hours and that's it. The tradeplans I use are also very tight and clearly defined. I focus mostly on futures since it gives us a chance to hit our goals on most sessions, often very quickly. We do follow some fx charts too, for those who are interested. The grind factor can and should be mitigated and it is something I remain mindful of. You can't always avoid it. Sometimes you got to slug it out. Other times, like today in Crude Oil Futures, we hit our goals quick and to the point. We were done within 51 minutes.

 

Making money is never easy but if the tradeplans work, it becomes a matter of money management, patience and disciplined professionalism. God save the poor souls who find themselves emotionally attached to the outcome of any trade.

 

No sugar coating allowed. It is what it is. You have to be able to take the good, the bad and the ugly and put it into the bigger context of your overall business of trading. I'm in the middle of my traderoom right now waiting to hit one more trade in the Russell eMini. It's a slow yawner of a session. We just hit a winner. We've had an earlier winner, a couple losses and a breakeven trade. One more winner will give us the positive result we are looking for and a nice end to a white knuckled week of trading. If we do pick up one more winner before our stop time, we would have strung together 5 winning sessions in a row and a breakout to new equity highs. But it has not been an easy road these past few months, that's for sure. Just got triggered into what could be our final trade. I'll post a follow up with some charts to illustrate what we did this morning.

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Ok, well, I just finished my session today and final session of the week, and thought I would just add to this thread with a real life example of trades being called in a real trade room service. It was a rather slow market but patience and discipline, sticking with our daily tradeplan, won the day for us. I have posted two charts. Our Russell eMini trades and our Crude Oil Futures trades.

 

Let me set it up by explaining that each trade is designed to be a two position approach. The first position exits at a predetermined fixed target and the 2nd position stays on with a trailing stop technique. I apologize that I can't show the charts exactly as I would in the traderoom. I'm just not at liberty to share everything in a public forum, unfortunately.

 

I numbered the Russell (TF) trades, 1 - 6. It took 6 trades to hit our goals today. The first trade was a new setup that I've added to the tradeplan recently. It has performed very well but today, as the first trade of the day, it was an 11 tick loser for a -2.2 net. Trade number two was a reversal short trade and our tight trade management technique stopped us out at Break Even. The 3rd trade was the same setup as the first losing trade, allowing us to get back on board the short and it was a winner, going to the middle target of 848.6. The Trailer only picked up 4 ticks.

 

The 4th trade was actually an add on position that got caught up in some noise and had to stop out for a 7 tick loss for a -1.4 net loss on the two positions. The 5th trade got us short again, allowing us to reenter the downtrend. It hit it's full target but we did make a small 3 tick adjustment on the entry, to make the price break the support level so we only got +1.6 on the fixed position. The trailing position got even less, stopping out with only a 1 point gain. Still though, we picked up +2.6 on that one. Finally, we reentered short again on trade number 6. We incorporated a nuanced rule which had us going for the 3rd target this time, picking up +1.4. Again, the trailer couldn't deliver the home run and we exited that one with only +.9. We gained +2.8 points on the session, excluding trade costs. That's what the market wanted to give us today, based on our consistent tradeplan. We ended with 5 winning sessions in a row and a breakout to all time profit levels, over 520 Russell points with this strategy so far.

 

The 2nd chart is much easier to explain. Two Crude Oil trades. The chart tells the story so I'll let whoever is interested take a close look at it.

 

I just thought since this thread asks about charging for trading courses and systems, it might be helpful to actually see a real traderoom, using a course and system that has been offered to the public for real. Perhaps it helps put the question into a more realistic context and gets one closer to thinking about a fair value for such a service.

 

Real trades from a real course from a real trade system called live today in a real trade room. Winners, losers.. It is what it is. Not all sessions end positive. CL was a tough trade this week but ended on a positive note today. Had to 'grind it out.' What is it worth? dunno.. But now it's part of the conversation..

