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Tams

Catalogue of Strats Which DID NOT Work

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somewhere else in the forum, there is a thread on

Catalogue of Strats Which Worked

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f106/catalogue-strats-worked-7750.html

 

well... let's attack the grail from both sides,

let's assemble a

Catalogue of Strats Which DID NOT Work

 

the other thread focus on automated systems,

I am starting this thread in the general trading area,

so that we can talk about Concepts, Methods, Tactics, Strategies as well as Systems.

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Let me kick off the discussion...

 

regarding the old adage... the Trend is Your Friend

 

 

one strategy that does not work is to go against the trend.

 

but, you might ask... how do I know the trend?

 

a kid can eyeball the chart and tell you the trend.

but we are not kids,

we over analyze things,

we can see the trees, but not the forest.

 

ok, a few people other than kids can see the trend too,

I am referring to the price action folks.

 

but not everybody are gifted to be price action traders, what am I to do?

 

 

May I suggest a moving average?

any moving average would do... simple, exponential, weighted, zero lag... etc.

 

what about the length?

try 20 period to start... then adjust as required.

 

try this analysis:

measure the trough to peak range of the moving average...

which range is bigger?

the down leg or the up leg?

 

ask yourself...

which leg has more profit potential?

which leg would you rather be on?

 

 

 

side note:

what not to trade:

instrument that has little volume

instrument that has little direction

they maybe good for investing/gambling, but not trading

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If you consider using moving averages as trading with the trend, then what is your opinion about "moving average crossovers"? Do they work for you?

 

you are welcomed to start a new thread on the subject.

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:bang head:

you are welcomed to start a new thread on the subject.

I thought this was a discussion, and you brought up moving averages.

 

I expounded on your comment and asked about moving average crossovers and your opinion of them....

 

Or what exactly is it that you are trying to discuss here?

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:bang head:

I thought this was a discussion, and you brought up moving averages.

 

I expounded on your comment and asked about moving average crossovers and your opinion of them....

 

Or what exactly is it that you are trying to discuss here?

 

I am trying to assemble a

Catalogue of Strats Which DID NOT Work.

 

if you think MA crossover does not work, then post it here.

if you don't know if it works or not, then start a thread to discuss.

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Actually tough to come up with qualified answers.

 

I'll offer this one buying 'oversold' selling 'overbought' markets based on oscillators (such as stochastic s) in trending markets.

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NOT working:

 

Trying to reverse a NOT working strategy and thereby producing a working strategy.

 

That's why this thread is pointless.

 

 

 

Some strategies that are not working:

(For the following assuming that "not working" means "producing loss")

 

 

Strategy 1.

Enter.

Wait until the position goes into negative.

(=inverse buy&hold)

 

Strategy 2.

a) Enter.

b) When positions turns increasingly negative increase position size (=try to average down).

c) When positions comes back close to break-even liquidate most of position (=realize loss).

d) Wait until condition b) is met again.

 

Strategy 2 is very frequently used obviously.

 

 

What can be taken from the examples:

Bad money management is a fail-safe road to loss.

(Point of entry is not that important if you want to loose big.)

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NOT working:

 

...Strategy 2.

 

b) When positions turns increasingly negative increase position size (=try to average down).

 

average down is no doubt the biggest sin of all.

 

I have yet to meet a long term survivor who uses average down as a strategy.

(it might work on a buy and hold long term investment, but even Buffet got burnt a few times)

 

 

a side note:

What is the quickest way to lose the "newbie" moniker? --- try average down.

Edited by Tams

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If you consider using moving averages as trading with the trend, then what is your opinion about "moving average crossovers"? Do they work for you?

 

using 'moving average crossovers' is definitely a strategy that DOES NOT WORK

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using 'moving average crossovers' is definitely a strategy that DOES NOT WORK

 

OK, but any insight as to WHY NOT, since moving averages themselves seem to follow the trend?

 

Kinda curious, as that's what I was looking to gain some further understanding about here....

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OK, but any insight as to WHY NOT, since moving averages themselves seem to follow the trend?

 

Kinda curious, as that's what I was looking to gain some further understanding about here....

 

lots of talks here:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/ma-cross-ranging-day-whipsaws-5995.html

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/fresh-first-crossover-strategies-7338.html

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/moving-average-crossover-volume-surge-2945.html

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I have yet to see any evidence that the Jack Hershey / Spydertrader way of drawing lines all over the place work. I would definitely put that in the does not work category.

 

:cool:

 

We could however add it to the does not work but people cling to it like it does category.

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This one is debatable - and also a long term trading subject - and also questionable in terms of what is long term, what parameters are used, what markets are traded.

The original turtle trading rules don't appear to work anymore.

They worked very well from the 70s to the 90s then have been pretty poor since. Variations on the model appear to work, however the original seem to have stopped working. (weather it works again in the future is the debate)

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OK, but any insight as to WHY NOT, since moving averages themselves seem to follow the trend?

 

Kinda curious, as that's what I was looking to gain some further understanding about here....

 

Could be because a lot of the time markets don't 'trend' (depending on how one defines 'trend' of course).

