Trading Without a Chart

[evroom1 10]

I have run into a guy who claims to trade without the use of a chart. Just pure price. On only one axis. From this he claims to be able to see support and resistance from which he sets his trades.

My question is " Is this even Possible ?" This method is more than just tape reading or some Gann method I believe.

Can anyone shed any light on the subject.

[brownsfan019 17]

He should offer a real-time trial so you can see if it in action, so give it a try and see what you think. Just make sure he's doing it in REAL-TIME. After the fact stuff is useless.

 

If no trial, then run far away.

 

If not done in real-time, run far away.

[evroom1 10]

Thanks Mr Browns At the moment he is doing it in real time and not charging a thing. But you know how that can sometimes go. He never gives all the details of the setup but the calls are good and work 90 % of the time. I can trade so I can cross check the entry in real time. I also can tell what method a good trader is using by about the third call. This guy is different in that he claims no charts no nothing just the use of a dome. His numbers are always sharper than mine and way better than the average trader pivots, support and resistance, etc. In fact you probably have to be a good trader to even understand what he is doing. I have seen a [very] few trade without a chart with the numbers transfered to an excel sheet and they had nowhere near the results of this guy.

Please do not write off the thread. I have been scamed enought during my trading life this not the same.

[brownsfan019 17]

Take the trial and report back to us.

[JEHs 10]

It's certainly possible. Before charts were available and computers were everywhere, the tape readers did it all with just price printed out on the tape.

Jesse Livermore didn't use charts.

[daedalus 10]

Tape reading is very possible. Hubert from TTM used to post up videos on it. In fact Soultrader has a few videos on this site about tape reading.

 

My problem was I could never quite get exactly how to apply it and there really is not a lot of information on the internet about it (believe me i've looked and it lead me to the videos i've already mentioned).

 

The other thing is that I feel its going to become a "dead art" very soon. With all the new flash orders and lot breakups and even the change in CME reporting of contract volume the patterns and clues just aren't there like they used to be and I feel this trend will only continue and worsen.

[AgeKay 10]

It's certainly possible. I can trade without a chart. You can learn how to do it if you search for "".

 

Thanks Mr Browns At the moment he is doing it in real time and not charging a thing. But you know how that can sometimes go. He never gives all the details of the setup but the calls are good and work 90 % of the time. I can trade so I can cross check the entry in real time. I also can tell what method a good trader is using by about the third call. This guy is different in that he claims no charts no nothing just the use of a dome. His numbers are always sharper than mine and way better than the average trader pivots, support and resistance, etc. In fact you probably have to be a good trader to even understand what he is doing. I have seen a [very] few trade without a chart with the numbers transfered to an excel sheet and they had nowhere near the results of this guy.

Please do not write off the thread. I have been scamed enought during my trading life this not the same.

 

Seems to me that you are just waiting for some one to ask you who that guy is so you can promote his services. If that's what your after, then be aware that you'll be banned quickly.

Edited May 15, 2010 by RonW
Spam

[evroom1 10]

LOL no I am not looking to promote anyone's service. But it was hard not to notice that in your reply you did. I guess do as I say not as I do. Believe it or not I am just looking for information on how to do it without paying to fine out it is not possible for day trading. I know it is possible for swing and longer term trading. All the pre computer traders did it. Day trading is another story.

 

Thanks for letting me know the rules.

[brownsfan019 17]

It's certainly possible. I can trade without a chart. You can learn how to do it if you search for "no BS day trading".

 

 

 

Seems to me that you are just waiting for some one to ask you who that guy is so you can promote his services. If that's what your after, then be aware that you'll be banned quickly.

 

Are you really promoting a garbage website ak?

[wjrusnak 10]

I have run into a guy who claims to trade without the use of a chart. Just pure price. On only one axis. From this he claims to be able to see support and resistance from which he sets his trades.

My question is " Is this even Possible ?" This method is more than just tape reading or some Gann method I believe.

Can anyone shed any light on the subject.

 

Possible yes, but why do all that work? The point of a chart is to graphically display what price did over a certain time, so that you don't have to remember! If you decide to try this, you probably don't want to be at a site like Traders Laboratory, which emphasizes a lot on price action (candlesticks, support/resistance, momentum, indicators, moving-averages, automated trading, etc.), as all of them highly depend on a chart.

[evroom1 10]

I beg to differ. I am there to learn how to trade above the norm. And if I can get others to join in the quest so much the better. Half the things you listed do not work. They never will as they are lagging incidators. It is good to know what is on the edge if only so we do not get scammed. I have spend over 10 K on this that and the next best thing, only to find I had to teach myself. I would have been much better off in a place like this asking traders what works and what does not. Nial Fuller wrote something on this forum that was very helpful for example.