040811_tf.thumb.gif.42d186f004d764f7287f675ad2d272e1.gif

040811_cl.gif.31e777b42d443c05b2b466ccf39343e9.gif

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I for one, tend to agree with those who say "it cant be read or bought". As a newbie trader (less than a year) I can honestly say that my key learnings to date have all come via experience. The books,the online "mentors" and blogs tought me some basic principles, but there is no greater teacher than on the job experience. I fully believe in the theory that if someone truly had a "secret" formula or "proven consistant" strategy, they would use said methods to enrich themselves. It is simply human nature. I am also in the Real Estate game and it is amazing to me that since the market crash, how many self made Real Estate millionaire gurus are now pitching their "no fail systems"

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To date no substantiating evidence for NICAP's assertions has been presented beyond accounts that are anecdotal and documented hear-say or rumor.[7] The Great Los Angeles Air Raid Main article: Battle of Los Angeles "The Great Los Angeles Air Raid" also known as "The Battle of Los Angeles" is the name given by contemporary sources to the imaginary enemy attack and subsequent anti-aircraft artillery barrage which took place from late February 24 to early February 25, 1942 over Los Angeles, California.[13][14] Initially, the target of the aerial barrage was thought to be an attacking force from Japan, but Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox speaking at a press conference shortly afterward called the incident a "false alarm." A small number of modern-day UFOlogists have suggested the reported targets were extraterrestrial spacecraft.[15] When documenting the incident in 1983, the U.S. Office of Air Force History attributed the event to a case of "war nerves" likely triggered by a lost weather balloon and exacerbated by stray flares and shell bursts from adjoining batteries.[16] Ghost rockets Main article: Ghost rockets In 1946 and 1947, numerous reports occurred of so-called ghost rockets appearing over Scandinavian countries, primarily Sweden, which then spread into other European countries.[17] One USAF top secret document from 1948 stated that Swedish Air Force Intelligence informed them that some of their investigators felt that the reported objects were not only real but could not be explained as having earthly origins. Similarly, 20 years later, Greek physicist Dr. Paul Santorini publicly stated that in 1947 he was put in charge of a Greek military investigation into reports of ghost rockets sighted over Greece [ Timothy Good 1988, p 23; Donald Keyhoe, p 142].[17] Again, they quickly concluded the objects were real and not of conventional origin. Santorini claimed their investigation was killed by U.S. scientists and high military officials who had already concluded the objects were extraterrestrial in origin and feared public panic because no defense existed.[18] Roswell Incident Main article: Roswell UFO Incident In 1947, the United States Air Force issued a press release stating that a "flying disk" had been recovered near Roswell, New Mexico. This press release was quickly withdrawn, and officials stated that a weather balloon had been misidentified. The Roswell case quickly faded even from the attention of most UFOlogists until the 1970s. Speculation persisted despite the official denial that an alien spacecraft crashed near Roswell. For example, retired Brigadier General Arthur E. Exon, former commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, told researchers Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt[19] that a spacecraft had crashed, alien bodies were recovered, and the event was covered up by the U.S. government. Exon further claimed he was aware of a very secretive UFO controlling committee made up primarily of very high-ranking military officers and intelligence people. His nickname for this group was "The Unholy Thirteen" (see also Majestic 12).[20] In the 1990s, the US military published two reports disclosing the true nature of the crashed aircraft: a surveillance balloon from Project Mogul. Nevertheless, the Roswell incident continues to be of interest to the media, and conspiracy theories surrounding the event persist. Roswell has been described as "the world's most famous, most exhaustively investigated and most thoroughly debunked UFO claim".[21] Mantell Incident Main article: Mantell UFO incident In 1948, Air Force pilot Thomas Mantell was killed in a crash while pursuing what he described as "a metallic object...of tremendous size".[22]Project Blue Book concluded that Mantell had lost control of his aircraft while chasing a then-classified Skyhook balloon.[23] Some UFOlogists reject Bluebook's conclusion because of its initial suggestion that Mantell was chasing "Venus or a comet".[24] Project Sign Main article: Project Sign The U.S. Air Force may have planted the seeds of UFO conspiracy theories with Project Sign (established 1947) (which became Project Grudge and Project Blue Book). Edward J. Ruppelt, the first director of Blue Book, characterized the Air Force's public behavior regarding UFOs as "schizophrenic": alternately open and transparent, then secretive and dismissive. Ruppelt also revealed that in mid-1948, Project Sign issued a top secret Estimate of the Situation concluding that the flying saucers were not only real but probably extraterrestrial in origin. According to Ruppelt, the Estimate was ordered destroyed by Air Force Chief of Staff Hoyt Vandenberg.