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Ok, so I’m still waiting to see whether anybody can provide any evidence to support their positions on strategies they deem to be ineffective.

 

I've been going through this thread and have seen claims being made that a certain method doesn’t work yet no rigorous data has been provided to support such a hypothesis. I thought evidenced based trading was the fulcrum of good trading but hey, what do I know. May be there is a floating teapot in outer space! :missy:

 

If I came across somebody making a claim that they think XYZ method is ineffective I would immediately ask them the following questions:

 

1. Did you understand the basis of the methodology?

2. If you did understand the basis of the methodology how did you know that you understood it correctly?

3. Did you test the method over large enough data set?

4. Did you conduct out of sample tests?

5. Did you forward test the method and compare it to the statistics produced from your out of sample tests?

6. Did you test whether the method produces trades better than random?

 

These are just a few that come to mind.

 

Testing new trading strategies is like going out on many different dates. You have to interview the woman before you allow her into your bedroom. She will either turn you on or turn you off depending on what answers she gives. It's the same with trading strategies. You have to interview your trading strategy so it can prove to you whether it's worthy to have your hard cash inserted into! Treat new methods with respect and give them a chance through rigorous enquiry. One day you may get lucky with one and it may end up being a cash cow for you :D

 

Peace..........

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Testing new trading strategies is like going out on many different dates. You have to interview the woman before you allow her into your bedroom. She will either turn you on or turn you off depending on what answers she gives. It's the same with trading strategies.

.

 

except those women who look so good you just throw your cash at them in the hope they will let you into their bedroom.

 

And then you marry them and they stop working!

 

(i know this is very un PC - i apologise for those who are offended)

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risking one dollar for a 50 cents target is definitely not going to work...

 

Not sure about that. As long as you are winning round 70% why not?

 

mathematically it sounds good... if life (ie trading) is a linear arithmetic event.

 

consider this:

 

trade#1= 0.50

trade#2= 0.50

trade#3= 0.50

trade#4= 0.50

trade#5= 0.50

trade#6= 0.50

trade#7= 0.50

trade#8= (1.00)

trade#9= (1.00)

trade#10= (1.00)

net = 0.50

 

 

1. if you win in the beginning, then lose later, you will break even.

but life is not linear... if you experienced multiple losses before accumulating enough "risk" capital, your predicament is a fast wipe out.

 

2. in reality... most practitioners would win some, then lose some, then win some again...

in the best case scenario, the trading career would ended up a statistically perpetual borderline break even event.

 

3. people increase their trade sizes (especially during a loss. ie average down)...

what happens is, whatever (meager profit and inflated ego) you accumulated at the beginning is not enough to cover the magnified losses later.

 

4. people move their stops and take quick profits... (I know, that is another story....)

 

 

there are more to it...

but this should be enough to stop any semi-intelligent newbie.

Edited by Tams

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mathematically it sounds good... if life (ie trading) is a linear arithmetic event.

 

consider this:

 

trade#1= 0.50

trade#2= 0.50

trade#3= 0.50

trade#4= 0.50

trade#5= 0.50

trade#6= 0.50

trade#7= 0.50

trade#8= (1.00)

trade#9= (1.00)

trade#10= (1.00)

net = 0.50

 

 

1. if you win in the beginning, then lose later, you will break even.

but life is not linear... if you experienced multiple losses before accumulating enough "risk" capital, your predicament is a fast wipe out.

 

2. in reality... most practitioners would win some, then lose some, then win some again...

in the best case scenario, the trading career would ended up a statistically perpetual borderline break even event.

 

3. people increase their trade sizes (especially during a loss. ie average down)...

what happens is, whatever (meager profit and inflated ego) you accumulated at the beginning is not enough to cover the magnified losses later.

 

4. people move their stops and take quick profits... (I know, that is another story....)

 

 

there are more to it...

but this should be enough to stop any semi-intelligent newbie.

 

No. This does not happen if you properly calculated your position size to give an acceptable risk of ruin. And you know what a high win rate actually is much better for risk of ruin than high R:R. It also tends to produce a smoother equity curve. This means you can actually bet larger with the same RoR as a lower %winner system

 

Sure you get streaks of losers but they are much shorter with a 70% win rate than with say a 30% win rate. Trying to find some tables for you but can't right now having a senior moment with google.

 

Edit: I should add I would probably want 80%+ to trade 2:1 risk:reward

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Picking Top/Bottom does not work.

 

if you have the power to profitably pick top/bottom...

you should also have the power to correctly pick the 6 numbers to win a lottery.

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i disagree with picking tops/bottoms and trading against the trend as "do not work" strategies.

 

why? because:

 

1. professionally, i trade profitably using both reversals and trend following strategies.

 

2. factually, Vegasoul (a highly successful hedge fund) has three major components to their strategy, of which one is trading reversals. their results and strategy summary proves that reversal trading is not a "do not work" strategy. for the summary of their strategy and results, its available in EurekaHedge (subscription based) and Cogent Hedge (free upon registeration).

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
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