Nope this the right place. With a little luck I will find a wise trader or another piece of the puzzle

[wjrusnak 10]

I beg to differ. I am there to learn how to trade above the norm. And if I can get others to join in the quest so much the better. Half the things you listed do not work. They never will as they are lagging incidators. It is good to know what is on the edge if only so we do not get scammed. I have spend over 10 K on this that and the next best thing, only to find I had to teach myself. I would have been much better off in a place like this asking traders what works and what does not. Nial Fuller wrote something on this forum that was very helpful for example.

Nope this the right place. With a little luck I will find a wise trader or another piece of the puzzle

 

I must be reading this wrong or something. You are where to learn how to trade above the norm? Traders Lab... because well that's here not there. And I see Nial Fuller... um... you're welcome brownsfan. I think we found his agenda.

 

EDIT: To Add: Many professionals make a living off "lagging" indicators. Don't become an idealist

Edited May 14, 2010 by wjrusnak
To Add: Many professionals make a living off "lagging" indicators. Don't become an idealist

[evroom1 10]

Last edited by wjrusnak; Today at 05:52 PM. Reason: To Add: Many professionals make a living off "lagging" indicators. Don't become an idealist

 

 

LOL

I can see you are a "professional"

 

I bow to your skill at positive communication

[BlowFish 10]

Arguably most things are a lagging indicator. Even time and sales shows what has already ticked and the DOM shows what has already been offered. If you change 'lagging indicator to 'relies on historical data' (obviously this is a different proposition but not a million miles away). Then even methods like S/R or geometric methods (trend lines, pitch forks, measured moves, wolfe etc) rely on historical prices to project lines forwards in time that anticipate where price might react.

 

I fail to see what some ones communication skills has to do with there ability to trade, or even the veracity of the information they present. A logical fallacy to be sure. If you seek the 'truth' it will be helpful not to make such errors. Sure take advice but apply rigorous research to prove or disprove for oneself. (of course that does not help if you need to stump up hard earned $$$ to start with )

 

Finally if you like Nials stuff it seems pretty inexpensive to me. Having said that you can find pretty much all you could ever need on price action in the public domain, of course it will require more work on your part sifting the wheat from the chaff.

[AgeKay 10]

Are you really promoting a garbage website ak?

 

It's not a garbage website. It's an eBook + Videos and I've read/watched it several times and I like it. And I was not promoting it, I only pointed out where the OP can find more information on this topic because I don't know of any other one that is not completely bullshit and I've literally read everything.

 

BlowFish has also read it and he can probably confirm that it's different from the usual crap out there.

[BlowFish 10]

Yeah I quite liked it too. Not really much concise information about reading the DOM out there.Of course it depends on what your objectives are. If you are not interested in scalping a few ticks or in gauging order flow (again in the tick to tick time frame) then it might not be of interest.

[Jumper 10]

This sort of stuff interests me very much. For me, the fact that not many people really know how to do it inspires me even more to learn it, even if it takes months to do it all myself, I believe there is something in this. Pretty much all of the best traders I know do this one way or another, reading order flow, they all keep a very close eye on the DOM. I think T&S can help too, Seeing where the volume is happening, normally watching a chart you see a volume spike, but don't know whether its on the bid or ask or how big the order was, plus charts, although I do keep a few up, I think it hinders me sometimes as I get sucked into the typical "patterns" that are in the TA 101 books, the ones that 90% of traders use and lose with.

 

I'm not real fussed who agrees or disagrees with me on this, its just something I feel, and something I want to learn, its trading and supply and demand in its purest form, I think its only a matter of time before you start to see things, the games that go on etc. if you keep watching it. If you're watching every single transaction go through, bots or algos or whatever they may be, its still going to be recorded, the speed of the tape, different momentum changes, big lots, lots of fast small lots, you have to start seeing it eventually I believe. It can only help your trading IMO, its certainly not going to hurt your results.

 

I have read it and watched the video too, and I liked it. He said himself that it took months and months to start seeing things, which, even though I have watched his video and read the book, it will still take months to see anything, but ofcourse its in people to expect instant results and not put any of the hard work in.