[11] Project Sign's final report, published in early 1949, stated that while some UFOs appeared to represent actual aircraft, data were insufficient to determine their origin.[25] Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Some UFOlogists have claimed the existence of a U.S. government group called the "Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit" allegedly established by General Douglas MacArthur that was "supposedly formed to investigate crashed and retrieved flying saucers".[26] 1950s The 1950s saw an increase in both governmental and civilian investigative efforts and reports of public disinformation and suppression of evidence. The UK Ministry of Defence’s UFO Project has its roots in a study commissioned in 1950 by the MOD’s then Chief Scientific Adviser, the great radar scientist Sir Henry Tizard. As a result of his insistence that UFO sightings should not be dismissed without some form of proper scientific study, the Department set up the Flying Saucer Working Party (or FSWP).[27] In August 1950, Montanan baseball manager Nicholas Mariana filmed several UFOs with his color 16mm camera. Project Blue Book was called in and, after inspecting the film, Mariana claimed it was returned to him with critical footage removed, clearly showing the objects as disc-shaped. The incident sparked nationwide media attention. Frank Scully's 1950 Behind the Flying Saucers suggested that the U.S. government had recovered a crashed flying saucer and its dead occupants near Aztec, New Mexico, in 1948. It was later revealed that Scully had been the victim of a prank by "two veteran confidence artists".[28] Donald Keyhoe was a retired U.S. Marine who wrote a series of popular books and magazine articles that were very influential in shaping public opinion, arguing that UFOs were indeed real and that the U.S. government was suppressing UFO evidence. Keyhoe's first article on the subject came out in True magazine, January 1950, and was a national sensation. His first book, Flying Saucers Are Real also came out in 1950, about the same time as Frank Scully's book, and was a bestseller. In 1956, Keyhoe helped establish NICAP, a powerful civilian UFO investigating group with many inside sources. Keyhoe became its director and continued his attacks on the Air Force. Other contemporary critics also charged that the United States Air Force was perpetrating a cover-up with its Project Blue Book. Canadian radio engineer Wilbert B. Smith, who worked for the Canadian Department of Transport, was interested in flying saucer propulsion technology and wondered if the assertions in the just-published Scully and Keyhoe books were factual. In September 1950, he had the Canadian embassy in Washington D.C. arrange contact with U.S. officials to try to discover the truth of the matter. Smith was briefed by Dr. Robert Sarbacher, a physicist and consultant to the Defense Department's Research and Development Board. Other correspondence, having to do with Keyhoe needing to get clearance to publish another article on Smith's theories of UFO propulsion, indicated that Bush and his group were operating out of the Research and Development Board.[29] Smith then briefed superiors in the Canadian government, leading to the establishment of Project Magnet, a small Canadian government UFO research effort. Canadian documents and Smith's private papers were uncovered in the late 1970s, and by 1984, other alleged documents emerged claiming the existence of a highly secret UFO oversight committee of scientists and military people called Majestic 12, again naming Vannevar Bush. Sarbacher was also interviewed in the 1980s and corroborated the information in Smith's memos and correspondence. Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Smith granted public interviews, and among other things stated that he had been lent crashed UFO material for analysis by a highly secret U.S. government group which he wouldn't name.[30] A few weeks after the Robertson Panel, the Air Force issued Regulation 200-2, ordering air base officers to publicly discuss UFO incidents only if they were judged to have been solved, and to classify all the unsolved cases to keep them out of the public eye. In addition, UFO investigative duties started to be taken on by the newly formed 4602nd Air Intelligence Squadron (AISS) of the Air Defense Command. The 4602nd AISS was tasked with investigating only the most important UFO cases having intelligence or national security implications. These were deliberately siphoned away from Blue Book, leaving Blue Book to deal with the more trivial reports. [31] In 1954 an automatic working station for UFO monitoring was installed at Shirley's Bay near Ottawa in Canada. After this station detected the first suspicious event, all data gained by this station was classified as secret, although the cameras of the monitoring station could not make any pictures because of fog.[32] 1956 saw the publication of Gray Barker's They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers, the book which publicized the idea of sinister Men in Black who appear to UFO witnesses and warn them to keep quiet. There has been continued speculation that the men in black are government agents who harass and threaten UFO witnesses. Also in 1956, the group Foundation for Earth-Space Relations, led by film producer Tzadi Sophit, tested their own flying saucer outside the Long Island town of Ridge Landing. It is speculated in Robertson's The Long Island Saucer that an FBI cover-up silenced witnesses.[33] On January 22, 1958, when Donald Keyhoe appeared on CBS television, his statements on UFOs were censored by the Air Force. During the show when Keyhoe tried to depart from the censored script to "reveal something that has never been disclosed before", CBS cut the sound, later stating Keyhoe was about to violate "predetermined security standards" and about to say something he wasn't "authorized to release". What Keyhoe was about to reveal were four publicly unknown military studies concluding UFOs were interplanetary including the 1948 Project Sign Estimate of the Situation and a 1952 Project Blue Book engineering analysis of UFO motion presented at the Robertson Panel. [34] Astronaut Gordon Cooper reported suppression of a flying saucer movie filmed in high clarity by two Edwards AFB range photographers on May 3, 1957. Cooper said he viewed developed negatives of the object, clearly showing a dish-like object with a dome on top and something like holes or ports in the dome. When later interviewed by James McDonald, the photographers and another witness confirmed the story. Cooper said military authorities then picked up the film and neither he nor the photographers ever heard what happened to it. The incident was also reported in a few newspapers, such as the Los Angeles Times. The official explanation was that the photographers had filmed a weather balloon distorted by hot desert air.[35] 1960s Throughout much of the 1960s, atmospheric physicist James E. McDonald suggested—via lectures, articles and letters—that the U.S. Government was mishandling evidence that would support the extraterrestrial hypothesis.[36] 1970s Jerome Clark comments that many UFO conspiracy theory tales "can be traced to a mock documentary Alternative 3, broadcast on British television on June 20, 1977 (but intended for April Fools' Day), and subsequently turned into a paperback book."[37] Holloman Air Force Base Clark cites a 1973 encounter as perhaps the earliest suggestion that the U.S. government was involved with ETs. That year, Robert Emenegger and Allan Sandler of Los Angeles, California were in contact with officials at Norton Air Force Base in order to make a documentary film. Emenegger and Sandler report that Air Force Officials (including Paul Shartle) suggested incorporating UFO information in the documentary, including as its centerpiece genuine footage of a 1971 UFO landing at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico. Furthermore, says Emenegger, he was given a tour of Holloman AFB and was shown where officials conferred with Extraterrestrial Biological Entities (EBEs). This was supposedly not the first time the U.S. had met these aliens, as Emenegger reported that his U.S. military sources had "been monitoring signals from an alien group with which they were unfamiliar, and did their ET guests know anything about them? The ETs said no" [38] The documentary was released in 1974 as UFO's: Past, Present and Future (narrated by Rod Serling) containing only a few seconds of the Holloman UFO footage, the remainder of the landing depicted with illustrations and re-enactments. In 1988, Shartle said that the film in question was genuine, and that he had seen it several times. In 1976 a televised documentary report UFOS: It Has Begun[39] written by Robert Emenegger was presented by Rod Serling, Burgess Meredith and José Ferrer. Some sequences were recreated based upon the statements of eyewitness observers, together with the findings and conclusions of governmental civil and military investigations. The documentary uses a hypothetical UFO landing at Holloman AFB as a backdrop. Paul Bennewitz The late 1970s also saw the beginning of controversy centered on Paul Bennewitz of Albuquerque, New Mexico.[40] 1980s MJ-12 The so-called Majestic 12 documents surfaced in 1982, suggesting that there was secret, high-level U.S. government interest in UFOs dating to the 1940s. Upon examination, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) declared the documents to be "completely bogus", and many ufologists consider them to be an elaborate hoax.[41][42] Linda Moulton Howe Linda Moulton Howe is an advocate of conspiracy theories that cattle mutilations are of extraterrestrial origin and speculations that the U.S. government is involved with aliens.[43][44][45][46] Milton William Cooper In the 1980s, Milton William Cooper achieved a degree of prominence due to his conspiratorial writings.[47] Bob Lazar In November 1989, Bob Lazar appeared in a special interview with investigative reporter George Knapp on Las Vegas TV station KLAS to discuss his alleged employment at S-4.