[evroom1 10]

Thanks, What was the name of this book you refered to? I have seen the best traders trade with little or no refering to a chart. I have not found ay real training on the subject as of yet. So any help is much appreciated. I looked at time Time and sales and it is part of this picture but not the only part. A dom that was set up in an entirely different fashion than the ones Iam used too make do the trick. Thankyou again for your post. It was that type of post I was hoping to get. This not meant to be an incidator vs. no incidator thread.

How what is it that you train your eyes to see. What noise do we want to avoid/

[Jumper 10]

PM me and I can give you some names of some books I know of, although I don't think these will help much, this kind of trading is something that is best learned from experience, hence why not many people can do it properly I believe, as you need to put in the hours before you start to "see" things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an expert on this at all, I just really like it and it interests and appeals to me, and its definitely a lost art.

 

As far as what you want to train your eyes to see, basically the big orders, big players, need to see what their intentions are and jump on board, also need to watch for acceptance, rejection, speed, absorption of orders, bids and offers being pulled, making one side of the book look weak when their intentions are really the opposite way etc. There are lots of things to watch for, seeing how price reacts to the bigger lots, determining whether its computers or people, watching for bots, fakeouts, icebergs. Million different things, which all take time to see, hence why I am no expert at this and there are no doubt much more experienced traders out there that know more about this, as I said I am very much still learning as you need to put the time in, simply because of the fact that finding anything on this topic is hard to come by!

 

I think it would be great if we could establish some sort of group, of people that are all interested in this, power of multiple minds would only accelerate the learning.

 

I agree with the indicator vs indicator, I'm not for, or against the use of indicators, whatever works for you, I don't really care, I'm not saying this is better than anything else out there, I think thats one thing that is clear, is that there are a million different ways to make money in the trading business, I know plenty of guys who use charts, some use P&F, some use EW, some use order flow/tape reading like we're discussing in here. Whatever suits you and makes you feel most at home is what will work for you.

 

Just my 2c.

[Tiobingo 10]

Charles Lindsay wrote a very interesting book in the 70's I believe, call The Trident Trade Strategy or something like that, if I remember correctly. He talked about a concept called 'ringing.' He kept a log of the daily OHLC and would put a paranthesis around any price that made a pique or valley. He developed some simple math equations that he would plug those 'ringed' price values into and came up with a very effective trade strategy. To this day, I utilize the concepts of his ideas when I look at my charts. Charts, being the operative word here, lol.. But he showed a way to trade without charts and without tape reading.

[evroom1 10]

I have only read the cliff notes on this book. It appears I already trade this way. But as with you i also rely on charts to get the job done. The trick is now how to figure out how one can see these lines in one axis.

I thank you for your reponse. The search continues.

[Tiobingo 10]

evroom1, I'm not perfectly clear on what your trying to achieve. Are you trying to trade without charts or are you trying to make money as a trader? Hopefully you can see that the objective might be different for those two choices. I trade and do quite well. My trade setups are based on price action. I then use my very select (and few) indicators to confirm the price action and to calculate my targets and stops. I incorporate a very simple trade mgt scheme (kiss) and quit most sessions with a positive result, moving my account forward at a steady pace. As my account grows, using very tight and controlled but simple money mgt, I scale up my position size over time, sticking to my very effective and simple to follow rules. That's it. My obejective is to make money trading. It's amazing what one could accomplish with simple, clear and concise objectives. I wonder about the motive of learning how to trade without charts. To make money? Or, something else?

[evroom1 10]

It always a wonder to me why is hard for some people to stay on track. I am glad you trade well. I am not interested in how you trade with charts and incidators. Not even a little bit for the purposes of this thread. I want to know how to trade without a chart. The subject has nothing to with your objectives. This thread is not about you. Get it?

I have seen these traders at work. Just numbers on a single axis, others from just spread sheets. They were making money but more importantly they had removed the elements of trading that cause most chart traders failure.

[Jumper 10]

What do you mean "numbers on a single axis"? Not sure I follow, by the looks of things, it seems as though you and me are the only ones who are wanting/do to trade this way, seems like a pretty tight-lipped subject

[evroom1 10]

Yes Jump it is tight lipped. Their can be only two reasons for that. It does not work or it works really really well. If you have any institutional experince you already know the answer. I am allowed to hang around and watch from time to time. The results are pretty amazing. They are not trying to sell me any thing with regards to training. Profit motive is here and I will leave it to brighter folks to figure that out. I know the answer.

With regard to a single axis as you know most of us have to use both x and y axis in order to see what is going on. They do not need the time axis at all. And it is not a range system. The big boys are smarter than that. That leaves y. Just the dome. I am missing the piece that allows one to see turning points on just that. This not a MK detla volume type thing either. Just price.