[48] In his interview with Knapp, Lazar said he first thought the saucers were secret, terrestrial aircraft, whose test flights must have been responsible for many UFO reports. Gradually, on closer examination and from having been shown multiple briefing documents, Lazar came to the conclusion that the discs must have been of extraterrestrial origin. He claims that they use moscovium, an element that decays in a fraction of a second, to warp space, and that “Grey” aliens from the Zeta Reticuli star system. According to the Los Angeles Times, he never obtained the degrees he claims to hold from MIT and Caltech.[49][50] UFO Cover-Up?: Live! On October 14, 1988, actor Mike Farrell hosted U.S. UFO Cover-Up: Live!, a two-hour television special "focusing on the government's handling of information regarding UFOs" and "whether there has been any suppression of evidence supporting the existence of UFOs".[51] July 1989 MUFON Convention The Mutual UFO Network held their 1989 annual convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, on July 1, 1989. The Ufologist Bill Moore was scheduled as the main speaker, and he refused to submit his paper for review prior to the convention, and also announced that he would not answer any follow-up questions as was common practice. Unlike most of the convention's attendees, Moore did not stay at the same hotel that was hosting the convention. When he spoke, Moore said that he and others had been part of an elaborate, long-term disinformation campaign begun primarily to discredit Paul Bennewitz: "My role in the affair ... was primarily that of a freelancer providing information on Paul's (Bennewitz) current thinking and activities".[52] Air Force Sergeant Richard C. Doty was also involved, said Moore, though Moore thought Doty was "simply a pawn in a much larger game, as was I."[52] One of their goals, Moore said, was to disseminate information and watch as it was passed from person to person in order to study information channels. Moore said that he "was in a rather unique position" in the disinformation campaign: "judging by the positions of the people I knew to be directly involved in it, [the disinformation] definitely had something to do with national security. There was no way I was going to allow the opportunity to pass me by ... I would play the disinformation game, get my hands dirty just often enough to lead those directing the process into believing I was doing what they wanted me to do, and all the while continuing to burrow my way into the matrix so as to learn as much as possible about who was directing it and why."[53] Once he finished the speech, Moore immediately left the hotel and Las Vegas that same night. Moore's claims sent shock waves through the small, tight-knit UFO community[citation needed], which remains divided as to the reliability of his assertions. 1990s On November 24, 1992, a UFO reportedly crashed in Southaven Park, Shirley, New York.[54] John Ford, a Long Island MUFON researcher, investigated the crash. Four years later, on June 12, 1996, Ford was arrested and charged with plotting to poison several local politicians by sneaking radium in their toothpaste. On advice of counsel Ford pleaded insanity and was committed to the Mid Hudson Psychiatric Center. Critics say the charges are a frame-up. The Branton Files have circulated on the internet at least since the mid-1990s. They essentially recirculate the information presented above, with many asides from "Branton", the document's editor. Philip Schneider of the patriot movement, an engineer and geologist formerly working for the U.S. government, made a few appearances at UFO conventions in the 1990s, espousing essentially a new version of the theories mentioned above. He claimed to have played a role in the construction of Deep Underground Military Bases (DUMBs) across the United States, and as a result he said that he had been exposed to classified information of various sorts as well as having personal experiences with EBEs. He claimed to have survived the Dulce Base catastrophe and decided to tell his tale.[55] He died by suicide on January 17, 1996, after a series of lectures given in late 1995 on topics including the Black Budget and underground alien bases. Others believe that Schneider did not take his own life and that he was actually murdered by the government.[56] In 1999 a group in France published a study, "UFOs and Defense: What Must We Be Prepared For?" Among other topics, the study concluded that the United States government has withheld valuable evidence.[57] 2000s 2003 saw the publication of Alien Encounters (ISBN 1-57821-205-7), by Chuck Missler and Mark Eastman, which primarily re-stated the notions presented above (especially Cooper's) and presents them as fact. MoD secret files Eight files from 1978 to 1987 on UFO sightings were first released on May 14, 2008, to the National Archives' website by the British Ministry of Defence. Two hundred files were set to be made public by 2012. The files are correspondence from the public sent to government officials, such as the MoD and Margaret Thatcher. The information can be downloaded.[58] Copies of Lt. Col. Halt's letter regarding the sighting at RAF Woodbridge (see above[where?]) to the U.K. Ministry of Defence were routinely released (without additional comment) by the USA's base public affairs staff throughout the 1980s until the base closed. The MoD released the files due to requests under the Freedom of Information Act.[59] The files included, among other things, alien craft flying over Liverpool and Waterloo Bridge in London.[60] Disclosure In the early 2000s, the concept of "disclosure" became increasingly popular in the UFO conspiracy community: that the government had classified and withheld information on alien contact and full disclosure was needed, and was pursued by activist lobbying groups. In 1993, Steven M. Greer founded the Disclosure Project to promote the concept. In May 2001, Greer held a press conference at the National Press Club in D.C that demanded Congress hold hearings on "secret U.S. involvement with UFOs and extraterrestrials".[61][62][63] It was described by an attending BBC reporter as "the strangest ever news conference hosted by Washington's August National Press Club."[64] The Disclosure Project's claims were met with by derision by skeptics and spokespeople for the U. S. Air Force.[65][66] In 2013, the production company CHD2, LLC[67] held a "Citizen Hearing on Disclosure" at the National Press Club in D.C from 29 April to 3 May 2013. The group paid former U.S. Senator Mike Gravel and former Representatives Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Roscoe Bartlett, Merrill Cook, Darlene Hooley, and Lynn Woolsey $20,000 each to participate, and to preside over panels of academics and former government and military officials discussing UFOs and extraterrestrials.[68] Other such groups include Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, founded in 1977. Allegations of evidence suppression Allegations of suppression of UFO related evidence have persisted for many decades. Some conspiracy theories also claim that some governments might have removed and/or destroyed/suppressed physical evidence; some examples follow. On July 7, 1947, William Rhodes photographed an unusual object over Phoenix, Arizona.[69] The photos appeared in a Phoenix newspaper and a few other papers. Angoldmann sachs are run by sociopathic hypocrite lying greedy slimy jew cunts Army Air Force intelligence officer and an FBI agent interviewed Rhodes on August 29 and convinced him to surrender the negatives, which he did the next day. He was informed he wouldn't be getting them back, but later he tried, unsuccessfully, to retrieve them.[70][71] The photos were analyzed and subsequently appeared in some classified Air Force UFO intelligence reports. (Randle, 34–45, full account)[19] A June 27, 1950, movie of a "flying disk" over Louisville, Kentucky, taken by a Louisville Courier-Journal photographer, had the USAF Directors of counterintelligence (AFOSI) and intelligence discussing in memos how to best obtain the movie and interview the photographer without revealing Air Force interest. One memo suggested the FBI be used, then precluded the FBI getting involved. Another memo said "it would be nice if OSI could arrange to secure a copy of the film in some covert manner," but if that wasn't feasible, one of the Air Force scientists might have to negotiate directly with the newspaper.[72][73] In a recent interview, the photographer confirmed meeting with military intelligence and still having the film in his possession until then, but refused to say what happened to the film after that.[74] In another 1950 movie incident from Montana, Nicholas Mariana filmed some unusual aerial objects and eventually turned the film over to the U.S. Air Force, but insisted that the first part of the film, clearly showing the objects as spinning discs, had been removed when it was returned to him.[75] According to some conspiracy theorists, during the military investigation of green fireballs in New Mexico, UFOs were photographed by a tracking camera over White Sands Proving Grounds on April 27, 1949. They claim that the final report in 1951 on the green fireball investigation claimed there was insufficient data to determine anything. Conspiracy theorists claim that documents later uncovered by Dr. Bruce Maccabee indicate that triangulation was accomplished. The conspiracy theorists also claim that the data reduction and photographs showed four objects about 30 feet in diameter flying in formation at high speed at an altitude of about 30 miles. According to conspiracy theorists, Maccabee says this result was apparently suppressed from the final report.[76] On January 22, 1958, when NICAP director Donald Keyhoe appeared on CBS television, his statements on UFOs were censored by the Air Force. During the show when Keyhoe tried to depart from the censored script to "reveal something that has never been disclosed before," CBS cut the sound, later stating Keyhoe was about to violate "predetermined security standards" and about to say something he wasn't "authorized to release." Conspiracy theorists claim that what Keyhoe was about to reveal were four publicly unknown military studies concluding UFOs were interplanetary (including the 1948 Project Sign Estimate of the Situation and Blue Book's 1952 engineering analysis of UFO motion). (Good, 286–287; Dolan 293–295)[17][77] A March 1, 1967 memo directed to all USAF divisions, from USAF Lt. General Hewitt Wheless, Assistant Vice Chief of Staff, stated that unverified information indicated that unknown individuals, impersonating USAF officers and other military personnel, had been harassing civilian UFO witnesses, warning them not to talk, and also confiscating film, referring specifically to the Heflin incident. AFOSI was to be notified if any personnel were to become aware of any other incidents. (Document in Fawcett & Greenwood, 236.)[78] John Callahan, former Division Chief of the Accidents and Investigations Branch of the FAA, Washington D.C., also a Disclosure Project witness, said that following the Japan Air Lines flight 1628 incident that involved a giant UFO over Alaska, recorded by air and ground radar, the FAA conducted an investigation. Callahan held a briefing a few days later for President Reagan's Scientific Study Group, the FBI, and CIA. After the briefing, one of the CIA agents told everybody they "were never there and this never happened," adding they were fearful of public panic.[79] According to one theory related to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the CIA killed Kennedy in order to prevent him from leaking information to the Soviet Union about a covert program to reverse-engineer alien technology (i.e., Majestic 12).[80] Nick Cook, an aviation investigative journalist for Jane's Information Group and researcher of Billion Dollar Secret[81] and author of The Hunt for Zero Point[82] claims to have uncovered documentary evidence that top-secret US Defense Industry technology has been developed by government-backed Defense Industry programs, beginning in the 1940s using research conducted by Nazi scientists during WWII and recovered by Allied Military Intelligence, then taken to the U.S. and developed further with the collaboration of the same former German scientists at top-secret facilities established at White Sands, New Mexico, and later at Area 51, allegedly resulting in production of real-world prototype operational supersonic craft actually tested and used in clandestine military exercises, with other developments incorporated later into spy aircraft tasked with overflying hostile countries: the UFO story that evidence of alien technology is being suppressed and removed or destroyed was generated and then promoted by the CIA, beginning 1947, as false-lead disinformation to cover it all up for the sake of National Security, particularly during the Cold War, at a time when (his investigations found) the Soviet Union too was developing its own top-secret high-tech UFO craft. Cook's conclusions, alleging suppression of evidence of advanced human technology instead of alien, together with what he presents as declassified top-secret documents and blueprints, and his interviews of various experts (some of doubtful reliability), was developed and broadcast as a feature documentary on British television in 2005 as "UFOs: The Secret Evidence" and in the US in 2006 as a two-part episode on the History Channel's UFO Files, retitled "An Alien History of Planet Earth", with an added introduction by actor William Shatner. The History Channel program teaser promised "...a look at rumors of classified military aircraft incorporating alien technology into their designs." In 1993, Steven M. Greer founded the Disclosure project to promote the concept of disclosing allegedly suppressed evidence of extraterrestrials. In May 2001, Greer held a press conference at the National Press Club in D.C that featured "20 retired Air Force, Federal Aviation Administration and intelligence officers" who demanded that Congress begin hearings on "secret U.S. involvement with UFOs and extraterrestrials"[61][62][63] In 2013, Sen. Mike Gravel claimed that the government was suppressing evidence of extraterrestrials.[83] Benjamin Radford has pointed out how unlikely such suppression of evidence is given that "[t]he UFO coverup conspiracy would have to span decades, cross international borders, and transcend political administrations" and that "all of the world's governments, in perpetuity, regardless of which political party is in power and even among enemies, [would] have colluded to continue the coverup."[84] In popular fiction In fiction and Sci reality, television programs (like The X-Files, Stargate, and Project Blue Book), films (such as Men in Black and Independence Day), and any number of novels have featured elements of UFO conspiracy theories. Fictionalized elements may include the government's sinister operatives from the men in black, the military bases known as Area 51, RAF Rudloe Manor or Porton Down, a rumored crash site in Roswell, New Mexico, the Rendlesham Forest Incident, a political committee dubbed "Majestic 12", or the successor of the UK Ministry of Defence's Flying Saucer Working Party (FSWP).[85] The novel The Doomsday Conspiracy by Sidney Sheldon includes a UFO conspiracy in its plot.[86] See also Bielefeld Conspiracy Brookings Report Crop circle Flying Saucers Kecksburg UFO incident List of major UFO sightings Magazines of anomalous phenomena New World Order (conspiracy) Storm Area 51 The Disclosure Project Ummo United States gravity control propulsion research (1955–1974) Notes and references   Paul Harris: Cold War hysteria sparked UFO obsession, study finds   Genoni Jr., Thomas C., Peddling the Paranormal: Late-Night Radio's Art Bell, Skeptical Briefs, Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, volume 8, issue #1, March 1998 http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/peddling_the_paranormal_late-night_radios_art_bell/   John F. Schuessler (January 2000). "Public Opinion Surveys and Unidentified Flying Objects 50+ years of Sampling Public Opinions". Mutual UFO Network. Archived from the original on October 16, 2007.   David, Leonard. "Gordon Cooper Touts New Book Leap of Faith". Archived from the original on 27 July 2010. Retrieved 27 December 2016.   Martin, Robert Scott. "Gordon Cooper: No Mercury UFO". Archived from the original on 27 March 2010. Retrieved 27 December 2016.   Dunning, Brian. "Skeptoid #218: The Astronauts and the Aliens". Skeptoid. Retrieved 27 December 2016.   CSI | UFOs and Aliens in Space   Michael Barkun (15 August 2013). Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. University of California Press. pp. 85–. ISBN 978-0-520-95652-0.   Barna William Donovan (20 July 2011). Conspiracy Films: A Tour of Dark Places in the American Conscious. McFarland. pp. 50–. ISBN 978-0-7864-8615-1.   Joe Nickell (24 October 2001). Real-Life X-Files: Investigating the Paranormal. University Press of Kentucky. pp. 120–. ISBN 0-8131-7083-4.   Ruppelt: Roswell UFO Cover   The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, Doubleday Books   Caughey, John; Caughey, LaRee (1977). Los Angeles: biography of a city. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-03410-5.   Farley, John E. (1998). Earthquake fears, predictions, and preparations in mid-America. Southern Illinois University Press. ISBN 978-0-8093-2201-5. Retrieved May 17, 2010.   Documents Dated Prior to 1948 The Majestic Documents   San Francisco virtual museum article   Ghost Rockets: Timothy Good, Above Top Secret, 1988, William Morrow & Co., ISBN 0-688-09202-0 Timothy Good, Need to Know: UFOs, the Military, and Intelligence, 2007, Pegasus Books, ISBN 978-1-933648-38-5 Donald Keyhoe, Aliens From Space, 1973, Doubleday & Co., ISBN 0-385-06751-8 Jenny Randles, UFO Retrievals: The Recovery of Alien Spacecraft, 1985, Blandford Press, ISBN 0-7137-2493-5 Reuben Stone, Alien Worlds, 1993, Longmeadow Press, ISBN 0-681-45414-8 (Contains photo of search for ghost rocket seen crashing in Lake Kölmjärv)   Ghost Rockets: list of External links to sources.   Roswell: Randle and Schmitt Kevin Randle & Donald Schmitt, UFO Crash at Roswell, 1991; The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, 1994 see also Kouff, Kal (August 1997). "What Really Happened at Roswell". Skeptical Inquirer. 21 (4). Retrieved February 5, 2013.   "Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon".   Gildenberg, B.D. (2003). "A Roswell requiem". Skeptic. 10 (1): 60.   Clark, Jerome, The UFO Book: Encyclopedia of the Extraterrestrial, Visible Ink, 1998 ISBN 978-1-57859-029-2   Wenz, John. "11 UFO Photos Unearthed From the Air Force's Vaults". Popular Mechanics Magazine. Hearst Media. Retrieved 30 November 2018.   Kirkpatrick, Nick; Moyer, Justin Wm. "Two decades of mysterious Air Force UFO files now available online". Washington Post. Washington Post. Retrieved 30 November 2018.   Blum, Howard, Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials. Simon and Schuster, 1990   Stephen J. Spignesi. The Ufo Book of Lists. Citadel Press; 2000. ISBN 978-0-8065-2109-1. p. 24–.   Nick Pope, UFOs: An Official History.   J. P. Cahn exposé, True Magazine, 1952.   Roswell Proof: Smith Papers   Presidential UFO.com Archived 2009-04-08 at the Wayback Machine Roswell Proof.com   Dolan, Richard M. UFOS and the national security state : chronology of a cover-up 1941-1973. Hampton Roads Pub. Co. pp. 210-211. ISBN 978-1571743176.   Canada's UFOs, Shirley's Bay, Ontario, Project Magnet, 1952, Library and Archives of Canada.   "Long Island's UFO plot Trial: A flying saucer true believer must answer charges that he intended to kill three people he believed were covering up alien landings". Baltimore Sun. Retrieved 2018-06-04.   Dolan, Richard M. UFOS and the national security state : chronology of a cover-up 1941-1973. Hampton Roads Pub. Co. pp. 293-295. ISBN 978-1571743176.   "McDonald, 1968 Congressional testimony, Case 41" (PDF). Archived from the original (PDF) on 2006-06-24.   see James E. McDonald: External links.   Clark The UFO Book, p. 213–14   Clark The UFO Book, p. 144   UFOS: It Has Begun, Producer Allan F. Sandler, Director Ray Rivas, Writer Robert Emenegger, 1976, Featuring Rod Serling, Special Appearances by José Ferrer and Burgess Meredith – VCI Sci-Fi DVD Double Feature: UFOs: It Has Begun / UFO Syndrome, Distributed by VCI Entertainment http://www.vcient.com   see Paul Bennewitz: References and External Links.   Donovan, Barna William (2011-07-20). Conspiracy Films: A Tour of Dark Places in the American Conscious. McFarland. pp. 107–. ISBN 9780786486151. Retrieved 17 September 2014.   "FBI – Majestic 12 Part 1 of 1". An FBI archive containing details of "Majestic 12". Retrieved April 10, 2011.   Peter Knight (2003). Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. pp. 125–. ISBN 978-1-57607-812-9. Retrieved 18 October 2012.   Michael Barkun (4 May 2006). A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. University of California Press. pp. 86–. ISBN 978-0-520-24812-0. Retrieved 18 October 2012.   Nancy Lusignan, Editor (1 September 1998). 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